FSAE: The Sacrifices We Make

[CWA]

I write this to you, almost as unashamed procrastination from a looming deadline, the subject of which I am struggling to remain interested in.

Today, for the past four hours or so I have been scrolling through the forums reading up on all the latest FSAE discussions (I'm following the 'Suspension Design' thread in particular very closely). What I've just described is a perfect reflection of my life since September 2011, including all of last summer, and my uni life since the start of this academic year. It's fair to say, I've been hooked on Formula Student.

Last academic year, the work I did towards our University's Formula Student team at least counted for one of my module marks, a group "dissertation". This year, I am back at the University doing postgraduate study, and have decided to continue being involved with Formula Student (much like a heroin addict 'decides' to take their next hit). I'd be a complete liar if I didn't admit that a strong reason I returned to University (the same one, in particular) was to be involved in Formula Student again. This year, Formula Student counts for nothing towards my course. And I can see that this year, just as last year, the rest of my studies will suffer, perhaps greatly, due to this distraction.

I have never been great at moderation. I see my dedication to the team as a reflection of the kind of person I am. In most stages of my life, there has always been one main goal that I have been working towards at that particular time. In relation to that goal, everything else at that time has taken a back seat, nothing is as important. Usually these goals have in some way or another been associated with cars or other engineering projects! In the future when I look back at my time in University, I'm sure I will only remember Formula Student, and not a lot else.

Where I say Formula Student highlights the kind of person I am, I guess I also mean it highlights what motivates me. Doing personal project work, I may often lose drive, and question why it's relevant, and what I am really gaining from it. Knowing that what I do for Formula Student is (at least, what I hope is) valuable contribution to a team's common goal means so much more to me, and helps me complete that work with a much better attitude, with a higher level of commitment, and to a much better standard.

Anyway, I'll try and get to the point, as I know this is a bit of a gay post and not very engineering-ey. Firstly, I would like to know, not just how many people on these forums are in similar situations, where FS is completely extra-curricular, but how many of these people often question whether it is worth it. I'm imagining the story of Formula Student for many people is very similar to what is conveyed by Matt Brown's Racecar, as it is for me.

What I'd also like to know is, in everyone's personal opinion, do you think it is actually worth it? I know that fundamentally, time you enjoy wasting is not time wasted. If Formula Student is to be considered this way, then yes, it is worth it. But I'm also thinking of how a prospective employer will consider how a student's time has been spent on the project. As one example (not indicative of myself, just hypothetical) if a student, perhaps capable of graduating with distinction in their course, achieves less, but has dedicated much of their time to a project like Formula Student, how is this viewed in industry when that student is applying for a job? I imagine the answers from various industries may differ greatly, from OEM companies to race teams.

I often see posts from professionals on this forum. Some posters have names I recognise (ClaudeR, DougM, EdK, BillC, Ben, JTom et al), there are also some posters that you can tell have experience in some form of industry, usually just by descriptions of past experiences they have had. How valuable do you guys really see experience in Formula Student? Are there things you would like to see FS students have learnt throughout their time on the project which may serve as some compensation for the time it has cost them, time they could have spent on improving personal course-work and grades? Is there something that an FS student may have at the end of his/her experience that a 100% straight-A student may not?

To put this question into perspective, a lot of my postgraduate buddies question why I am again involved with the project this year, when it does not count towards my course. As you can tell, I have been asking myself the same thing! To put another spin on this question, might a student from a university that performs more successfully in FS events take more from the experience than a university that is often unsuccessful? How can a student doing FS ensure they get the most from the experience to help them in their future engineering career?

And to these same professionals, and others, how would the attributes I have described above be viewed by an engineering organisation looking to hire. Is admitting to being motivated more greatly by a team-based atmosphere regarded as important? Could my admission that I struggle to be motivated as much with personal research hinder me as a potential employee?

There is no way I can regret the time I have spent being involved with Formula Student. Even with the late nights, arguments, poor living conditions, and our poor performance at competition last year, I have loved it all. But until I move on to that next stage in my life, I will always be wondering if I made that magic 'right' decision!

I look forward to hearing some responses from you guys, keep up the good work http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[UW-P Kevin]

I am at a University that has all of our SAE teams as purely extra-curricular actities with only undergraduates working on the vehicles (no graduate engineering here). We actually have FSAE, Baja, Snowmobile, and an Aero team at our school. Since almost all of our team members start as freshmen or sophomores in college, I don't think there is much questioning if it is worth it by the students that actually dedicate time to the project. Everyone gets to work on what they like to do.

