Suzuki GSXR600 & MoTeC M400 problem [Archive]

Kirk Feldkamp

01-02-2013, 09:12 AM

What mode are you using (7, hopefully)? What's your CRIP set to? They're both set up as and wired to be mag sensors, right?

As you can see, your sync tooth is right in the middle of your missing tooth on the ref wheel. IIRC, they recommend *at least* 30 crank degrees of separation so that the ECU has time to pick things up properly at higher RPM. The problem is when they overlap it's not sure which half to give the sync tooth to. In the missing tooth modes, the sync trigger is there to indicate which one of the two crank rotations you happen to be on. It's also the point from which your CRIP starts counting. On the GSXR's, it's common to relocate the trigger pin up on the cam to the opposite side for just this reason. Drill a new hole (still press fit) on the other side and push it in. Voila! It doesn't need to be exact, but it's nice if you do it so that it's repeatable somehow from cam to cam (spare engines and such). That way you don't have to change the CRIP every time you swap engines. You can also just write the crip on the engine, but it's just easier if you're consistent.

-Kirk

spyro

01-02-2013, 09:17 AM

Thank you for your fast reply.

This is our Ref/Sync sensors setup:

http://i.imgur.com/DlZXf.jpg

Regards,
Oscar

Kirk Feldkamp

01-02-2013, 09:43 AM

Although I agree those look right, try flipping your edge polarities. That's a similar CRIP to what I have in an old file, except the edge polarities were flipped. Our wiring may have been flipped though. Keep in mind the CRIP is the number of crank degrees between the sync tooth and TDC(compression) on #1. You'll need to confirm this visually on the engine. That shouldn't effect sync status though, just timing.

If you hit F1 while on the mode setup, and go to Mode 7, you'll see they recommend you have the tooth ratio set to 50. You've got it set at 90. That would mean it's expecting to find the missing teeth much later than the reality would suggest. You can learn more about the tooth ratio by hitting F1 on that setup parameter too.

-Kirk

Owen Thomas

01-02-2013, 09:50 AM

Knee-jerk reaction is that your cam sensor is wired backwards. Should get +ve voltage when the tooth is approaching. I would check the trigger setting too (rising/falling), and make sure it is consistent with your signal. I have seen both these problems in the past on an F4i.

Just found this page (http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/pickups.htm) which has a good run-down on what I'm describing. Wish I had seen that two years ago...

spyro

01-02-2013, 09:59 AM

Great, we'll be working on this in a few days.

Will post results here. Thank you VERY much. If you're visiting Spain for some reason, let me know it ;-)

Kirk Feldkamp

01-02-2013, 09:59 AM

Owen, you can choose to trigger off either the rising or falling edge on the Motec ECU's. It shouldn't matter how it's wired in this case, as you can adjust your settings accordingly. The cam is definitely 'rising' based on the scope capture.

It's not like I do this every day, so I have to sort of relearn the details every time I do it again. I think I'd want to trigger off the falling edge on that ref though. The missing teeth mean it doesn't provide a clear, sharp crossing for a rising trigger. I'd rather trigger off the back edge of the first tooth after the gap so it gets a clear crossing.

-Kirk

spyro

01-02-2013, 10:01 AM

Originally posted by Owen Thomas:
Knee-jerk reaction is that your cam sensor is wired backwards. Should get +ve voltage when the tooth is approaching. I would check the trigger setting too (rising/falling), and make sure it is consistent with your signal. I have seen both these problems in the past on an F4i.

Just found this page (http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/pickups.htm) which has a good run-down on what I'm describing. Wish I had seen that two years ago...

Well, but that can be fixed selecting Rise of Fall consequently... right? Isn't that option for this?

EDIT: Kirk was faster than me http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kirk Feldkamp

01-02-2013, 10:06 AM

In summary, I'd start by leaving the sync trigger as it is, swap the ref trigger to falling, and set the tooth ratio to 50.

Hopefully it should work given the spacing between the sync crossing and the falling edge of the ref after the missing teeth.

-Kirk

spyro

01-02-2013, 10:12 AM

I'm going to test that right now. BRB.

Owen Thomas

01-02-2013, 10:13 AM

Yes, I was mentioning that the wires should be checked for consistency (crank vs cam). Definitely easier to change a setting than the wires, though.

