Formula SAE 2005 Competition: Detroit - Updates, Pictures, Stories, and More.

[James Waltman]

I don't really have any updates yet but I figured that I could get a new thread started for this.

We will have several guys taking a ton of pictures. I plan on uploading a big chunk of them every night.
I'm not much of a webmaster but I just learned the Denny Trimble Photo Gallery Method (http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/dsnrprt-images/index.html) so I should be set.

I'll try to post updates and results as they become available. Good luck to everyone.

[James Waltman]

We got in to Detroit late last night. Only a few teams were out working.

Most of our pictures will get posted here. (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit/index.htm)

Tomorrow I will sort through them a little better and try to rename most of them. Some of them are bad pictures because I just dumped everything we had. In the pictures I have up now the Auburn car is black. The UBC (British Columbia) car has a white frame. The University of Puerto Rico has the wing.

[James Waltman]

I have been trying to update the pictures on the link above for the last few hours. Pretty slow upload speeds from the hotel's "high speed internet"�. I guess I'm spoiled fast internet on campus. Anyway, about 500 new pictures are loading now. It may take a few more hours before anything is up.

Updates from the team captains meeting:
(I wouldn't consider any of this official coming from me)

Right now it looks like the 2006 FSAE will not be held at the Silverdome. SAE is looking for a new venue in the area (likely within about 30 miles of the Silverdome).

2006 FSAE West – Still in negotiations with Cal Speedway to use the infield for the competition. Will probably be held the first or second weekend in June. Watch the newsletter for details.

It looks like registration will open at the same time for both events. A team will only be allowed to sign up for one event to start. If spots are still available after 1 month teams will be allowed to sign up for a second event. Estimates right now look like West may be limited to 70 or 80 teams for the first year. The Detroit limit may change based on the new venue (not more than 140).

Static events start in the morning.

[jack]

here are some car weights that we grabbed (good job leon):

Official Weight-In Excel File (http://myweb.students.wwu.edu/~cheungl/Official%20Weigh%20In.xls)

[Matt N]

Thanks a lot, James and Jack-

Being stuck at home, its really nice for you guys to post this stuff as it goes down. Keep up the good work. Not to be too greedy but are there more vehicle weights? You are planning to try to post info from the dynamic events as soon as you can too, right?

Thanks again!

Matthew

[James Waltman]

The original link now has about 500 pictures. (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit/index.htm)
I was having trouble uploading them but it looks like it worked now.

About 100 more pictures are up here. (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_2/index.htm)

I'm hoping that tonight I can upload the pictures from today (about 400 so far). I haven't had the time that I thought I would to sort them out and name them all (and pull out the bad ones). Hopefully within a few pictures either way of a detail shot there is a picture of a team name or something.

Matt,
We had a guy sitting outside the tent recording numbers as the cars rolled off the scales. He is trying to get the officials to release their tally at the end.

[Mark Bacchetti]

You guys rock! Thanks for the great updates.


-Mark
Cal Poly Pomona

[chavez]

During the driver meetings for accel and skidpad the organizers notified everyone that the 100 octane fuel that they had been filling people's cars with all day long that it may contain 10% ethanol, so to keep things fair they are allowing teams to bring their own fuel to the event on friday if it is kept in the fueling area.

They also annouced design semi-finalists, 12 cars made it, then they later annouced Western Australia after they complained in the design tent. Pretty f'ed up if ya ask me.

I'll post back on the 12, but i know for sure:

UTA
Cornell
Ryerson

[RiNaZ]

hey james,
great pictures, surprised you got time to take pictures and upload em' all http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Do you see those ETS guys around? Just wondering if they have a new car. Also, what are those stacks of batteries for?

p/s: always a fan of helsienki's bodywork

[Charlie]

Thanks for the pics of the Auburn U car! Those guys have been so busy, it's been a tough year with 10 vital seniors departing over the last year and a half. I'm real proud of them for not only getting there, but building a car quite different than the 2004 car in many ways.

How about some comments on cars from people at the comp?? I wanna know some details! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Charlie]

On another note, I talked to AU's team and they did not make semis. But only 12 (er, 13) cars made it? Wow! They can have up to 20, so that just means the judges thought there weren't that many cars up to snuff I guess. Suprising! There were 19 cars last year.