Being a relatively small university, we don't have all the resources that some of the bigger schools have access to, so we have to inventively come up with solutions to our problems. Granted, we don't place as high in the standings, we get a ton of hands on experience out of this and learning above and beyond what we learn in the classroom. Our university is touted for the "hands-on" education that every student comes out of here with, but the extra in developing a vehicle and having designs fail that need to be fixed gives the extra leg up over most of the graduates.

It seems as though companies that hire our university's engineers like to hire students in SAE competitions because of the extra effort that they put toward a team project, even though the grades suffer somewhat. I know of a student on our team that got a Co-op based off of his experience even though he had one of the lowest GPA's among the candidates for the position. It helps.

[Matt S]

As a student of the University of Calgary (Alberta, Canada, for those not familiar), I can relate to your current situation with regards to the team. At the U of C, students receive no extra credit for participating in FSAE, and I'd be lying if I said that my time on Formula has not impacted my grades in a negative way. That being said, there are many academic benefits to be gained from the type of problem-solving encouraged in FSAE. As a senior member of the team, I spend a lot of my time educating younger members on vehicle dynamics, fluid mechanics, etc. and I've found that one of the best ways to reinforce one's own understanding of a subject is to teach it to others.

I am currently on a work term for a local engineering firm and I distinctly remember being told by my supervisors that seeing FSAE on my resume instantly made me a more viable candidate for the position. I may have been lucky that the engineers in charge of reading my resume were aware of the FSAE competition and the benefits that it provides to young engineers. However, if it had been an individual from a HR department that had read my resume, or an engineer not familiar with the competition, perhaps they would not understand the benefits offered by participating in FSAE.

I definitely understand your thoughts regarding the merit of participating in FSAE, and especially your doubts with continuing. Once crunch time hits in mid-may (we go to the Lincoln competition in late June), I've seriously contemplated leaving the team and enjoying the rest of my summer. I've also found myself at the beginning of September wondering where my summer has gone, only to realize that I spent half of it at the shop. Every time I start to have second thoughts, I think about what makes FSAE so important to me. Is it designing and building a race car? Yeah. Is it the valuable practical experience gained? Sure. Is it getting to meet and work with awesome people who share your interests? Absolutely. Is it getting to spend a few days surrounded by like minded people, with the smell of gasoline in the air and a sweet race car soundtrack? Definitely.

I guess it comes down to finding a reason behind why you choose to participate in FSAE. For me, I can't help but cite this video as best explaining my reasons.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJIWdLvUmcg

[Jon Burford]

I hear you,
I actually studied physics so FS was worth absolutely nothing to me from a grades perspective. I spent 3 years attending formula student most heavily in my second and third years. I managed to get a physics BSc project which was loosely based on FS, although it really had nothing to do with it.
I think you will find a lot of people did it and who are doing it for Love.
Matt, that's a good one,
this is my favourite

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGaYz5aLegc
Climb Dance

[Owen Thomas]

I think you are describing in yourself the typical FSAE addict. Obsessive personality, furiously motivated towards one thing in particular, and lacking passion elsewhere in life. As far as what you mention about team oriented goals being your biggest driver, I would echo that sentiment. I do not think it is the norm (or very common), but you are definitely not alone. Our program is also fully extra-curricular with no graduate students, and it is worth it (more below). I have learned and applied so much more about engineering during my time on the Formula team than in class that I am beginning to discredit a "regular" engineering degree. Obviously this is unwarranted, but the more I talk to other students and graduates not part of an SAE team the worse it seems to get.

Not being "in the industry", I can only provide my own opinions and experience, but I believe what you get out of Formula is entirely what you make of it. Having recently applied for and chosen an internship position, I can tell you that ~99% of employers around here haven't the faintest about FSAE. The way it was highlited on my resume was (sometimes) enough to get enough interest for an interview, but I did not do a good enough job of following that up. It certainly depends on the type of job and the industry it is in, but there were a number of occasions where I did not recieve a position in a design company because of "that C in ______", and it was fairly clear. One occasion in particular I can verify that a student with a higher GPA beat me out for a job, and I can definitely confirm that he is unable to think for himself, much less design rotating assemblies (I helped him with homework and briefly worked with him on our Formula team, it was painful). This does not irk me so much, since as an intern it is more likely that one will be performing pre-determined vibration analyses than actually designing anything, and also that it is my fault for not showcasing my experience, but it shows that GPA matters to some employers. Heck, some (larger) places have a policy to throw out applications below a certain GPA, and there simply ain't a thing you can do about it unless you know someone high enough in the company. In this case, where the potential employer is looking for good grades, it is your job to stuff your legitimate experience in thier face. Hopefully some of the people on this forum who have been in the opposite position can enlighten us all further.