Also - and I could be wrong here - but it looks like the crank is rising edge and the cam is falling (which is why I suggested flipping the wires).

EDIT: Man you guys are quick. I'm 3 posts behind!

spyro

01-02-2013, 10:27 AM

No luck.

Do the injection maps have something to do with this? Perhaps those I have are too basic...

Kirk Feldkamp

01-02-2013, 10:33 AM

Nope sync status has absolutely nothing to do with the maps. In fact, injection and ignition don't operate until sync is achieved.

Next thing to look at are the ref/sync mag levels (volts). What do you have in those tables?

-Kirk

spyro

01-02-2013, 10:39 AM

This is the capture now. I've changed the ref to Fall, as you suggested.

http://i.imgur.com/AsMwx.jpg

This is the error log:

http://i.imgur.com/ZBiaC.jpg

Guess I will have to modify the cam sensor as you said first

spyro

01-02-2013, 10:40 AM

Originally posted by Kirk Feldkamp:
Nope sync status has absolutely nothing to do with the maps. In fact, injection and ignition don't operate until sync is achieved.

Next thing to look at are the ref/sync mag levels (volts). What do you have in those tables?

-Kirk

Everything is filled by 0s...

Kirk Feldkamp

01-02-2013, 10:56 AM

Interesting, did you rewire the ref or just change the setting? The waveform flipped in the capture.

The trigger voltage table is mostly there to reject errors caused by noise. For now, the zero table should probably work because everything looks clean. I was more concerned that someone might have set the "arming voltage" above what you're seeing, but it appears not.

Where did you get the CRIP of 109? It's curious to me because that's basically what the CRIP was on the GSXR's that I have the files for, and I could have sworn they had the cam tooth moved. I don't have any captures that correspond to these files though, so unfortunately I can't confirm where the sync tooth sat in the cycle. My guess is the two events overlapping is still the problem.

-Kirk

Kirk Feldkamp

01-02-2013, 11:21 AM

Oops, my mistake. The CRIP starts from the first tooth after the missing teeth in mode 7... not from the sync (duh). The sync just separates the two crank rotations into separate pieces, and tells the ECU to start counting after the next missing tooth event. In other words, the CRIP should always be the same assuming you use the same ref wheel (CRIP was 105 in our stuff) and put the sync tooth on correct side so that the 105 holds true. The Motec FSAE Day 1 ECU Seminar notes have some good info starting on page 16: http://www.motec.com/downloads/downloadseminars/

I just confirmed with the recent engine leader that they needed to move the cam trigger to get it to work. It shouldn't take long, no more than an hour or so from start to finish if you've done it before.

-Kirk

spyro

01-02-2013, 11:32 AM

You're a genius. Seriously.

I had to left the laboratory half an hour ago, but I'll be working on this in a few days. I'll post the results http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It sounds really hopeful and I can't wait to test it!

THANK YOU so much!

spyro

01-02-2013, 11:33 AM

Oh, and about this:

Where did you get the CRIP of 109? It's curious to me because that's basically what the CRIP was on the GSXR's that I have the files for, and I could have sworn they had the cam tooth moved.

We measured it yesterday :>

Kirk Feldkamp

01-02-2013, 11:35 AM

Glad to help. Let us know how it goes.

-Kirk

jlangholzj

01-02-2013, 12:12 PM

Originally posted by Kirk Feldkamp:
Oops, my mistake. The CRIP starts from the first tooth after the missing teeth in mode 7... not from the sync (duh). The sync just separates the two crank rotations into separate pieces, and tells the ECU to start counting after the next missing tooth event. In other words, the CRIP should always be the same assuming you use the same ref wheel (CRIP was 105 in our stuff) and put the sync tooth on correct side so that the 105 holds true. The Motec FSAE Day 1 ECU Seminar notes have some good info starting on page 16: http://www.motec.com/downloads/downloadseminars/

I just confirmed with the recent engine leader that they needed to move the cam trigger to get it to work. It shouldn't take long, no more than an hour or so from start to finish if you've done it before.

-Kirk

see if this works or not, but I'm not entirely sure that conflicting cam and crank signals are the problem. It'd be more of a rise/fall issue.

there's already been some help, so I'll just throw in $.02 to give you some more options for troubleshooting.

1) take your plugs out. I see you're trying to start the thing right off the bat, which....if everythings kosher, would be great. Taking the plugs out will give you a much more consistent REF signal until you actually get a sync.

