Is "engineering" still respected?

[Wes]

WARNING: RANT

For those of us who are engineering majors, do you guys feel your profession is respected the way it should be? I am entering my senior year in mechanical engineering, and I have worked damn hard to get this far. A year from now I will be a Mechanical Engineer. However, I feel that the word "engineer" has almost lost meaning. It seems like every one is a "Something Engineer" these days.

There is not a week that goes by that I don't hear about an IT major taking a job as a "Production Design Engineer", "Agricultural Engineer" or a "Manufacturing Engineer". These stories are always followed by the same claim that these tech majors will be making "just as much as an engineer".

I want to hear some opinions on this. Perhaps this is not the case in other parts of the world, but it seems like the label "engineer" is thrown around with no regard to actual engineers.

[Wes]

WARNING: RANT

For those of us who are engineering majors, do you guys feel your profession is respected the way it should be? I am entering my senior year in mechanical engineering, and I have worked damn hard to get this far. A year from now I will be a Mechanical Engineer. However, I feel that the word "engineer" has almost lost meaning. It seems like every one is a "Something Engineer" these days.

There is not a week that goes by that I don't hear about an IT major taking a job as a "Production Design Engineer", "Agricultural Engineer" or a "Manufacturing Engineer". These stories are always followed by the same claim that these tech majors will be making "just as much as an engineer".

I want to hear some opinions on this. Perhaps this is not the case in other parts of the world, but it seems like the label "engineer" is thrown around with no regard to actual engineers.

[UQ Turbo]

Do a PHD lol. Then you can call yourself a doctor and piss off the medical proffession!

http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Greg H]

Here's something to think about. Do you actually think that other people care about how much engineering went into a project besides other engineers? I would say they just want something to do what it does and look good while doing it. I believe that applies across all disciplines. So I would say that no profession is respected the way you think your own profession should be.
Also, it sounds like you are making engineers out to be better than regular people who are undeserving of such a dignified title.

[Jersey Tom]

Looking at the quality of work from some of the graduating ME's this year on their senior design projects etc, there's some people I feel are very bright and will do very well, and there are others who scare me. There are those who busted their ass getting there and will have good jobs, and there are those who just kinda got by.

Manufacturing engineering is challenging stuff, I might add. Ridiculously low percentage of graduating engineers who really have a solid understanding of how stuff is manufactured and the problems incurred. I have much more respect for a machinist or toolmaker of some odd years of experience who is taking a Mfg. Eng. position, than I do some rookie mechanical design engineer just out of an ivy league school.

[Blake_DFSAE]

I think it's too puffed up anyways.

It could use a good deflation.

[Micko..]

people are always going to give themselves names that make them sound more important than they are, one guy in the team last year was called "component intergration manager", i just called him bracket bitch! (he was good tho)

I guess it comes down to what people do not what they are called.

miko

[Blake_DFSAE]

And I realy hope (although doubt) that the irony of the (paraphrased):

"People aren't bowing down to me? They really oughta learn some humility!"

Makes its way through.

[ScottW]

The term definately gets thrown around too much. Such as "This website 'engineered' by ..." or studying mechanical engeering "technology" at a local vocational school. So yes, I think engineers don't get near as much respect as they deserve for as much as they progress society, as opposed to just winning lawsuits.

[absolutepressure]

I don't know about other people, but whenever I hear "mechanical engineer" I think "everyone's doing it" and mechanic. So no, I don't give them as much presitge as is due (even though I am one). I used to be an Engineering Physicist, sounds nice, but I learned that it's pretty much a bull shit major. They claim to give an adequate background in Mechanical and Electical Engineering and Physics. All somehow in less credits than a Mechanical Engineering degree.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originaly posted by Greg H: Also, it sounds like you are making engineers out to be better than regular people who are undeserving of such a dignified title. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's because we are and they don't. I AIN'T GOIN TO SCHOOL FO NOTHIN BIOTCH! lol

[SpdRcr]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ScottW:
So yes, I think engineers don't get near as much respect as they deserve for as much as they progress society, as opposed to just winning lawsuits. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Save a baboon, use a lawyers heart.