TL;DR: I know that feel, bro. Also, GPA is important, but FSAE certainly can't hurt your chances.

[Cardriverx]

I will share my experiences. This is my 5th year on the team, and I am the president. I graduate in may. Our team is around 20 people, with a modest budget.

I will tell you that I have got my co-op thanks to FSAE. My experiences got me work at US Air and MoTeC, both great experiences (MoTeC being better as I am sure many of you can guess). I have met many people thanks to the team, and got to experience some awesome stuff.

If you can get past the initial screening, then yes I think it really helps. I can now say that I have had to manage a team of people with a fixed budget and completion date. How many new grads can say that?

We get no credit either, but if I did it all again I would be just as dedicated. Sure, my GPA suffered. Ill be honest, its a 2.5. But I have learned more doing this that I ever did in class, and ill make sure to explain that in interviews.

Overall, hell yeah its worth it. Heck, if you could graduate with a 3.5 and have been president of a team, you could probably get any job you want.

NOTE: I am applying in motorsports/car related jobs, so they know what FSAE is. Other industries, it may not help as much.

[Ben K]

Tbh I joined Formula cause I liked making things. Little did I know I'd end up liking race car engineering....

Ben

[Dash]

Storytime!

This is my 5th year on the team as well. Graduated in 4 years and now I'm back as a graduate student. The team is totally extra-curricular, although occasionally people do a DIS for 3 hours credit. The main reason I returned to do graduate school was to work on this project. I really couldn't care less about getting a masters degree - I just want to drive these cars! As others have said, I've thought about quitting a few times ( especially after we didn't finish building the car in time my junior year because the team fell apart), but I always remember how fun it is to drive the cars and the feelings you get at competition when you are doing good.

When I went for interviews back in the spring ( before I finally decided I would do graduate school ), I remember the interviews being strange. People didn't really know what the project was about and I probably sounded like an idiot blabbering on and on about the project. One interviewer asked me about the project and then asked me what I do in my spare time. I replied " FSAE is the only thing I do " and they looked at me like I was a psychopath. Needless to say they didn't call me back, but its probably for the best. On the other end of the spectrum, we have run into people at football tailgates that ask about the car and think its the best thing ever and give us business cards to call them.

I'm hoping that I end up getting a job that is similar to FSAE. Small company, lots of design work, hands on fab ( or at least get to watch and see results ). Its a stretch, but I'm sure there are jobs like that out there.

Anyway, I think FSAE is worth it just for the memories. I will never forget doing motor swaps at 2am the day before competition, figuring out someone designed the steering rack mounted in the wrong way, passing people in endurance, or doing burnouts in the parking lot at 1am during finals and just waiting for the campus cops to show up like they always do.

[Jay Lawrence]

FSAE has helped my career thus:
2008 - got scholarship for engineering work experience (part of our course) at a powerplant
2009 - got powerplant job out of work experience
2011 - got offered an engineering job at an automotive firm (didn't take it, they weren't offering the right things)
2011 - got a job at a consulting design firm, working with 3 other people (all ex-FSAE)

In all of the above cases, the companies were only interested in my grades in as much as I didn't fail too many subjects. Apart from that, all I talked about in the interviews was FSAE.

Just be wary though, unless you can find something that is just as awesome/involved/passionate, you will probably find yourself wanting to go back to FSAE...

[M. Nader]

Well, I am from Cairo University (Egypt). There was no FSAE here and no one even knew what it was, i did, and informed some colleges and started the team (with some help from a friend who liked the idea when i informed him).

It was a 2 year process from then as the first year we didn't really know what we were getting into and thus had to stop in the middle, regroup and come back for our first entry the year after.

As you would expect the education system here is not 5 star (not even close) and the facilities in the country are very much sub-par, there is absolutely no industry here except for very small things and so what we were getting into is much more difficult than most would face. There is absolutely no respect for students, machine workers mock you, professors are pretty much power hungry and with some if you as much dare as to ask to have a look at an exam mark you will lose coursework! and absolutely no one outside of your school would hear anything regarding FSAE and no industry owner will really care (as such skills are not of value in our country), i think most FSAE graduates are still unemployed or employed working in sales. And no student is allowed to do any machine/fabrication work, at school it is not allowed and outside of the school no one has the courage, time or the motive to teach. Actually for us to make FSAE work we were lucky enough to have (earn) the support of a few respected and in-authority professors in our school (the dean and his vices basically) and without those we would have been nowhere. so FSAE was 100% extra curricular for me. and the thing is in FSAE you wouldn't just be challenging the already existing mentality of elders but also students, nearly all of our team didn't agree that we should even try and do the actual machining of our parts and fought me long and hard and in the end i had to concede as i was outnumbered.