2)as kirk mentioned, mode 7 (the same our R6r uses) Count the number of degrees from the missing tooth "pulse" (or lack of) AFTER the sync signal is received.

3) I'm not entirely sure if your cam/crank signals are conflicting, our R6 has the same topology and our signal looks like yay:

http://i260.photobucket.com/albums/ii35/jlangholzj/sdsu_ref_sync_zps2aa11ce6.png

we're also on rise polarity. Another thing to look at is make sure your Arm/trigger voltages make sense for what you're doing. ie: rise should have a arm lower than the trigger fall would be vice/versa.

so from all that, yes i'd say you should be on fall polarity.

4) sanity check for the CRIP. Find where your TDC exhaust, next time you come up to TDC should be compression. Pop the timing cover off, and rotate that sucker manually, count the number of teeth your at AFTER you hit the missing tooth until TDC compression. EDIT (just saw that you "measured" it...not sure how you did it, but that was how i did! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

^^thats not your problem though. Even with a bad CRIP, you should still sync. It would just fire at the wrong point of the cycle. So until you can get a sync, there's other forces at work here.

also for filter tables:
ref filter=>

rpm-usec
0-124
500-124
1000-134
3000-80
6000-40
10000-24
20000-12

ref mag level

rpm-volts
0-.2
500-.4
1000-.8
1500-2.2
2000-3
3000-6
6000-9
and on up should be 9

i wish i could give you something for the sync signal but do some looking on motecs forums, you should be able to find something

both of these are important to have because it will tell the ECU what to filter in/out. mag level and the filter window work together to keep out the noise. Its possible that if you've got 0's across the board it could be picking up residual noise if you've got shady wiring or sensors going on.

also, clear out your errors, crank over and THEN pass the error capture onto us. I find it weird that you're getting a inj 1 error and duty cycle error when the motec won't even fire injectors or coils until its properly synced http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Loz

01-02-2013, 04:02 PM

There still seems to be confusion about the edge polarity of the sensor waveforms.

To clarify, the first image by the OP shows a FALLING ref signal and a RISING sync signal.
The second image shows a RISING ref signal and a RISING sync signal.

As others have already said, the ref and sync signals shown are effectively coincident and the sync sensor really should be moved so that it triggers in between two crank teeth trigger events and certainly well away from the missing tooth reference. If the signals are coincident (or even within a few degrees of each other), the sync trigger can occur either just before or after the missing tooth through inherant in-precision of the electrical signal and motion/compliance of the engine at cranking and low RPM.

Before making physical changes to the system, it would be worth setting the Sync trigger voltage to say +-0.5V to make trigger occur earlier or later relative to the ref signal so there is more chance of getting a more repeatable ref/sync detection.

Cardriverx

01-02-2013, 05:20 PM

Spyro,

Post your most current ref/sync settings and the ref/sync capture so I am positive what you are using.

Actually, send me your current tune file because I want to look at your filter and mag levels.

Another thing I note is that the peak to peak voltage is very low, in your captures it is less than a volt. Is the motor cranking over at a sufficient speed?

Kirk Feldkamp

01-02-2013, 07:00 PM

Just for comparison sake, our REF mag levels last year for our GSXR were:
RPM 0 250 500 1000 1500 2000 2500 20000
V 0.1 0.2 0.4 0.9 1.6 1.9 2.0 2.0

These are what the Motec seminar notes I linked to above call the "arming voltage". Basically, once that voltage (absolute value) is reached, the algorithm will then consider the next 0V crossing to be a trigger event. Like I said before, it doesn't look like you have any noise issues (the first picture you posted where it's zoomed in is quite smooth), but I've been fooled before. The above table was for a K1-K3 GSXR, but the sensors didn't change to my knowledge on the K4-K5 versions.

Cardriverx, IIRC, the crank trigger wheel on the K4-K5's is pretty small, so I wouldn't expect a huge voltage to be generated during cranking. It's about 2"-2.5" diameter, not 4"+ like many motorcycle ref triggers that I've seen.

-Kirk

spyro

01-02-2013, 08:44 PM

Thank you for your help but I won't be able to test what you're suggesting until 3 days http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

And we'll I'm confused about the polarity of the sensors, since I was totally sure the first image were both RISE and the second one, after changing the polarity of the ref sensor, is Fall/Rise (Ref/Sync). Moreover I don't think there's a noise issue but ill try what you're saying.