That was a good bumper sticker I saw.

And let people call themselves what they want, it is the work/results that shine through. I know a guy named Jim-Bob who is a waste managment engineer and drives around the back of a big green dump truck...

[Bill Kunst]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I know a guy named Jim-Bob who is a waste managment engineer and drives around the back of a big green dump truck... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And none of us want to be THAT engineer. I think you have a valid complaint. Call home and your mom will send some cookies.

Really, I hope all of you don't feel like the fat kid (always picked on). Just take a second and think of all the jobs that people get very little respect/pay for that you wouldn't do. I am sure that most of didn't go to college with the thought, "When I get out, everyone's gonna kiss my ass!" I am sure that you went to get an education in a career that you enjoy and pays what you can live with (not live on). If you want respect, do something extraordinary: save a whale, starve yourself in he name of humanity, feed the starving children of the world, etc.

If you ever noticed the news, they don't announce the engineers who designed the plane that is dropping food into starving nations, they announce the eople, the groups, etc. that are sending the relief. Maybe you are in the wrong business if you feel otherwise.
Bill

[CMURacing - Prometheus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jersey Tom:
Looking at the quality of work from some of the graduating ME's this year on their senior design projects etc, there's some people I feel are very bright and will do very well, and there are others who scare me. There are those who busted their ass getting there and will have good jobs, and there are those who just kinda got by.

Manufacturing engineering is challenging stuff, I might add. Ridiculously low percentage of graduating engineers who really have a solid understanding of how stuff is manufactured and the problems incurred. I have much more respect for a machinist or toolmaker of some odd years of experience who is taking a Mfg. Eng. position, than I do some rookie mechanical design engineer just out of an ivy league school. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having looked at (and taken) a job in manufacturing, I agree, its by no means as easy as some of the other people I'm going to be working with think it will be. But doing FSAE, the cost report, hanging around competition, etc., has taught me a lot, as has a manufacturing class I took with a guy who was a walking encyclopedia of manufacturing processes. Regardless, I decided to go into manufacturing because there was so much to learn, and I enjoy it.
one of the jobs i looked at sounds right up your alley, jersey tom. it was a manufacturing position where the day to day work was QA/troubleshooting: you get a team of a dozen seasoned unioners and when a machine breaks, you fix it. fast.

with respect to the respect engineers get, all i'm going to say is this: try going to a bar, meeting a pretty girl, then when she asks what you do, tell her you're an engineer. and see what she does.
that's why i'm only going to say the name of the company i work for. i don't want to be known as an engineer.

[Jersey Tom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">with respect to the respect engineers get, all i'm going to say is this: try going to a bar, meeting a pretty girl, then when she asks what you do, tell her you're an engineer. and see what she does. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well thats sliiiightly different. That's why I tell them I play guitar and build/drive racecars. If I'm still coherent at that point. Usually not the case.

I love the manufacturing engineering aspect of stuff though. Working between the design engineers and the toolmakers, machinists, welders, et cetera. Get to play around in both worlds. Lot of fun.

[Cory M]

You guys are all in school to learn how to drive trains, right?

[SpdRcr]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CMURacing - Prometheus:

with respect to the respect engineers get, all i'm going to say is this: try going to a bar, meeting a pretty girl, then when she asks what you do, tell her you're an engineer. and see what she does.
that's why i'm only going to say the name of the company i work for. i don't want to be known as an engineer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


i go home to my prom queen and shes damn happy im an engineer.

[Blake_DFSAE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">i go home to my prom queen and shes damn happy im an engineer. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We all think you're the man.

[95M3Racer]

If you want to make GOOD money get out of engineering as soon as you can and get into business...construction, real estate, entrepenuer self made business, whatever.

Engineering is a good background, but very tough to make a really good living (250K+) after being in the industry for a while.

