FS-G Hockenheim 2010 Competition

[MRT_Xii]

Please let us know what is going on!

Good luck to everyone.

Gabriel

[MRT_Xii]

Please let us know what is going on!

Good luck to everyone.

Gabriel

[TomF]

Hi Gabriel,

You can probably also follow the competition quite well on the organisator's website (http://www.formulastudent.de/public-relations/fsg-news/news-details/article/formula-student-germany-2010-has-officially-started/).

Glad to hear Delft got through without problems!

Good luck and lot's of fun!

Cheers

[DMuusers]

A quick update: Delft, Stuttgart, Darmstadt, Michigan and Munchen have passed scrutineering. Ravensburg still has to start scrutineering since they've messed up their scrutineering quiz which you had to take before hand. Today is the day of Business, Cost and Design and tonight are the finals of Business. Delft weighs in at 143.1 kg. I don't know the rest. I'm uploading pictures on my facebook as we speak and you should expect a link to them shortly.

[RollingCamel]

Since "Ze Rust Machine" has many problems and couldn't be even pushed to the scrutineerng tents so i guess i'll have time on my hand to take pics and post.

Btw, what a major embarrassment...

[DMuusers]

The first pictures are on my facebook. Disclaimers:


1. If you want a photo deleted send me a pm (either here on on facebook) stating with a link to the photo why you want it deleted. IF you've got a good reason (which I will decide upon) I will delete the photo.
2. If you want an HD version of a specific photo send me a pm either here or on facebook. I will reply as soon as possible.
3. If you want to use one of my photos for commercial use (websites, news articles or any other kind of media), send me a request before you use it. I will reply if you can. (Don't worry, 99/100 times you can http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

FSG PT.1: http://www.facebook.com/photos...9&id=100001079321504 (http://www.facebook.com/photos.php?id=100001079321504#!/album.php?aid=16929&id=100001079321504)
FSG PT.2: http://www.facebook.com/photos...1&id=100001079321504 (http://www.facebook.com/photos.php?id=100001079321504#!/album.php?aid=16931&id=100001079321504)
FSG PT.3: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=l...3&id=100001079321504 (http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/album.php?aid=16933&id=100001079321504)

A last note; if you have any requests of stuff to take pictures off, please let me know!

[Racingchef]

The first results are published.

FSE Cost Event Top 3 are Stuttgart U, Zwickau UAS and Bratislava U. I can't remember who's first. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jan Helbig
FSG Scoring

[jerry_tung]

do you guys weight with full gas tank in FSG? I think DUT was 137 at FS.

[TomF]

Yes,

At FSG you first go to the fuel station and then you get weighted, so these are the wet weights of the cars.

[Racingchef]

New results:

Winner FSE Cost: Bratislava U
Winner FSE Presentation: Stuttgart U
Winner FSC Presentation: Freiberg TU

Design Finalists:
Stuttgart U
München TU
Ann Arbor UMI
Graz TU
Ravensburg DHBW
Karlsruhe KIT
Wiesbaden UAS
Zwickau UAS

Don't wait for other results tonight.

Cheers

Jan Helbig
FSG Scoring

[TraderJoe]

Apparently there is a guy writing down all the results:

http://twitter.com/FSG2010spy

And boy, he is fast!

[exFSAE]

Any unofficial dynamic results?

[jerry_tung]

some updates from mracing blog
http://mracingfsae.blogspot.com/

[TraderJoe]

FSG2010spy at Twitter posts live results... and damn that guy is fast...

[TMichaels]

The night endurance was awesome!

Don't forget the livestream.

Regards,

Tobias

[exFSAE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TraderJoe:
FSG2010spy at Twitter posts live results... and damn that guy is fast... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea.. I kinda doubt there were teams running 20 second autocross laps..

[TraderJoe]

Jepp, I agree. Maybe he does some typos sometimes. The same info seems to go on http://FSG.poettner.de

[Florian]

my compilation for all the information you need:

official Results: here (http://www.formulastudent.de/events/event-2010/results/)
twitter collection of almost all important teams: here (http://twitter.com/FStotal/formula-sae-student)
livestream from FSG: here (http://formulastudent.tv/)
off the record live timing: here (http://fsg.poettner.de/display/endurance.php)

[bob.paasch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by exFSAE:
Any unofficial dynamic results? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Top four in Autocross:

TU Delft
GFR
Michigan
Turin

[GianVioli]

Right now the final four are about to come out... Stuttgart failed to complete the endurance, powertrain problems I think.