[Oliver]

Does anybody know the teams who passed to semifinals?

[James Waltman]

Teams in the Design SemiFinals

Started at 7:00pm and it is still going on now at 9:30pm. Dark and rainy so not a lot of people left watching it.

Teams in:

047 Lawrence Tech University (Inst)
006 Penn State Univ
015 RMIT University
081 Helsinki Polytechnic
096 Universidad Simon Bolivar
124 Ryerson University
023 Rochester Institute of Technology
005 University of Washington
001 Cornell University
087 University of Texas-Arlington
009 University of Wisconsin-Madison
032 University of Waterloo
Oh yeah and:
070 University of Western Australia

They announced all of them and then added UWA after a couple of minutes.

[Dan G]

Originally posted by jack:
here are some car weights that we grabbed (good job leon):

Official Weight-In Excel File (http://myweb.students.wwu.edu/~cheungl/Official%20Weigh%20In.xls)
Obviously with only 48 teams listed, this is not a complete list. UM-D is still pretty light on the scales, but there are at least 2-3, maybe more, cars under UM-D's 420 lbs.

Our low weight is thanks to a true KISS design scheme. Minimal amount of tubes in the frame, and the carb'd Briggs and Stratton V-Twin w/ CVT are the biggest culprits of the "added lightness". Our electronics diagram can be drawn on a napkin. We have no coolant, just a fan shroud. There's nothing extra on the car.

http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1475.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1476.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1468.thumb.jpg (http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/FSAE05)

I took 129 pics yesterday and today, expect probably twice that many tomorrow. I got a ton of shots of the cars that made it to design finals, those are on the later pics...

(click any thumb to go to the gallery)

<A HREF="http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/FSAE05" TARGET=_blank>http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1480.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1473.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1485.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1502.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1513.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1532.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1543.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1574.thumb.jpg
http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1583.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1588.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1569.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1467.thumb.jpg </A>

Comments (DO NOT QUOTE ME ON THIS STUFF):
1) Queens U single cylinder turbo, I think it might be under 400 lbs too! 2,3) Univ. of Guelph has a 4WD car, longitudinal engine. 4) Canadian team with a CLEAN turbo install.

5) Bradley Univ. was the only other team running a CVT, this one on their 4 cyl motor. 6) WICKED car from Helsinki, turbo beast makes a reported 113 hp! 7) Kanagawa was one of 2 (I think) teams with longitudinal mounted engines. 8) RMIT has a very light car, should be a top contender.

9) UTA's car sporting plenty of aero. 10) Helsinki again, sex on wheels. 11) Perrenial powerhouse Cornell. 12) Carnegie Mellon's 4th year car has a shot at placing really well this time around.

[terra_dactile]

To RiNaz
Hi my name is jude and i am on the ETS formula sae team
we will be unveiling our new car at formula student this year
thanks for the interest in our car

JUDE BERTHAULT
Steering Director
ETS formula sae

[Alejandro]

Vaaamos team!
estan entre los chivos q mas mean! sigan asi..
Jacobo.. mañana suelta ese croche sin miedo...
marcel... vuelvete loca..
ian .. no lo rompas..
erick.. eso no es una moto, puedes darle duro en curvas..
gustavo... dale pateishion

[RiNaZ]

I doubt i'll be at the Formula Student this year, hope you guys take a lot of pictures and share with us all.

I remember taking videos of your car, and 30 mins after, i'll be like ... "damn, that's a nice car ... waitttt ... that's the same ETS car i just saw half an hour ago" ... and believe me ... this happened at least twice. Either im blind or your car is just so darn hot http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[James Waltman]

My third set of pictures is up now. (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_3/index.htm)

First set (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit/index.htm)
Second set (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_2/index.htm)

(that makes something like 900 pictures up so far)

We have a lot more pictures that I am hoping to get up in the next day. I keep meaning to name them and sort them but that won't happen for at least a few more days.

We snuck away for a while to catch the end of the Honda dinner. The design semifinals were still going on when we got back. They ran from 7pm to midnight.

Chavez,
Are you implying that UWA should not have been in the design finals or are you complaining that they were not announced right away?

RiNaZ,
I have some extra time because we don't have a car here this year.

[Matt N]

weights - RMIT? Penn State?