The peak voltage is low and as you can see, it doesn't crank at a constant RPM since the ref signal is a waveform with a changing wavelength. But the engine used to start this way with the standard ecu.

Thank you guys, ill tell you more in a few days http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jlangholzj

01-02-2013, 11:24 PM

Originally posted by spyro:
Thank you for your help but I won't be able to test what you're suggesting until 3 days http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

And we'll I'm confused about the polarity of the sensors, since I was totally sure the first image were both RISE and the second one, after changing the polarity of the ref sensor, is Fall/Rise (Ref/Sync). Moreover I don't think there's a noise issue but ill try what you're saying.

The peak voltage is low and as you can see, it doesn't crank at a constant RPM since the ref signal is a waveform with a changing wavelength. But the engine used to start this way with the standard ecu.

Thank you guys, ill tell you more in a few days http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

its not going to crank at a perfectly uniform RPM. Thats why i suggested you pull the plugs....it should get darn close to even, and much faster for that matter. Should make your signals stronger

Loz

01-03-2013, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by spyro:
And we'll I'm confused about the polarity of the sensors, since I was totally sure the first image were both RISE and the second one, after changing the polarity of the ref sensor, is Fall/Rise (Ref/Sync)...

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/8774/tmjeoedited.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/708/tmjeoedited.jpg/)
The edited image shows the waveform the crank teeth are generating as the mag sensor passes a tooth. The missing waveform of the missing tooth is also shown in green.

The arrows indicate the direction of the wave as it crosses the zero amplitude (of the wave which is not necessarily at zero voltage). The signal amplitude is moving from high to low (i.e. becoming more negative) thus the trigger signal is falling edge (i.e. falling edge).

The arrows on the blue sync signal trace show the direction of heading as it crosses its own waveform zero amplitude (in this case they are both occur at roughly the same time and at zero volts). In this case the signal amplitude is increasing (i.e. going from lower to higher) thus the trigger signal is rising (i.e. a rising edge).

The trigger voltage setting can be used to shift the trigger point along the waveform either side of the default 0.0V detection value.

You must get these correct before proceeding further down the problem solving path. If not the ECU wont be looking for same type of voltage change as the sensors are outputting and it will not be able to detect the sensors (hence the ref/sync error).

Jonesy

01-03-2013, 08:29 PM

I previously worked with a m400 using a GSX-R k3 and k6. I know the triggers on these are different but what I did on the k3 was change the cam sensor to a hall effect and then check my crip with a timing light. Can't remember if the k4 was the same set up a this but it worked perfect on our k3.

Kirk Feldkamp

01-03-2013, 09:28 PM

That's an excellent graphic. I'm stealing it to show people in the future!

I've heard of people doing the hall effect sensor swap for the sync on the early Hayabusas too. From what I remember, it's so that you can choose the edge you trigger off of, which in some cases allows you to move the trigger event far enough away from the missing tooth event that it'll sync. Either way you end up machining something, so I guess it's a case of "pick your poison." By moving the cam pin, you don't have to source/buy/ship a new sensor, and the "machining" is literally drilling one hole.

The K1-K3 engines had an evenly spaced 8 tooth crank trigger. The K4-K5 engines had a 24-1 crank trigger. I haven't worked on the K6's and higher, so I'm not sure what's in those. The crank snout and cam chain are identical from K1 to K5, so the newer wheels swap directly onto the older engines. Back in 2003 when I first worked with these engines, I made an evenly spaced 12 tooth wheel and grafted it onto a modified trigger wheel hub (to retain the cam chain sprocket). The evenly spaced ref mode SUCKS to work with though, as you have to get the sync half way in between two of the crank teeth. It took some shenanigans to get it just right. The missing tooth modes give you a HUGE window in comparison!!!

-Kirk

Cardriverx

01-03-2013, 10:32 PM

MoTeC actually just came out with a new mode in the newest firmware that allows for the engine to run like this, call up motec systems east and ask about it (I forget the mode number). When I was working there we used it to solve the issue of having to swap to a hall sensor on the busa.

Kirk Feldkamp

01-04-2013, 09:10 AM

#68?

Cardriverx

01-05-2013, 03:10 PM

69 if I remember right. It is not on the help list in the software.