I spent my 2 years building and working on FSAE and i would say absolutely nothing else, i rarely studied and i used work from FSAE to present my final graduation project (and no one from the supervising board dared to ask me a single question as they didn't know what the hell i was talking about and didn't want to embarrass themselves), i rarely slept and was dedicated enough to lose nearly 30 pounds just to be in contention to driving our car in comp when it was running (it didn't run http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ). and i (or anyone in the team) have had 0 credit for doing so, not even a recommendation letter from our supervising professor who worked directly with me. and the team leader (who helped me start the whole thing) nearly had his degree canceled by our school and a lawsuit against him made for a delay from the shipping company we dealt with in bringing our car!

I would not substitute my last 2 years in school for anything else, yes i could have had a higher GPA among other luxuries i would have enjoyed, and yes i have had 0 recognition for the work but what i have learnt and improved upon personally is absolutely invaluable. FSAE was not a project, it was very much a lifestyle and a dedication. I gave up playing sports when entering the study engineering (i was in the national rowing champion team then), i gave up playing music somewhere during my studies, and for FSAE i gave up everything else http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif .


I have now graduated (with a B- GPA) and will have to serve 1-3 years doing compulsory military service for my country in which i will not do a single engineering thing, and in a country with no engineering work this is hardly a problem for most. Lurking around here i would say the experience i have had is comparable to only what the Indian teams face when starting the project. and this forum is the only place i know to have a decent engineering discussion, and that is why i keep coming back.

I remember in another thread someone was asking what to do to enter FSAE, and one response was "if you really what to know how difficult FSAE is, go to an unknown school and start a team, you will learn a ton" and i couldn't agree more.



Sorry for the long post http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Max Trenkle]

FSAE is a lifestyle (don't exclude Baja =P). When I got into college I quickly realized that the majority of seniors I talked to had never done any engineering design whatsoever... I was rather confused. Then I found out that besides the rare aspiring individual, anyone who had actually designed something came from Baja (the FSAE team was in shambles when I arrived, didn't even know Tech had it). Knowing that TN Tech's Baja team was basically number one in the world, I then made it my goal to ensure that FSAE would be number one too. At the end of Spring 2012 we basically had 2 members: the current president and yours truly. Now we have 20 members and we are brand new back in FSAE. My grades suck, my parents are unhappy, and I've lost some scholarship, but I don't really care, bc this was my dream from the beginning. Worth every mistake, hardship, and angry phone call from Mom and Dad. They're growing into it though. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[dmacke]

I do not receive credit for doing FSAE either. I love Formula because as many others have said it is a project. "Wasting" my time on Formula is easy because it is what I enjoy doing most with my time.

I think one of the most important things I got out of Formula SAE was the experience. The kind of experience that employers look for. I am from a decent sized school and have beaten out the "4.0 kids" from MIT, Carnegie Mellon, and other prestigious schools who have no design experience whatsoever and I personally think it was solely because of Formula. I am likely no where near as book smart as those kids but I was able to show that I have good problem solving skills and know how to get things done. Some of the members of our team have gone on to work for ProCharger, Pratt and Miller, Chrysler, and Continental Tire. I am also sure this is similar to many other FSAE teams.

As far as balancing school and Formula is tough but I had to teach myself to buckle down and get the homework done when I had to. You can't really use your Formula experience to get a job if they won't look at you in the first place because your GPA isn't high enough.

That being said I wouldn't quit Formula for anything. How many students that graduate can say that they've machined, laid carbon, tuned an engine, or driven a race car. These are all things you might not be able to do for the rest of your life. Ultimately why do Formula? Because race car.

[onemaniac]

Anyone can design a part but a system.
I think the systematic approach in design process is what FSAE is really teaching.
We're building race cars and that's what makes it so unique.

The goal of designing a race car is not simply achieving one of:
-the lightest;
-the cheapest;
-the prettiest;
-the most powerful;
-the most durable;
-the simplest.
We need to do them all at the same time where everything depends on everything and everything is a compromise. It's an art.
That's why I love FSAE (and because race car)
It's just something we can't learn from classroom.