TUG had a suspension failure.

TU Munich was really freaking fast! the have been the only 1 so far to be under 50seconds!

Final Four are TU Delf, Global Formula Racing, Turin PT (a really nice surprise) and Ann Arbor University of Michigan.

Go to formulastudent.tv for live broadcasting!

[Yellow Ranger]

Results are in!

http://www.formulastudent.de/e.../event-2010/results/ (http://www.formulastudent.de/events/event-2010/results/)

1: Delft
2: Michigan
3: Zwickau
4: Darmstadt
5: RIT
6: Turin
7: Munchen
8: Oklahoma!
9: Freiberg
10: Stralsund

[thewoundedsoldier]

What Were the penalties against GFR for?

Congratulations to all of the American teams. Great showing!

[murpia]

The FSE results only show 3 cars out of 15 completing Endurance.

What was going on? Lots of flat batteries or 'normal' car failures?

Thanks, Ian

[vandit]

there were only 7 cars qualified for FSE endurance out of 15 and like the results show , only 3 of them finished.

Greenteam stuttgart really clean sweeped the night endurance.

[vandit]

Not more than 30 hrs ago i was in Hockenhiem as Event Supporter / Track marshal for 2010 FSG event. Let me share my experience from dynamic events from one of the toughest event in Formula student when it comes to passing Scrutineers.

&gt;&gt; Big bowl of flame during endurance from Regensburg's car and the rear of car was in flames in split seconds. Driver had no idea what happened behind him, but the track marshals in that area were very active and the bigger incident was avoided.

&gt;&gt; Fire extenguishers were used on 2 more cars, one on track and another one off track (i think it was Wisconsin) after it was called in for technical inspection in middle of endurance.

&gt;&gt; Taking the honours from Paderborn this year ,we saw left rear wheel flying off from one of the Munich's car during Autocross, only this time it couldn't find Pat Clarke.

&gt;&gt; I am not sure but i think it was car from FH Aachen that had some failure in their right front suspension and wheel setup which almost went into side pod after failure.

&gt;&gt; Tu Graz broke their front right rocker arm.

&gt;&gt; two other cars suffered adhesive failure between carbon fibre tubes and aluminium adaptors. One car had push rod failure while the other lost rear right wishbone which also resulted in drive shaft flying in air.

&gt;&gt; Amongst the other 'Did not finish' tag, there were failure from chain, Engine problems, batteries dying out, leakages etc etc.

&gt;&gt; Oil leakage from one of the car gave us hard time in cleaning Skid pad track.

&gt;&gt; Many times the cars were called in for tech inspection in middle of endurance after track marshals reported collecting hot bolts and other small parts off the track.

&gt;&gt; couple of black flags for not behaving on track.

Amongst the other highlights

&gt;&gt; We saw steering being broken during Scruti. only with hand forces.

&gt;&gt; Many teams were asked to repair their Firewall specifically with Aluminium tape , one of them btw was Regensburg.

&gt;&gt; Many teams which cleared Formula Student Silverstone were asked by scrutineers to make changes (and they were really important safety changes). One of the team had major chassis rule deviation and yet it was cleared in Silverstone.

...will try to put up more about event.

[Tropenk]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by murpia:
The FSE results only show 3 cars out of 15 completing Endurance.

What was going on? Lots of flat batteries or 'normal' car failures?

Thanks, Ian </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Ian,

We (Zurich) did not finish due to a slack joint in the right accumulator containment. It wasn't even the high voltage cable but the CAN signal from the voltage measurement inside the box... "Unfortunately" we follow a safe strategy and disconnect the box whenever something "odd" happens...

Zwickau did not finish due to a suspension failure. A small part at the bellcrank broke.

I think UAS Deggendorf (Fast Forrest) did not finish due to an engine failure. But I'm not sure. They only run on one engine due to a failure (overheated) prior to the endurance.

Hatfield was shown the black flag, due to the 133% rule. They run on Pb accumulators and after the driver change the car got slower and slower.

Aachen RWTH (Ecurie Aix) did Skid and Acc but no AutoX.

All the other Teams did none of the dynamics due to several reasons.