You may need the newest beta, pm me if you want it.

Originally posted by Kirk Feldkamp:
#68?

spyro

01-06-2013, 09:09 AM

Originally posted by Cardriverx:
69 if I remember right. It is not on the help list in the software.

You may need the newest beta, pm me if you want it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kirk Feldkamp:
#68? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is it safe to use a beta version?

I updated to the last firmware and I still can't see modes 68 and 69.

spyro

01-06-2013, 09:50 AM

Another question: does this engine need coil amplifiers? I've been told that but I'm not sure.

Kirk Feldkamp

01-06-2013, 10:00 AM

If you're using the original coil-on-plug units, yes. It's been so long since I've seen a stock harness, but the GSXR may have an external ignitor box... but I don't seem to remember it did (the original may be inside the ECU?). The Bosch "211" ignitor (http://www.microsquirt.info/Bosch_211.htm) is a 4-channel unit that will allow you to do sequential ignition. If you want to keep things simple and just run wasted spark, you can always just use the Bosch 2-channel unit, or just wire the 4-channel like they show in the picture on that link. Honestly, unless you plan on doing individual cylinder trims, wasted spark is just fine. Sequential ignition is pretty far down on the list of things to care about, and you'd want to have at least 10 other things nailed down solid before you would see the effects of of that level of fine tuning.

You can also ditch that style of ignition for a more "traditional" coil setup. For years we ran our GSXR's with a Saturn/GM coil off some street car. Sure, it's slightly heavier, but it's also potentially less expensive. It also doesn't require the separate ignitor unit, so it's perhaps slightly easier to set up. You basically use standard spark plug wires from the coil to the plugs. That said, almost any standard coil like this off of a 4-cylinder car can work too.

-Kirk

spyro

01-06-2013, 10:51 AM

It doesn't have an external ignition box. We'll have to buy amplifiers then :<

spyro

01-07-2013, 05:33 AM

Guys I think I broke something. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

No sensor is working now and they gives really strange values such as -35ºC engine temp and so on.

I managed to test the voltage on B16 which is the 0V reference for these sensors and it's giving 5V... It should give 0V, am I right?

Nicky

01-07-2013, 06:22 AM

We had this issue when the sensor 5V supply was left shorted to the 0V Eng(B16). Thanks to a team member who left the wires at the manifold pressure sensor uncrimped and without insulation. This blew the B16 pin, quite literally. On opening the M800, we observed that the track going to the B16 had burnt right through the solder mask.

Hope the issue isn't that as the cost of repairing is really huge. We now use the 0V Aux ground for all sensor grounds.

Kirk Feldkamp

01-07-2013, 09:04 AM

Did you weld anything nearby with the ECU plugged in? Haha. Been there... :/

Call Motec and talk to them about it.

spyro

01-07-2013, 09:51 AM

Originally posted by Kirk Feldkamp:
Did you weld anything nearby with the ECU plugged in? Haha. Been there... :/

Call Motec and talk to them about it.

No, I'm just silly enough to peel the crankshaft sensor cables to attach them to the scope and let them fly until they shorted.

You can call me a genius.

http://i.imgur.com/KjNtz.png

spyro

01-07-2013, 10:15 AM

I'm trying mode 68 and it says:

Requires active sync edge to land within missing tooth window and remain there. Not suitable for active camshaft engines.

So does it mean that I have to remove camshaft signal or something like this??

http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

jlangholzj

01-08-2013, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by spyro:
It doesn't have an external ignition box. We'll have to buy amplifiers then :<

yes!

call up motec and they'll get you set up with a bosch unit thats used on the audi's. This will screw with A LOT of things if you don't have them, along with the risk of frying something in the ECU. The motec's aren't rated to pull that much current in their igntion outputs.

But again, this isn't going to matter until you get a synced ECU

spyro

01-08-2013, 07:01 AM

We ordered the Bosch ignition module.

On the other hand, mode 68 shows Ref/Sync OK but there's lots of noise errors and It also says "No REF signal", even if the signal in every Capture is clear and the Ref signal is clearly seen.

Cardriverx

01-08-2013, 08:14 AM

Check your filter and mag levels for the ref sensor, read the help file for instructions on how to set the values up.

Originally posted by spyro:
We ordered the Bosch ignition module.