But thats just my opinion (and most of the multi millionaires I know).

Working for someone else SUCKS.

[Garlic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

"People aren't bowing down to me? They really oughta learn some humility!"

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heh, exactly what I was thinking. People should be lucky they have things like this to concern themselves with, instead of real problems.

[SpdRcr]

i cant believe my last post was edited...regardless, engineering offers an awesome education, and combined with a business degree and a few years in industry, you have a lethal combo good for 6 figures.

[Blake_DFSAE]

Hahahahahah MY VIRGIN EYES

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SpdRcr:
i cant believe my last post was edited.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

huh, posts can be edited? I thought this wasnt an sae sanctioned forum, noone wants there mom reading what they said, so dont become someones mom please......

[Paul Gibson]

There is a difference between being 'common sense' smart and being 'book smart'. Many times in engineering, these overlap. I've seen many engineers struggle with something that is so conceptually simple, but know all the little tricks to solving long equations and graduate with a 4.0. Those are the ones that really scare people.

There are also just truley gifted engineers that are good at it all. My dad is an engineer who says the best engineer he works with barely made it through school because he was so bad at math.

Cant really be stereotypical about it, really.

[RiNaZ]

hey spdrcr, sorry i edit your post. I figured that it'd be my job as a moderator to edit stuff with profanity and such. But after going thru my duties description given my the owner, apparently profanity isnt one of them.

I think i got confused with other forums that i've been in http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

So go ahead ... swear all you want http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[kwancho]

What, you're a moderator? Snap.

[SpdRcr]

fuck! ass!


Boondock Saints anyone?

wow, this is far off the original topic...

[Garlic]

No it's not, it's proving why engineers shouldn't be respected. hehe

[D-Train]

en·gi·neer ( P ) Pronunciation Key (nj-nîr)
n.
1. One who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering.
2. One who operates an engine.
3. One who skillfully or shrewdly manages an enterprise

We had a similar discussion earlier this year, about whether our team members could have their official titles include the word 'engineer'. The idea was that we are NOT engineers yet, since we haven't graduated (at least most of us haven't). We are doing engineering work, but getting pissed off at people who have done IT courses and call themselves engineers is no different than people who have finished their degree and are in the industry getting pissed off at undergraduates who think they are just as qualified as them.

But then, if you take the second definition listed above, we're all engineers and have been for some time now. I don't know *where* the third definition comes from.

[Chuck Maddocks]

going to work and doing what you want to do is more important than trying to make a million dollars. sure, go ahead and work everyday for the rest of your life doing something you hate. you'll be rich, but you'll hate your life 8-12 hours a day, monday through friday/saturday. and if you plan on getting rich building racecars, good luck. and if you like screwing people over, you can be a rich lawyer. and a dick

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

I had an electric train set once, I operated it, am I an engineer?

[J. Schmidt]

[rant]

You don't have to have an engineering degeree to engineer a part or process; it's also a method of development. If a person's profession requires them to design a product to fulfill certain criteria while folling x and y constraints, isn't that engineering? And I believe I'm the IT (industrial technology, not information technology) major Wes was refering to. I have taken classes that could also be offered in Industrial, Mechanical, Manufacturing, or Chemical Engineering programs.

And yes, my job title will have the word "engineer" in it. After taking 4 years of metalcasting classes I think I deserve to be called a foundry engineer.

[end rant]

[Jersey Tom]

Hm, that' rad. Wish we had metalcasting classes here.

[J. Schmidt]

casting is fun. Do you get to see things like this in you're engineering labs?

http://www.uwplatt.edu/org/afs/pictures/DSC_6659.jpg
That's us pouring steel or iron, I don't remember which

[JerryLH3]

I'd say engineering is somewhat respected. A lot of people don't realize just how many things in their lives involved a great deal of engineering. While engineers are certainly improtant in society, I don't think that means we should feel so necessary that we inflate our egos too much. After all, doctors, nurses and other health care professionals contribute greatlky to society, but I don't go around thanking them all day.