Matthew

[Denny Trimble]

Penn State - 369 with a 4 cylinder, pretty impressive. I've heard RMIT is 380 but haven't seen the sticker myself.

Off to get in line for skidpad and accel...

[Pachi]

FELICITACIONES AL EQUIPO DE LA UNIVERSIDAD SIMÓN BOL�VAR, HACE 5 AÑOS ERA UN RETO PARTICIPAR EN MICHIGAN, Y HOY EN D�A LA GENERACIÓN 2005 NO SOLO EST� PARTICIPANDO SI NO QUE POR PRIMERA VEZ EST� EN SEMI-FINALES!!!!! MUCHO ÉXITO!!!!!!!
Y UNA VEZ M�S FELCITACIONES... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Una fiel amiradora
Pachi

[Alejandro]

Hey mates..

any updates from aceleration post it...

Thanks
Good luck to all.. and congrats for those in semifinals

[Andres]

I know we are overtaking this forum, but I have to take a moment to congratulate my team! we have worked for this for two years and now is a reality!!
CONGRATS F-SAE USB 2005! you guys are doing a great job!!

PD: we are waiting for updates in the dynamics events...

[Brent Howard]

Congratulations to FSAE USB. You guys have worked extermely hard over the past three years and it is paying off. I hope that the dynamic events work out just as well. Great job.

Brent

[Carlos Torres]

Felicitaciones al Equipo FSAE USB por alcanzar las semifinales de diseño de parte del Equipo FSAE-LUZ y son un orgullo para Venezuela...
Sigan asÃ*..

Carlos Torres
Jefe de Suspension FSAE-LUZ

[Foote]

The design finals have been announced.
Cornell #1
Penn State #6
Waterloo #52
West Australia #70
RMIT #15

Some of the acceleration runs
West Australia 4.32
Lehigh 5.37
RMIT 4.671
Penn State 4.285
SVSU 4.135
Cornell 4.135
Texas A&M 4.049
I don't think anyone beat texas.

[RobSchäel]

Hey team...
Very pruod of your work over there, seems like people aroud the world are supporting you posting messages.


Let`s playing this soccer game as pro Pieretti told us.

Waitin information about the presentation or dynamics events..

Good luck!

Roberto Schael
FSAE USB- Venezuela

[B.K.]

Hey, just wanted to thank you guys from WWU for the updates and photos. I'm sure there's lots of alumni like me checking regularly to see how things are going.

Go Big Red!

[David Dagnino]

Congratulations to F-SAE USB Team!

We, members that stayed in caracas are very proud and excited to hear all those great news from Michigan:

We are sorry that we weren't able to make it to design finals, but w are very proud to be the first South American team to reach the semifinals.

Animo Equipo. Lo estan haciendo de lo mejor, y podremos cerrar con broche de oro la competencia en el Silverdome

PD: Es rÃ*gido!!!

Saludos

[Tommo]

Great to see USB, i.e non US, UK OZ, etc. in design semis, big ups

Chavez,
I hope any doubts about design semi selection are doused by final selections

[Mike Shaw]

Originally posted by Foote:
The design finals have been announced.
Cornell #1
Penn State #6
Waterloo #52
West Australia #70
RMIT #15

Some of the acceleration runs
West Australia 4.32
Lehigh 5.37
RMIT 4.671
Penn State 4.285
SVSU 4.135
Cornell 4.135
Texas A&M 4.049
I don't think anyone beat Texas A&M.

Thanks for the updates everyone. I wish someone from FSAE would officially update the main website so the former competitors around the world could keep up with the competition when they are away.

If they want FSAE to get bigger (even NCAA worth???) they need to do a little more to publicize it. A website with more info and updates would help.

Until then, these forums will work, and because of y'alls hard work, I can keep up with my beloved Aggies.

I'm am suprised our team didn't make the semi's though. I attended the conceptual & final design reviews, and the roll out, and the car is very clean, well designed, and well put together.

Our team last year made semi's, and this year's team improved on everythign we did, including getting a shock dyno and testing all our old shocks, and new ones for this year.

They also combined the rear brake rotor and sprocket (sprotor), shrunk and lightened the chassis while stiffening it, and increased HP and torque. They also change wheels to stiffer ones, resulting in less camber induced deflection.