None of the car did have a real problem with flat batteries. Stuttgart said that they used all the energy and were not able to run just one more lap http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif In my opinion just perfect engineering, like their overall result...

Cheers, Yves

[bob.paasch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thewoundedsoldier:
What Were the penalties against GFR for?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Late SEF.

We still have some communications/organizational issues to work on for next year. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Bemo]

Our HV accumulator was fine. In fact our LV accumulator was low. That was the reason why our driver got faster during the last laps instead of "carrying the car home".

We are so glad about our success. Special thanks to the electric team from Zwickau. Without their help on Thursday night we propably wouldn't have been able to take part in any dynamiv event!

The night endurance was just awesome. I guess no one who was there will ever forget our glowing brake discs ;-)
It was a shame that Zürich and Zwickau couldn't finish otherwise it would have been a very close competition.

[Jon Oneill]

Where are the pictures guys. I'm desperately waiting to see them.

We had a few guys stay up and watch the whole thing. It was excellent to see such consistent times accross the whole of the endurance event. I think 1/2 the feild were well into the 50's.

What was the story with the TU fast penalty? None of us can work out why they finished that far down the order in the enduro, after such a consistent performance.

All of the last 10 cars had us all speechless. It was amazing to see such consistent times and all the pilots we're incredible. We'll be spending much more time training drivers over the next few months.

[TraderJoe]

TUfast was running out of order in endurance - 2 minutes penalty.

[DMuusers]

I'm working on the pictures guys, I was going to do it after the endurance, but we won so I was celebrating. They should be up within the next 2 days.

[JVC]

Apologies for the delay, I'm working as hard as I can to get the remaining pictures of Friday, Saturday and Sunday online, so keep an eye out on our website.

Julien

[MegaDeath]

Congratulations to Michigan, RIT, and Oooooooklahoma for their top 10 finishes! Great running by all of you!

[TMichaels]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vandit:
there were only 7 cars qualified for FSE endurance out of 15 and like the results show , only 3 of them finished. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is not correct, we had 8 starters in the FSE Endurance.
Stuttgart, Eindhoven and Graz made it through.
Aachen was pulled out during the driver change because of a damaged rim (chipping from a collision between wheelhub/brake caliper and rim).
Zuerich, as said, had a problem with one of the accumulator connectors.
Deggendorf overheated the remaining motor and decided during the driver change to only drive one lap to get efficiency points.
Zwickau failed with a broken pushrod.
Hertfordshire drained its batteries completely. They changed to lead-acid short before the competition and were not able to finish with that capacity.

This leads to a finisher rate of 37,5%. Compared to the combustion cars with exactly 55,5% this seems to be ok for the first year.

Regards,

Tobias

[thewoundedsoldier]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TMichaels:
This leads to a finisher rate of 37,5%. Compared to the combustion cars with exactly 55,5% this seems to be ok for the first year. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Point of reference:

The first Formula-Hybrid competition in New Hampshire had 9 cars show up, 6 attempt endurance, and 3 finish it.

This past year, the fourth for Formula-Hybrid, 24 teams showed up, 16 attempted endurance, and 6 finished it.

It seems the endurance-completion average stays below FSAE. I could be wrong, but I know from experience that it takes A LOT to develop a working electric and/or hybrid powertrain. Such development takes away from time to focus on the details that get a car through the endurance event.

Formula-Hybrid saw a couple teams using lead-acid as well. What's up with that? I also remember there was a team that weighed in at 1,000 lbs!

[vandit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TMichaels:

This is not correct, we had 8 starters in the FSE Endurance.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My apologies for the wrong information.

[TMichaels]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thewoundedsoldier:
It seems the endurance-completion average stays below FSAE. I could be wrong, but I know from experience that it takes A LOT to develop a working electric and/or hybrid powertrain. Such development takes away from time to focus on the details that get a car through the endurance event. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the teams just need some time. We had 15 teams and only one of them, Hertfordshire, developed a full electric car before. Just let the teams make their experience and let's see what happens during the next years of FSE.
I think the finisher rate of the FSE cars will be above the finisher rate of the combustion cars in about two years. Should also heavily depend on the number of first-year-teams.

Regards,

Tobias

[thewoundedsoldier]

It also seems like a contributing factor is that the electric and combustion races are held in the same competition. 9 of the 15 FSE universities had sister FSC teams. This should lend itself to growth as more and more universities will want to grow their programs, and it is not a big hassle because the cars are going to the same track on the same weekend.