[NetKev92]

My problem with the perception of engineering is more the other way around. If you're introduced as an engineer, the first response to come back is usually "Oh, you must be smart" - that girl at a bar problem except everyone does it. People have forgotten that the core of engineering is that you take some idea and make something useful from it. You don't need a degree to do that and I've known several good engineers who learned as much growing up on the farm as they learned in classes.

I think too many people are intimidated by the profession. That "rocket science" qoute is long since cliche'd and used up. It seems like people just can't imagine what an engineer does, so they can't identify with your profession. It sometimes does come off like a respect thing, but I often get a deeper vibe that they just don't know what to say so: it's moving right along...

Now if respect is pay, then no it's not the highest paying job out there. It's sure not shabby though. Engineers with one year of work behind them and low college debts can often afford their first mortgage. That's a priviledge and a benefit that a lot of professions don't afford a person. Remember too that benefits in a corporation are often worth 50% above the value of your salary. A friend told me that his first kid's sonograms and birth cost $15k without any complications. Medical coverage matters. Consider the day you or yours get cancer. A corporate engineering job is not gonna make you instantly rich, but there is a lot to be said for the security and rewards. And if we face reality, a lot of engineers aren't good enough managing cash flow issues to make as much money even with their own business as just taking a good secure job. 9 out of 10 new businesses fail because it isn't easy. Try figuring ot how much revenue you'd need to bring in every week just to match a basic engineering salary. Assume that you can't make more than 30% profit from every dollar that comes in. It's amazing how much it takes.

[Marimvibe]

My question is, "who cares?" Does it really matter? I take satisfaction in the fact that I do my job well and that I make a difference in the final product, which in some cases may improve the lives of many million people per year. If other people respect me for that, cool. If not, why should it bother me as long as I'm content? Their loss, not mine.

And I'd consider a 6 figure income to be a very good pay rate. Not top 1%, but definately enough to live very comfortably and provide for a family (especially if your spouse has a halfway decent job.)

[UTA racer rikki]

Forget the respect that an "engineer" deserves. How many of you would be where you are today without a teacher? If you want to take up a cause, why don't you fight for the respect of a teacher? They deserve a lot more credit than they are given.

Imagine dealing with 40 smart ass kids, day in and day out. Kids that think they know more than you could possibly ever know. Do they do it for respect? Do they do it for a title? They do it because they love it.

In the grander scheme of things, does it really matter what other people think of you, or your title? I echo Garlic here in saying that this is a rather petty thing to think about.

Just a sidenote, I remember reading somewhere that even with a degree in Engineering, you technically can't call yourself an Engineer. You have to take the EIT exam, then work under a P.E. for a few years, and then take yet another exam. Correct me if I am wrong.

[number77]

Guys, I'm a * major and let me just say...as a whole no one outside of the sciences respects those within the sciences.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bill Kunst:
If you ever noticed the news, they don't announce the engineers who designed the plane that is dropping food into starving nations, they announce the eople, the groups, etc. that are sending the relief. Maybe you are in the wrong business if you feel otherwise.
Bill </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Reminds me of those that pay to put their names on University buildings. Are they doing something nice? Sure, but they're doing it for the wrong reason if they want credit

[Dusan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by UTA racer rikki:
Just a sidenote, I remember reading somewhere that even with a degree in Engineering, you technically can't call yourself an Engineer. You have to take the EIT exam, then work under a P.E. for a few years, and then take yet another exam. Correct me if I am wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is the case in Texas, but it is state by state. In TX one must be licensed to call oneself an engineer. I rather like that idea, even if I am not licensed.

I hate that Microsoft and other companies call network techs "engineers". (CNE or MCSE) It's just marketing BS.

For instance, the IEEE created a certification; "Certified Software Development Professional" or CSDP. It was originally "Certified Software Engineer" but they changed it to keep from having different titles for Texas.