So, even if the design judges dont recognize, the time clock will, as evidenced by our Acceleration run. We'll see how skidpad, autox, and enduro turn out.

I really dont think they should select design semi's or finals until after enduro. All the theory in the world doesn't matter if you dont have the skills & manufacturing to back up.

PS Foote: I corrected your statement about how "nobody will beat texas". We are TEXAS A&M, NOT texas university. Thanks

- Mike

[NoH]

Originally posted by Mike Shaw:

I really dont think they should select design semi's or finals until after enduro. All the theory in the world doesn't matter if you dont have the skills & manufacturing to back up.

- Mike

Apparently you've missed the point. The endurance/fuel economy event already has the highest weight of any of the events, which already places an emphasis on the endurance of the car. The design aspect is not meant to necessarily reflect the best performing cars, but is more to test the ability of young engineers to present/discuss their design stratagies and back them up with data - the ultimate winner being the team that has conducted the most thorough design effort.

Since this is an engineering competition it makes sense to realize that a well thought out design followed by copious amounts of test data (either saying yea or nay on the design) shows an engineer doing a good job. Having a car that finishes endurance does not necessarily point to the same thing.

Here's a quote from the rules (page 68, 2005 rules):

"The concept of the design event is to evaluate the engineering effort that went into the design of the car and how the engineering meets the intent of the market. The car that illustrates the best use of engineering to meet the design goals and the best understanding of the design by the team members will win the design event."

Red 27!

NoH

[B.K.]

Mike,

In the pictures I've seen so far from this year's competition the Texas A&M car looks real solid. I wouldn't have been surprised to see it in Design Semis or even Finals.

I know that Cornell has walked away from the design event feeling a little stung in the past as well, including one year when we won the competition. We felt the same "if it's the fastest, then it's the best design" sentiment. One thing we realized, though, is that it's very much the responsibility of the team to sell the car to the judges. That means proving both that the design is strong and that the team understands why it's strong. Maybe the Texas A&M team did a great job of that this year, I don't know... but a Ferrari F1 car wouldn't get into FSAE design finals if the team didn't sell the design well.

And I think that in the spirit of this competition, that's the right way to run the Design event. Static events based on the results of the dynamic events wouldn't have much credibility.

But you're right about the clock. In the end, it will have the most say in selecting this year's World Champion.

Good luck to the Aggies! Looks like it could be another close year.

[Jeff Curtis]

BK, 10-4 on the updates. Following the action live and direct from LMS. Go Big Red!

Jeff

[NoH]

Originally posted by me:
the ultimate winner being the team that has conducted the most thorough design effort.


What was implied but not said here was that this is all seen through the judges eyes, hence what BK is saying:


Originally posted by B.K.:
I know that Cornell has walked away from the design event feeling a little stung in the past as well, including one year when we won the competition. We felt the same "if it's the fastest, then it's the best design" sentiment. One thing we realized, though, is that it's very much the responsibility of the team to sell the car to the judges. That means proving both that the design is strong and that the team understands why it's strong. Maybe the Texas A&M team did a great job of that this year, I don't know... but a Ferrari F1 car wouldn't get into FSAE design finals if the team didn't sell the design well.

And I think that in the spirit of this competition, that's the right way to run the Design event. Static events based on the results of the dynamic events wouldn't have much credibility.

But you're right about the clock. In the end, it will have the most say in selecting this year's World Champion.


The competition is setup to favor dynamic events, and as BK already pointed out, you can win without winning final design. There is, however, a distinct difference between the static and dynamic events that should be preserved.

Balls to the wall.

NoH

[clif2001]

It's competition...someone is always going think their getting screwed. We've all been there. Just don't take it personally. We've all spent so much time on these cars and it's hard when you aren't recognized or the car chooses to wait until competition to malfunction. All the teams deserve respect for putting in the time and laying it on the line in Detroit. Good luck to all. Wish I was still living this dream we call Formula SAE.

-Clif Oberle
Texas A&M '01-'02

[clif2001]

P.S.- I do feel that you should have to pass tech inspection before participating in any part of the competition. There have been teams in the past that did well in design with a car that didn't run.