Wish there was a similar setup in the States.

[Tropenk]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by thewoundedsoldier:
I could be wrong, but I know from experience that it takes A LOT to develop a working electric and/or hybrid powertrain. Such development takes away from time to focus on the details that get a car through the endurance event.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I absolutely agree with you that it takes a lot to develop a working powertrain. But I don't think it depends on the kind of engine you use. Even if we encounter this year some major problems (mainly insulation faults and overheating problems) with our d.c. motors. From the last four years of FSAE I remember that we did have at least one major problem with the drivetrain each year.
In a nutshell, I think that the same rules of thumbs as with i.c. engines lead to success: get as much test time as possible by finishing the car early and keep it simple.

As Tobias already said, I think too that the reliability of the FSE cars will increase as the teams gather more and more experience with it. The restrictions regarding the drivetrain are, at least until now, somewhat weak. Basically you can use any engine you find on the market. This leads to a broad possibility of concepts. The lessons learnd by the teams combined with the first results of pure electric concepts in Silverstone and Hockenheim will be a good starting point for the next season.

I really looking forward to see electric cars competing directly with the hydrocarbon ones. Actually, this week starts the first event were you can see this happen. In Austria (Melk) the two concepts compete directly with each other. Hopefully we will see some video footages from the endurance.

Yves

[TMichaels]

Awesome atmosphere at the FSE night endurance:

http://media.formulastudent.de/FSG10/Hockenheim/20100807Saturday/2010080722-14-186946kroeger/966190823_CRFaF-L.jpg

Regards,

Tobias

[Bemo]

I'd also agree that the reason for the lower finisher rate compared to the IC cars this year propably was, that almost all cars were first year cars.
In our case we got the car running much later than all the IC cars of the last years due to problems with the drivetrain. I'm pretty sure the finisher rate will increase when teams get more experienced in this field and manage to finish their cars as early as the combustion teams.

Another problem most teams had to deal with was the fact that everybody had to look for new partners for engines and accumulators, so several decisions could only be made quite late in the design process. For next year the team have these partners from the beginning of the season, so this should be better.

It will be more interesting, at how many unis two cars will be build every year. Although we are coming from a very big university we have to struggle to find enough new members to build two teams for next year. I guess other teams are facing the same problem.

[thewoundedsoldier]

At our school the Formula-Hybrid team lost a couple really strong members when they decided to do FSAE instead. I can see the same thing happening with Formula Student; many FSE teams will or already have become "JV" teams to the "big brother" FSC team at their uni.

If this is more than just our school's luck and is in fact a trend in FSAE and FS, then it doesn't bode well for Formula-Hybrid and FSE because all the experienced members who work on these green vehicles will just move on and take the more "lucrative" and "higher-status" positions on the FSAE or FSC teams. The green vehicles would be left with few returning members, meaning a new struggle each year to plant their feet.

What is ironic is that, IMO, there is much more engineering (including cross-discipline coordination and systems engineering/integration) that takes place on the green vehicles. There is also usually much more room to grow as a team member.

What are the opinions of the FSG competitors on this point? Any team agree or disagree, or have thoughts based on FSG2010?

[Bemo]

At FSE this year pretty much the opposite was the case. Most FSE teams (who still have sister FSC teams) were founded by former members of the FSC teams, who already left the team and took this new challenge.
The real question is, how this will continue. In our case two third of all team members are former members of the combustion team (like me) and we will all quit after this year. Also most of the completely new members will leave the team, as they have to finish their studies.

So the real problem is, that quite a lot of FSE teams of this year were quite old (almost nobody in our team this year is younger than 25) and people will leave the team to finish their studies rather join the combustion team.
We will see, if it is possible to find enough motivated people to keep both teams alive during the next year. My guess is that at almost no unis we'll have two teams. Most will decide wether they have an FSE or an FSC team. But that's just my opinion.