On the other hand, mode 68 shows Ref/Sync OK but there's lots of noise errors and It also says "No REF signal", even if the signal in every Capture is clear and the Ref signal is clearly seen.

Kirk Feldkamp

01-08-2013, 08:45 AM

I was guessing 68, but didn't really think it was right. Cardriverx said there's a beta version of the software that has what you need. Message him to get it, or call Motec to ask them about it.

-Kirk

spyro

01-08-2013, 09:10 AM

Originally posted by Kirk Feldkamp:
I was guessing 68, but didn't really think it was right. Cardriverx said there's a beta version of the software that has what you need. Message him to get it, or call Motec to ask them about it.

-Kirk

In fact we have that beta software; I've already talked with him. Mode 68 is for two missing tooth per cycle and 69 for one missing teeth, so I assume the correct mode is #68.

What a headache with mag sensor levels... I'm going to try them now.

Boffin

01-08-2013, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by spyro:
Guys I think I broke something. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

No sensor is working now and they gives really strange values such as -35ºC engine temp and so on.

I managed to test the voltage on B16 which is the 0V reference for these sensors and it's giving 5V... It should give 0V, am I right?
Check for continuity between B14 (0V Comms), B15 (0V Aux sensor), B16 (0V engine). If there is none, then yes you have damaged it and it will have to be sent back to motec to be fixed.
I'm also thinking that they should have connectivity to the Battery negative pin too, but not sure.

This is actually a safe guard built into the ECU. It will blow the track or something on the board before it damages any of the chips inside, hence it is cheap to fix. We've done it twice while I was on the team. One time it was repaired for free, another it cost us $40 or something.

In the meantime though, you can wire the blown pin wires into the others in order to work around it (Melbourne uni did this for over a year). Worst case wire it to the batt negative pin, but this is a last resort option to keep you running.

Kirk Feldkamp

01-08-2013, 08:26 PM

$40?! That's funny, because every time it's happened in projects I've been involved with (yes, I fried a M4 once), it costs a couple hundred bucks to get back in the game. :/ Yet another reason to live in Australia!

spyro

01-11-2013, 07:42 AM

Guys I bought the amplifier (Bosch Ref 211) and It's gone wild http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Now when I put the master switch ON, the sparks start to work in a 1-2-4-3 order even if don't touch ANYTHING. I mean, just put the master switch on and the coils start to work. Also the amplifier and the coils are ON FIRE, you cannot even touch them! They burn!

I captured the signal of the coils coming from the ECU and they receive a constant voltage. Isn't it supposed that I have to see pulses there?

Did I break the M400 again? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Owen Thomas

01-11-2013, 07:52 AM

Sounds like your ignitor (amplifier) might be wired up funny. Check it and re-check it, pay close attention to the ground. I'm not too sure why the MoTec would be sending a signal when the engine isn't synced though...

Keep in mind that the coils will be constantly firing while the engine is running, so the system should handle that just fine. Burning hot though... definitely check your ground and power wires.

spyro

01-11-2013, 08:08 AM

I'm checking continuity with a multimeter and WTF, it rings when I put one side on the battery + and the other on the engine earth ._____.

Is that normal? Everything but the coils seem to work perfectly http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

spyro

01-12-2013, 03:59 AM

Definitely amplifier's GND is making a short circuit, that's why battery's + side and engine earth are showing continuity on the multimeter.

Is it normal for the amplifier's GND to have 6.2V? I've already two amplifiers and both work the same way...

G.Arce

01-15-2013, 11:05 AM

Any news Oscar???

TMichaels

01-16-2013, 07:13 AM

Hey guys,
I have not read the entire thread, but back in 2008 when I worked with the Motec M400 on a K5, Motec told us specifically that the camshaft synch signal and the missing tooth signal of the crankshaft must not occur at the same time. At that time the Motec software was not able to cope with that. Therefore we just rotated the position of the trigger pin on the camshaft by 90°, which is done in an hour and that fixed all issues with respect to this.

spyro

01-18-2013, 04:48 AM

Hi again guys,

As most of you suggested, we've changed the position of the pin of the camshaft, so the signal are now NOT clashing:

http://i.imgur.com/qgR5f.jpg

Now we're only fighting against this:

http://i.imgur.com/IIUdz.jpg

And I'm not sure I have to deal with the Mag levels or with the Filter.

Any ideas?