[Will M]

Ditto on being asked during interviews 'what are your hobbies?' and then having to explain that FSAE was my job, extracurricular activity, service work, and hobby.
‘What do you do in your free time?’.
‘Oh, homework.’

-William

[Jersey Tom]

Preface: All opinions are my own and not necessarily shared by my employers, past or present.

I imagine we can all agree that job markets tend to be competitive. Everyone who graduates BS MechEng (or pick your favorite degree) has passed Thermo. They've all passed Statics, Dynamics, Materials, etc. So what is it that's going to set you apart to a potential employer and make you the desired candidate?

Is it a few tenths better GPA? My feeling is probably not. In my opinion, mastery of classroom topics does not prepare someone to hit the ground running in industry. To be fair though you do have to have a firm grasp on the fundamentals as they do end up being a foundation for doing higher level "real" work, so for one's own benefit it's advantageous to have good understanding of those topics.

Ultimately when a potential employer is evaluating you, how do you sell them on your worth? I think it comes down to accomplishments. What do you have on your resume as far as concrete, real world problems you've solved that illustrate and prove your talents? Formula SAE (and other college design series programs) are one way to do that. Is it the only thing you can do? No - I'd encourage having some other relevant internships, co-ops, or jobs as well to have a broader portfolio.

Is FSAE the best thing in preparing you to be a professional engineer? I'd say no there as well. There are a lot of benefits in learning practical problem solving while under the gun for time, but it also can teach some poor habits as well. Easy to get accustomed to hand waving things a bit, or making justifications based on "Well so-and-so says your camber curve should look like..." Also easy to get in the mindset that it's cheaper / better doing things in-house (where in FSAE there is no cost to the team for everyone's time) rather than farming jobs out, and it's often the reverse in industry. Those are the reasons I think it's important to have other "real job" experience as well.

Really I'd say one of the biggest advantages to FSAE involvement specifically among the CDS programs is the immense networking. I'd attribute my career path to date to FSAE involvement mainly due to the networking aspect - and indirectly I know it's helped other people get jobs that way. Entirely possible I would have had a good, alternate career path without it - but probably not this one.

Bottom line - do I think FSAE is a good thing to be involved in? Yes, absolutely. Do I think proven extracurricular work experience is what really sets entry level candidates apart more than GPA? Yes, that's my gut feeling - though you really do have to have the classroom bit down at some level. Looking back at what my experience level was when I graduated, working for 4 years in an aerospace lab and machine shop gave me a lot of really good professional engineering experience which I still use and reference. FSAE "amplified" that in giving me a lot of focus on quick results, and boosting my self confidence as far as being aware of what I'm capable of accomplishing. Each by themselves were good experiences - together they were (are) really powerful.

[Charlie]

Won't write a book, but I could....

I was in FSAE for 5 years. When I started there didn't appear to be much potential for the program at my school, so we were not in it for the glory. It also didn't count for any credit in class, except if you were a senior. We were all freshman except for the team captain my first year, and the previous year they ran with a 2nd year car (possible back then). We had very little university support (no financial support). We managed to build a car that finished all events, 34th overall I think. I was blown away my first year to see what other schools were able to accomplish.

Like many people I got hooked, and was fortunate to be part of a growing program for the next 4 years. There were stressful times for sure, but I don't really remember the times I doubted my participation (I know there were some). I do remember the satisfaction of the hard work paying off. FSAE is still the hardest I've ever worked and the proudest I've ever been of a project, so yes, I think it is worth it.

My GPA suffered dearly, I could barely get an interview as a result. But when I did get an interview, FSAE experience really set me apart and it led to a job and then profession that I could not have gotten without FSAE, period.

I can equally see an environment where someone works hard and does not see a benefit, but to me if you enjoy the project, that is enough.

[jlangholzj]

Everyone's hit this one pretty spot on the head.

One thing that I have noticed, is that FSAE attracts all kinds but they're typically pretty type-A personality. As a result we usually want to strangle each other at some point before heading out for a couple brews.

I can honestly say that I've pulled more of my *true* friends from FSAE and its experience. They're the guys that I would bend over backwards for at any given time of day.

Putting the 1000's of hours of modeling the machine work, engineering decisions, basically running your own small company and all that aside.....I don't think i could have found better "people" in the FSAE community or better friends on our team. I'm willing to bet that I would have been hard pressed to find that same experience elsewhere.