[Tropenk]

I think that the electrical cars will get a higher "status" as soon as they beat the IC cars in some (or even all...) disciplines. Until now, IMO the problem with the green cars was, that they have been too heavy and compared to the IC cars too slow. Last year there was a 500 kg(!!) hybrid car in Italy, just to name "a bad" one... Therefore the fame of winning an hybrid or green event wasn't that great. But with the big car companys pushing the electrical cars and the experience the teams will gain eventually, I think this will change. This year in FSE the level of the electrical cars was already pretty high. With teams like Stuttgart, Eindhoven, Graz and Zwickau showing outstanding performance, the electrical cars were considered as real competitors to FSC teams. The Greenteam of Stuttgart even run the fastest time in Acceleration overall! Their car made 0-60mph in like 3.4 seconds :O

It's a little bit too early to speak of a trend in FS, because this was the first year of the possibility to compete with pure electrical cars in Germany. But if the level increases just a little and if the E-Teams are able to compete directly with the IC cars, then the competition will be very interesting. And hopefully this will convince more teams to build electrical cars.

I agree that the green vehicles let much more room for engineering. The rules do not (yet) specify any maximal power nor any restriction on the numbers of engines. This leads to a very nice framework for engineering ideas. A lot of different concepts are possible (four wheel drive with wheel hub engines, two motors in parallel, on motor per wheel at the rear axle, one motor, with or without gearbox... etc.)

I realy hope that there will be at least as many E-Teams as this year in FSG 2011 and that they will also participate in FS UK 2011.

[TMichaels]

At least four teams which competed this year are only building electric cars: Eindhoven, Zurich, Diepholz and Mosbach. I think this will increase, because the FSE2010 has shown that these cars are quite competetive even in their first year. The electric drivetrain also solves some problems with testing regarding noise for example (however it also generates new problems regarding consecutive testing time).
The weight will also drop, because the teams had to take several assumptions because of the lack of reliable data. The efficiency scoring for example should give a good hint how much accumulator capacity is needed for an endurance for example, but don't forget to add a factor compensating for the efficiency of the cells http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Otherwise you may end up with flat batteries in the endurance.
I'm really looking forward to the development of the FSE cars!

Just to add a PR statement ( I do not want to open up a big discussion regarding the clean or not clean usage of electrical energy and efficiency factors, just assume the energy came from windmills): The maximum used energy of an FSE car finishing endurance equals 0.7L of petrol. Even Delft is not able to beat this http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Regards,

Tobias

[DMuusers]

But we're getting close :P It would actually be interesting to put the times from Greenteam or Eindhoven through the Fuel Efficiency formula, with a usage of 0.7 litres of fuel. I wonder what we would've scored in comparison.

[MH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TMichaels:
Just to add a PR statement ( I do not want to open up a big discussion regarding the clean or not clean usage of electrical energy and efficiency factors, just assume the energy came from windmills): The maximum used energy of an FSE car finishing endurance equals 0.7L of petrol. Even Delft is not able to beat this http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Careful Tobi! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

That PR-statement (like ALL PR-statements) is already quite questionable... transportation losses, conversion efficiencies, loading efficiencies maintenance of windmills, power relays etc etc. What about disposal of poisonous materials??

It's impossible to compare combustion with electric like this unless somehow you take into account the whole life-cycle. Even then...

But perhaps there is another way, for example carbon footprint or something similar. Anybody any thoughts on this one? It's interesting to discuss this topic, people have been struggling with this item for ages!

Furthermore I think that many many teams already have staffing and funding issues, let alone having 2 teams competing for the same resources. So I would recommend to choose Electric or Combustion and focus all your energy on that.

regards,
Miki Hegedus
Delft University of Technology 2001-2008

[TMichaels]

Miki!!!!! I said this with intention: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I do not want to open up a big discussion regarding the clean or not clean usage of electrical energy and efficiency factors, just assume the energy came from windmills </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

However, we should open up a new thread for discussing this. But beware: I have a killer argument consisting of two words: Deepwater Horizon http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Regards,

Tobi

[MH]

http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Agreed! And I also know your killer argument against nuclear power: Chernobyl.

But I'm going to counter that with a symbol: € (meaning how would people feel if their energy bill would be tripled?)

Looking forward to that thread http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.themagichedge.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/reduce-carbon-emissions-small.jpg

[RenM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TMichaels:


Just to add a PR statement ( I do not want to open up a big discussion regarding the clean or not clean usage of electrical energy and efficiency factors, just assume the energy came from windmills): The maximum used energy of an FSE car finishing endurance equals 0.7L of petrol. Even Delft is not able to beat this http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Regards,

Tobias </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, You have to consider that the e-teams were "cruising" most of the time through endurance while the fsc teams were pushing it really hard. Greenteam for example started with 2/3 of power and then reduced it much further.