[Mike Shaw]

Originally posted by NoH:
Apparently you've missed the point. The endurance/fuel economy event already has the highest weight of any of the events, which already places an emphasis on the endurance of the car. The design aspect is not meant to necessarily reflect the best performing cars, but is more to test the ability of young engineers to present/discuss their design stratagies and back them up with data - the ultimate winner being the team that has conducted the most thorough design effort.

Since this is an engineering competition it makes sense to realize that a well thought out design followed by copious amounts of test data (either saying yea or nay on the design) shows an engineer doing a good job. Having a car that finishes endurance does not necessarily point to the same thing.

Here's a quote from the rules (page 68, 2005 rules):

"The concept of the design event is to evaluate the engineering effort that went into the design of the car and how the engineering meets the intent of the market. The car that illustrates the best use of engineering to meet the design goals and the best understanding of the design by the team members will win the design event."

Red 27!

NoH

I agree with what you are saying, and I see how judging the cars after endurance would seem redundant in scoring. But as we all know, data and testing performed at places other than the competition can be fabricated. Just because the part analyzed using FEA passed, doesn't mean the part on the car is exactly the same.

You emphasize the "testing" aspect of the design process, however some cars that are in the design semi's don't even have any real world testing on them because the car wasn't completed on time. You want a real design test? Put a car through 20 hard laps where everyone can witness the real results, and see what happens.

I think Mark Twain said it best when he said "There are lies, damned lies, and statistics." In the real engineering world, all your design efforts and theory are pointless if your design fails. You dont get points, you get lawsuits.

And I realize you point to the rules and what they state about "The concept of the design event is to evaluate the engineering effort that went into the design of the car and how the engineering meets the intent of the market."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but our market is weekend autocrossers. I dont see how designs like forced induction, exotic materials , CNC everything, etc meets the intent of the market, when such systems are complex, expensive, and difficult to fix.

I realize the cost event is supposed to iron that out, but I still question that whole process and the number of loopholes that teams use as cost-cutting measures.

At A&M, we emphasize safety, reliability, and simplicity. We make fast cars, that are light weight and easy to tune. We usually end up with the KISS philosophy, so that we have extensive amounts of time to test & tune (1-2 months). We end up with great cars that last a long time, and win. Yet we frequently get missed in the design competition, and somehow (even using your less exotic materials and parts with lower cost ie ABS plastic) we are somehow one of the higher-costing cars. Maybe were just too honest. Stupid Aggie Code of Honor...

I'm not at all against the design portion of the competition. I agree with it, and it's purpose. Our team did well last year in it; I just think the whole process and intent could use some changes.

One final point. I thought the place to "sell your car" was during the Marketing Presentation. That's the portion where you make up numbers and figures to impress people. That shouldn't happen in the design portion.

[Mike Shaw]

Okay, we're effectively hi-jacking this thread. It's my fault; I started it. Sorry.

Back to priorities:

Updates anyone???

[Matt N]

well, from what I hear from down the grapevine (correct me if I'm wrong please) your Aggies walked autocross, 1st. UW took 5th in autocross.

Matthew

[David Dagnino]

Greetings!

Does anyone have news from the F-SAE USB team?


Thankyou

[Dan G]

Another hundred and some pics up from today. Starts around the bottom of page 3...

http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/FSAE05?page=3

I took 2-3 shots of most of the field lined up for the autox. So not EVERY school, but a good number of them.

[Mike Shaw]

DAN DAN he's tha MAN!

Thanks for all the pictures guys! It feels like I'm back in Detroit again, except for all the sunlight in the pictures.

However, it definately brings out the flames in our car http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1635.sized.jpg

[VFR750R]

The intent of the competition is to win the competition. There are 1000pts up for grabs, how did your design maximize the number of points gained in every event other then design? Did you make decisions that maximized your total pt total?
For instance...turbocharger increases total weight 15lbs but adds 15ftlbs of torque. That decision effects your skidpad score by -x pts, and effects your accel score y pts, and effects your cost score z pts, endurance, autocross, even design score.