Thank you guys :-)

TMichaels

01-18-2013, 06:50 AM

Now that looks way better.
First thing to check is that you have all your settings regarding the crankshaft trigger wheel and the sensor signal edges done right.

I should be able to have a look at the setup that we are running this evening. So in approximately 5hrs from now.

I will get back to you then, if no one else has posted the correct settings.

spyro

01-18-2013, 07:18 AM

I am sure I have configured them correctly... both are Rise edge :-)

Thank you buddy!

TMichaels

01-18-2013, 08:04 AM

I just noticed that your crankshaft trigger must be falling edge, if it is still wired like you have shown in the picture.

spyro

01-18-2013, 08:11 AM

Originally posted by TMichaels:
I just noticed that your crankshaft trigger must be falling edge, if it is still wired like you have shown in the picture.

You can find this picture on the 2nd page of this thread:

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/8774/tmjeoedited.jpg

I've also read a MoTeC seminar yesterday talking about this.. hehe

TMichaels

01-18-2013, 08:19 AM

What does that picture say? It does not show your setup.

I am pretty sure that your crankshaft trigger needs to be set to "falling edge". Though it has been quite some time since I read the definition for the Motec configuration. But there was a specific document talking about this on the Motec website. I will try to find it.

spyro

01-18-2013, 09:13 AM

Originally posted by TMichaels:
What does that picture say? It does not show your setup.

I am pretty sure that your crankshaft trigger needs to be set to "falling edge". Though it has been quite some time since I read the definition for the Motec configuration. But there was a specific document talking about this on the Motec website. I will try to find it.

The picture I posted right now is my engine with reverse polarity. After that capture I reversed the polarity, so it is now rising edge.

Btw I tried it with falling edge and I get the same two errors.

spyro

01-18-2013, 09:21 AM

I have also checked this:

http://i.imgur.com/Qcetj.png

Where is it supposed to be R1, R2, A and P values? I want to change them so bad!

Cardriverx

01-18-2013, 10:02 AM

You need to change your mag sensor levels, that is why you are getting the error.

It is in sensor setup - ref/sync setup

spyro

01-18-2013, 10:07 AM

Really? I've been fighting with this the whole day and the Runt error won't go...

Cardriverx

01-19-2013, 10:22 AM

You have a SyncNT error too, so you may have to mess with the filtering too. Do you get this error when the engine is actually running? Sometimes during cranking one of these errors will pop up but if you clear the error after running it doesnt show up again. If it is still a problem, hit F1 while viewing the error screen, it tells you what to do to fix it.

TMichaels

01-19-2013, 10:31 AM

Finally I managed to find our old data files.

This is how our sensor setup looks like (keep that in mind, if you want to use any of the following settings and chang them according to your setup):
http://www7.pic-upload.de/19.01.13/wmetjdy6rk.jpg

And here follows all the setup stuff. Due to the way we adjusted the pin on the camshaft, our Crip might be 360° off your measurements. I also noticed that it is a further 5° probably due to using cylinder pressure instead of a timing light in order to calibrate it. Additionally it is a very early file version which was created directly after we got the engine running on the dyno.
I also recognized that some settings do not really make sense, but they do no harm. For example the sensor voltage level settings which rises with RPM only to then drop. But as said before, that should does not do harm. As said before, this is probably also due to the early version of this file.

It looks like my memory regarding the definition of the ref signal's trigger edge was corrupted, when looking at the captured signals and our Motec configuration. Sadly the Motec website is currently down, thus I am not able to retrieve the document that shows its definition to double check.

http://www7.pic-upload.de/19.01.13/81pg612d65ec.jpg
http://www10.pic-upload.de/19.01.13/7ahlca23luw.jpg
http://www10.pic-upload.de/19.01.13/vxh1g27c1izm.jpg
http://www7.pic-upload.de/19.01.13/385fqyhagfjq.jpg
http://www7.pic-upload.de/19.01.13/vis3846jboga.jpg

I hope it helps.

G.Arce

01-30-2013, 02:38 PM

Hey!

Have you fixed the problem??

spyro

02-11-2013, 01:39 PM

Hi again,

Sorry for not answering, I really forgot this thread and I'm sorry about that since I get a lot of help here.

Actually we were asking for something It was already done. The engine was synced a long time ago, but we were expecting to see "Ref/Sync: SYNCED or OK" when the engine was totally stopped. If the crank is not moving, how would it turn to OK?