And when it comes to in car efficiency the electric cars will always be better.

[Tropenk]

Well "cruising" is maybe a little bit unfair. The slowest E-Team endurance would still have result in 23th place in FSC (out of 35). And both Zwickau and we were running fast laps (at least in the upper half of FSC) until the DNF. Stuttgart would have reached the 12th place and without time penalty during driver change the 9th. The cars just seem to be slow due to the very little noise they made.

Furthermore the power reduction is exactly the advantage of the FSE cars. You can build a powerfull car for Acc and AutoX, then reduce the power of the motors for endurance and you will be still competitive with FSC cars...

[TMichaels]

Please guys, stop it! That is why I marked it as a PR-statement! This means by definition that this statement is at least naive, not correct regarding technical facts and definetely provoking.

So lets get back to the normal discussion.

Regards,

Tobias

[Tropenk]

oh, it just gets interesting...

No I agree, it's not the right place to discuss it. I started another thread in the "Open FSAE Discussion"

fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/667104615

looking forward to read some statements.

To get back to the original thread. I remember that someone wrote in a thread about the night race in Hockenheim. He absolutely liked the idea of night race but was displeased that none of the interesting things can be seen if electric cars are running. Well there was no fire from the exhaust nor any fire from the intake, BUT glowing brake disks!

http://media.formulastudent.de/FSG10/Hockenheim/20100807Saturday/13295047_nj57z#966191031_UESaG-A-LB

(foto by: FSG Ole Kröger)

[RenM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tropenk:
Well "cruising" is maybe a little bit unfair. The slowest E-Team endurance would still have result in 23th place in FSC (out of 35). And both Zwickau and we were running fast laps (at least in the upper half of FSC) until the DNF. Stuttgart would have reached the 12th place and without time penalty during driver change the 9th. The cars just seem to be slow due to the very little noise they made.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I didn't want to sound disrespectful. The cars were very fast, no doubt about that, but due to capacity or other issues the teams were not able to drive with full power.

I am wondering if a power limitation for the FSE cars will be introduced and how high it will be.
Without limitations it was huge fun to see Stuttgart on the straights.

[TMichaels]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RenM:
I am wondering if a power limitation for the FSE cars will be introduced and how high it will be.
Without limitations it was huge fun to see Stuttgart on the straights. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are currently discussing this, but no decision has been made until now.

@Teams taking part in FSE:
Your feedback regarding the rules and how they should develop is always welcome!

Regards,

Tobias

[thewoundedsoldier]

A similar discussion took place just after Formula-Hybrid in May:

http://formula-hybrid.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=319

[Xeilos]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TMichaels:

However, we should open up a new thread for discussing this. But beware: I have a killer argument consisting of two words: Deepwater Horizon http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If we are opening up a can of worms here I will chip in my 2 cents on this. But beware: I have a killer argument consisting of five words: Chernobyl and Three Mile Island http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[TMichaels]

We are discussing in another thread now. However, I don't get it. Where is the connection between electric cars and nuclear power plants? You need oil to use combustion cars, but you don't need nuclear power plants to use electric cars.

Regards,

Tobias

[Xeilos]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We are discussing in another thread now. However, I don't get it. Where is the connection between electric cars and nuclear power plants? You need oil to use combustion cars, but you don't need nuclear power plants to use electric cars.

Regards, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Continuing the off topic argument a bit further...

True, you need oil to use combustion cars, however sources for oil such as the Deepwater Horizon are not the only source for oil (in fact it is considered one of the more risky ventures even before the DH disaster). Also in case you point out something like the Exxon Valdez, there are other ways to transport oil as well.

The connection is the same between nuclear power plants (which generate electrivity btw), specifically the Chernobyl disaster and the DH (which 'generates' oil). Both have the same potential for a negative impact to the environment.

I was making the parallel, that:

1) Both can have long term impact to the environments, though nuclear has the potential to be far worse and longer laster IMO.

2) You cannot use a single case of a disaster in any industry as an argument (especially not a strong argument) for environmental impact.

And before you think I am educated in both these industries through Fox News (or the Canadian/German equivalent), I grew up in one industry and learned the other as a matter of trade.

[TMichaels]

The only thing I was pointing out is:
If you want to use common combustion cars, you need to convey and transport oil, no matter how.
But you don't need nuclear power plants to use electric cars.