They don't say it but design is about a detailed POINTS analysis of design decisions. Choosing a turbocharger and then going in the design tent and saying it is faster in accel and in autocross (if you even have those numbers to back it up) doesn't cut it unless you've proven it gives you pts after all pts against that decision in cost, weight, ect. Not to pick on carbon fiber lovers but have any of the teams that run a carbon fiber intake manifold/seat/body prove that it gives them pts in the competition? Most engineers can tell you it's lighter and lighter=faster, but at what cost. Fiberglass would cost you .1 lbs but save you $200.
Many decisions include compromise, so how did you weigh them ( the obvious choice is by pts gained).

you're right in that unobtanium materials and turbos wouldn't cut it in the FAKE senario of an amateur autocross car, but they don't give pts for interpreting what an amateur autocross car 'should' be, and don't be mad the judges don't give out brownie pts for a car that fits your definition of one.

I'm very sorry to rant but i'm surprised teams don't understand that every single part of their car is part of design process and if it doesn't get you the maxiumum number of pts it doesn't belong on the car. Something as simple as the wrong size rod ends could cost you design. I know that it sucks, but some of the teams you compete against might have calculated what size rods ends they needed, what size rotors, what size radiator, what material uprights, ect...

[James Waltman]

Some pictures of the unofficial results here. (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_Unofficial/)

Design
Cost
Acceleration
Skid Pad

I know that University of Washington was having some problems during the acceleration event. Mike Waggoner drove the first autocross runs for them. He got towed off from the first run and it looked like the car stalled out on the second run – (he did finish). Denny drove second for them and it looked like he put in a safe run first. They took some time before his second run and were one of the last teams to run autocross. Denny really poured it on and threw down a pretty sweet lap. I don't know the official times.

From what I heard through the day the top autocross teams were (in no order)
Texas A&M
UTA
Cornell
Ryerson
UMR
Drexel looked fast too.

About the Texas A&M Design:
I overheard some of the discussion during the Design Event about their bars on the front of the car (I refuse to call them an "impact attenuator"� or "crush structure"�). From what I gathered the student was having some problems with the questions. Apparently they actually tested the structure on some sort of impact sled. Maybe someone could clarify this all for me. It is a damn fast car but the Design Event is one of the Static Events. If this competition was all about the fastest car it would be called Formula 1 or Formula Ford or Formula Atlantic...

[BryanH]

This is also unofficial, Just talked to Rotor from RMIT, they won business presentation.
Scored 5th fastest time in Autocross but is prob 4th due to another car hitting a cone. Mark said he was caught out by the grip levels of the Hoosiers/track upsetting the balance. and missed a gear out of a critical corner. Will be faster on saturday.It's getting interesting...
Bryan H

[Matt N]

Keep on keepin on, Western boys. The info, pics and results are great.

Matthew

[B.K.]

Thanks again, guys, the updates are invaluable.

From those unofficial accel, cost, design, and skidpad numbers, it looks real close. Taking a real quick look, I get 10 teams within 50 points at the top, and another 6 teams within 70 points of the lead.

No point listing the leaders at this point, since Presentation usually shakes things up a little, and AutoX numbers are still out.

As usual, it all comes down to Saturday.

[BryanH]

Official, RMIT 3rd in Autocross

[aggie04]

I actually did the crush zone testing for the Texas A&M team last year. Yes, it is a crush zone as far as SAE is concerned. No other teams have anything better. We simply calculated the energy absorbed at different speeds, etc.
Unlike other teams, Texas A&M completely redesigns thier car with a whole new set of team members. I am a graduate student now, and was one of only 2 team members that advised this years team. Hard to say that a team that wins autocross and acceleration has a "poor design". We simply dont have any "exotic materials" to impress the judges. Plastic body, 4130 frame, nothing fancy. We design, test, test, test and test. This is a DESIGN compition, and if the design is simple, it should still be considered.

[aggie04]

Texas A&M Results:

Accel 1st
Autocross 1st
Skidpad 4th
Business 4th

[Jreyenga]

aggie04, was Frank driving the car? I got to meet a bunch of you guys at Topeka this last year (specifically Club Orleans).

I'm trying to figure out where the University of Florida ended up in the autocross. Between seeing some DNS's for the accel runs and pictures of the car apart I hope it was only minor things.

[aggie04]

Jordan and Vince did autocross, a rookie named bradley did accel, Dont know who got the skidpad time, jeff or bradley.

[Papa Lemming]

These are such great news from the F-SAE USB team. I'm incredibly glad everything's going great over there. Congratulations, and keep the good news coming!