I feel a little bit idiot http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif but well, theres an important point I'd like to say: we were able to sync the engine without moving the camshaft sensor pin, even if both sync and cam signals were clashing at the trigger point. I guess this sounds a little bit weird since every team which used a GSXR engine needed to do this little modification, but It's working.

The problem actually was ignition and injectors' configuration.

Thanks again for everyone who posted in this thread. I promise I'll pay a beer If any of you come to Spain ;-)

jlangholzj

02-11-2013, 02:51 PM

Originally posted by spyro:
Hi again,

Sorry for not answering, I really forgot this thread and I'm sorry about that since I get a lot of help here.

Actually we were asking for something It was already done. The engine was synced a long time ago, but we were expecting to see "Ref/Sync: SYNCED or OK" when the engine was totally stopped. If the crank is not moving, how would it turn to OK?

I feel a little bit idiot http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif but well, theres an important point I'd like to say: we were able to sync the engine without moving the camshaft sensor pin, even if both sync and cam signals were clashing at the trigger point. I guess this sounds a little bit weird since every team which used a GSXR engine needed to do this little modification, but It's working.

The problem actually was ignition and injectors' configuration.

Thanks again for everyone who posted in this thread. I promise I'll pay a beer If any of you come to Spain ;-)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tOHfXsuCi2A/UAR-aWhhiHI/AAAAAAAADds/GEPBcd-ogfU/s1600/roflmfao.jpg

If I had a dollar for every time that something like that happened to me, I could retire...well...maybe not that bad....the point is, been there, done that. I'm guessing that at least 1/2 the guys here have been as well.

Just glad to hear you've got it running. Regardless of what happened, I'm curious to a) how you figured it out and b) who figured it out. If comparing to my experiences is any benchmark....I'm guessing the answer to those two is equally funny http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh and I want a picture of the RPM gauge on your monitor with a penny to prove its running http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif hahahahaa

spyro

02-22-2013, 09:32 AM

Originally posted by jlangholzj:
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-tOHfXsuCi2A/UAR-aWhhiHI/AAAAAAAADds/GEPBcd-ogfU/s1600/roflmfao.jpg

If I had a dollar for every time that something like that happened to me, I could retire...well...maybe not that bad....the point is, been there, done that. I'm guessing that at least 1/2 the guys here have been as well.

Just glad to hear you've got it running. Regardless of what happened, I'm curious to a) how you figured it out and b) who figured it out. If comparing to my experiences is any benchmark....I'm guessing the answer to those two is equally funny http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh and I want a picture of the RPM gauge on your monitor with a penny to prove its running http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif hahahahaa

I will post a video soon http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Another question: we are getting a Over RPM error :/ what is that? Even if we push the pedal, it doesnt go above 5500RPM. The injection/ignition maps should be OK :/ and we didn't set any RPM limit...

MileyCyrus

02-22-2013, 10:39 PM

Have you tried setting an RPM limit? According to the MoTeC software, over RPM is for when the engine exceeds the diagnostic RPM limit. It could be as simple as 5000 or whatever the engine is running at, is greater than 0.

As far as not being able to go above 5500RPM, what does it do at this stage? Backfiring, becoming "sluggish" and not wanting to go above this RPM? Do you happen to have a log of the engine running and running into these issues?

Cheers,

spyro

02-23-2013, 01:58 AM

Originally posted by MileyCyrus:
Have you tried setting an RPM limit? According to the MoTeC software, over RPM is for when the engine exceeds the diagnostic RPM limit. It could be as simple as 5000 or whatever the engine is running at, is greater than 0.

As far as not being able to go above 5500RPM, what does it do at this stage? Backfiring, becoming "sluggish" and not wanting to go above this RPM? Do you happen to have a log of the engine running and running into these issues?

Cheers,

Well, once reaching 5500 rpm the engine starts to cough and stops. If you push the throttle to 100% you can keep the engine working again without stopping, but as it reaches 5500RPM it dies.

We have been told it could be the ref/sync signals (again, holy sh*t, I hate them). Could be true since it shows a Error Sync Signal when it reaches 5500RPM.

I let you a capture @ 5400RPM aprox.

http://i.imgur.com/v0r6lWD.jpg

This doesn't look very well... does it?