I think that neither the nuclear industry nor the oil industry is a place where people with a clear conscience would like to work. Btw its the same for politics in my opinion http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Since we both seem to have a strong opinion regarding this discussion I will refuse to reply to follow up posts as it will not really be constructive but end up in a flame war as basic discussions always do.

Regards,

Tobias

[Semlo]

I find it a bit sad that we are discussing solar power vs nuclear power vs the oil industry here.
For my person I must admit that I am more interested in the engineering part of the FSE than in the "sustainability" of electric or combustion cars. I didn't build an FSE car to save the rain forest, but because of the engineering challenge and the new possibilities given by the rules.

Some suggestions concerning the FSE rules:
- including time penalties in the formula for the efficiency makes no sense to me
- a power limitation for the future is probably not necessary; weight of the motors is a limiting factor, and due to limited accumulator capacity the power is not usable for endurance anyway. I would leave it up to the teams to choose motor power and accumulator capacity. Our E0711-1 has more than enough power, which is fun to look at and good for acceleration, but for scoring maximum points overall, slightly smaller motors would probably be the better choice.
- a small amount of regeneration should be allowed without touching the brake pedal. I am thinking of a braking force comparable to the friction of a combustion engine. This would make the cars easier to drive for a driver who is used to a combustion car.

Some more comments:
- not having enough accumulator capacity to run the endurance at full speed was not our tactics from the beginning. Obviously we didn't calculate all the efficiencies right, especially of the accumulator cells. So it's a bug, not a feature ;-)

- I really hope that the FSE will grow further, it's a really exciting new field of research, where I sometimes had the feeling that the industry can learn at least as much from the students as the other way around ;-)
The problem I see is that not many Universities will be able to have two teams running properly in the long term; and I personally wouldn't recommend completely switching to the FSE, as for many students, a "screaming" combustion race car is just more fascinating and a bigger appeal to join a formula student team than an electric car.


After all, I loved the competition in Hockenheim and especially the night endurance. Thanks a lot for organizing this event!

[TMichaels]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Semlo:
I find it a bit sad that we are discussing solar power vs nuclear power vs the oil industry here.
For my person I must admit that I am more interested in the engineering part of the FSE than in the "sustainability" of electric or combustion cars. I didn't build an FSE car to save the rain forest, but because of the engineering challenge and the new possibilities given by the rules. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for that comment. This is the true aim of FSE. I should have never made that green "PR statement".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">After all, I loved the competition in Hockenheim and especially the night endurance. Thanks a lot for organizing this event! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, it was also great fun for the organizers to see the new class of cars running in the night endurance.

Regards,

Tobias

[DMuusers]

Just finished uploading all of the pictures I took at FSG. Disclaimers:



1. If you want a photo deleted send me a pm (either here on on facebook) stating with a link to the photo why you want it deleted. IF you've got a good reason (which I will decide upon) I will delete the photo.
2. If you want an HD version of a specific photo send me a pm either here or on facebook. I will reply as soon as possible.
3. If you want to use one of my photos for commercial use (websites, news articles or any other kind of media), send me a request before you use it. I will reply if you can. (Don't worry, 99/100 times you can http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Enjoy!

FSG PT.1: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=l...1079321504&aid=16929 (http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/album.php?id=100001079321504&aid=16929)
FSG PT.2: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=l...1079321504&aid=16931 (http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/album.php?id=100001079321504&aid=16931)
FSG PT.3: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=l...1079321504&aid=16933 (http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/album.php?id=100001079321504&aid=16933)
FSG PT.4: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=l...1079321504&aid=17383 (http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/album.php?id=100001079321504&aid=17383)
FSG PT.5: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=l...1079321504&aid=17388 (http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/album.php?id=100001079321504&aid=17388)
FSG PT.6: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=l...1079321504&aid=17389 (http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/album.php?id=100001079321504&aid=17389)
FSG PT.7: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=l...1079321504&aid=17390 (http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/album.php?id=100001079321504&aid=17390)
FSG PT.8: http://www.facebook.com/?ref=l...1079321504&aid=17391 (http://www.facebook.com/?ref=logo#!/album.php?id=100001079321504&aid=17391)

That's it for me this year, but don't worry, next year I'll be back with pictures of FSUK 2011 and FSG 2011