Pride aside, it becomes a real problem when looking for jobs, as one's titles are dilluted by a mass of underqualified people with inflated titles. Likewise, it may be even more problematic when hiring, as people often inflate titles. There is nothing quite like spending a ton of money to interview a candidate only to find the "Engineering design work" on the resume really meant they knew how to set the options in Microsoft Excel or could competently "engineer" that a 5/16 screw took a 5/16 nut.

I guess that is why TX has the law they do.

Soon enough janitors will find that "Sanitation Engineer" is an insulting title and we'll have to call them all "Doctors of Sanitation".

SET RANT = off;

Cheers,
~D

[BStoney]

Honestly, I echo Erick and others...

If someone is so hung up on a title or what others think of them, they should probably go into another profession. Engineering in industry and working with those who are obviously more experienced and skilled than you are takes HUMILITY. To me, that is the essence of being successful in engineering and business. It's those guys who go to work, but their balls and do what they love that are successful, not the ones worried about what others think or where their next promotion is coming from. So seriously, this is rediculous and probably not something to be worried about with your "title" as an engineer.

Oh yea, and what ever was wrong with being stereotyped as smart or knowledgable? You're the guy/girl those others will be coming to in order to fix their stuff or give them help with their car, etc. I think that is enough respect in and of itself.

[mikep]

On another note, there seems to be some anti-engineer reverse snobbery afoot.
Some people think that all engineers over-analyze and put others down for embracing the simple pleasures in life.
I have even been accused of being an engineer (gasp) just because I took the time to read a few books and then attempted to apply what I had learned.

Back on topic, When I was turning wrenches for a living I hated the term "technician". There were sanitation technicians, etc.
Even when I became an electronics specialist, I preferred to be called a mechanic. But I always read the manuals, and that is something that few "techs" ever did. So I solved the problems, and eventually started teaching.
Now I get the "those that can, do; those that can't, teach" idiocy. Whatever.

The lesson is:
Everywhere you go, you will encounter unjust circumstances and opposition. You will certainly meet some turds. Just do your best. Nobody can mess with that.

[Rob Davies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 95M3Racer:
If you want to make GOOD money get out of engineering as soon as you can and get into business...construction, real estate, entrepenuer self made business, whatever.

Engineering is a good background, but very tough to make a really good living (250K+) after being in the industry for a while.

But thats just my opinion (and most of the multi millionaires I know).

Working for someone else SUCKS. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


You dont need ANY degree to be an entrepeneur !! People think once they get a degree its all a big cash cow from then on but you have to earn it and be dynamic. You get what you put in.

[jac]

Hmm...definitely engineers has been notorious for being sloppy, unorganized, always developing, etc. And not to mention anyone can add "engineer" to their title. But irregardless, you will still be respected. Everyone is going to be looking for that engineer to do some quantitative, thoughtful analysis to backup someone's assumptions.

But one thing I would advised to all real Engineers (those who have actually studied it, studying it, or in the industry for ions)...have the discipline to DOCUMENT every redline, manufacturing changes, tests, drawing, every spec you add or change!!! I'm a PM having to question the evidence of why changes were made, what proof do you have that something does not work? If you verified and validated - where is the papertrail to show me? Anyhow, that is my 2 cents. Another 2nd tip, follow through with projects whether it be a task or what and don't just leave it hanging cause you tested it and it was a success....

[jac]

Oh and another thing....does it really matter if you get recognized for something and your name is flashed out in headlines??? I mean if engineering - mechanical, electrical, industrial, manufacturing, etc...is what you love and enjoy...then keep doing it.

I hate to sound fufu...but does it matter what folks around you think? And if you hate it, stop grumbling and...PLOD ON and find something else in life to enjoy http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Wesley]

I'd be lying if I said I'd never thought I was owed some respect for various reasons - because I chose to be an engineer, because I'm a fairly smart person, etc, but, just like we learn engineering parts for race cars, really it doesn't matter what you are or what you design, or what quantitative element or numbers you describe yourself or your parts with, if they don't perform in the real world, they don't get used.