[Jeff Curtis]

The thing you must remember about the design competition is that it is not an evaluation of how good your design output is. It is an evaluation of your design thought process, calculations, testing and execution. In other words, if the judges ask you what is the lateral load transfer distribution of you car?

A. If you answer, I don't know. That is a big mark against you.

B. If you answer, 60% to the front, but I don't know why or how we arrived at that. That is a decent answer.

C. If you answer, 60%, and here is why I arrived at this value. I did it

1. Though calculations using the tire's properties and tire's data.
2. I performed this useful simulation which suggested that this might be a direction to go in.
3. I evaluated 5 different combinations of settings at a track test and this was the best.

This is a great answer.

The point is, you need to understand as to why the "design" decision you made was made and then offer physical proof to back it up.

Just putting a car together and testing the hell out of it might yield you a very fast car, but it might not necessarily land you in final design.

This is at the heart of what engineering is all about and was instilled into me by Prof. George at Cornell. In professional racing, a good engineering design practice must always be tempered by good judgment and good practical common sense. But FSAE isn't professional racing, it an engineering competition, so therefore the judges want to see your car's design as an "engineered" project.

Jeff

[aggie04]

Yes, I agree with you.
We spend months verifying our design, including hundreds of hours of component testing (other than the car).
For example we discontinued using "fox mountain bike" shocks this year for larger diameter shocks that offer better low speed damping. To quantify what was "better" we purchased a shock dyno and tested the shocks.
Our chassis is fea'ed and then torsionally tested for verification to hit a "target" chassis stiffness to reach a 90% chassis efficiency.
Our suspension is analyzed both statistically and dynamically, with a team of 5 to specifically answer every question such as What effect changing rear toe has on understeer/oversteer...etc etc.
We don't spend alot of time and money to construct "sexy" nonstructural carbon-fiber bodies, and have good reasons for it.

Basically, I don't mean to imply that we don't properly "engineer" our design. I did mean to imply, however, that we are not considered on the same "design" level as other teams because we don't use turbo chargers, carbon fiber, titanium, magnesium, and other high-dollar items.

We analyze the dollar per pound an item will cost, along with other advantages such as stiffness, manufacturability, reliability, etc.

The current team spends months in weekly team meeting and several design presentations presenting and defending their design. My team last year finished in the top tier of the semi-finals, and based on my experience with the team this year, I suggest that they are better than we were. Last year, it was implied in a post comp discussion that we almost didn't make semis last year, because of the simplicity of our design.

A quote to end on-
"There are alot of things in a racecar that can make it go slower, but only a few things to make it go faster"�

[Denny Trimble]

From the posted Autocross Results:

1 55.843 Texas A&M (second driver's first run!)
2 56.782 Cornell
3 58.262 RMIT (rotor's second run)
4 58.322 UTA (John's second run)
5 58.535 U of Washington (my first run)
6 58.696 Wisconsin-Madison
7 58.736 Misourri-Rolla
8 59.099 Michigan - Ann Arbor
9 59.528 Penn State
10 59.579 Cincinnati
11 59.723 Alabama - Tuscaloosa
12 59.734 UWA

We had a pretty crazy day, chasing electrical bugs through accel and first autocross driver, then blowing a coolant hose across the lights on my first run, but fixing it and getting a second run on warmish tires. But, the course doesn't like to be driven hard, myself and Texas A&M's driver pushed harder on second runs but slowed down.

Where's that e-brake?

[Dan G]

Originally posted by aggie04:

We don't spend alot of time and money to construct "sexy" nonstructural carbon-fiber bodies, and have good reasons for it.

Check this out...

http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1731.sized.jpg

http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1730.sized.jpg

One of the simplest bodies I've seen in a while.

[aggie04]

Anybody got an excel file going with current standings, and who has to get what to win?

[aggie04]

I like the see through stuff, what it is exactly?
Our body is lexan-plastic, takes 1 guy to make, and costs about 40 bucks. I built a 10 foot oven to melt the plastic for forming.

[aggie04]

Cornell in cost - 4th
A&M in cost 73rd

I dont see how they get so low!?
This may hurt us in the end.

And yes, it all comes down to endurance.

[B.K.]

aggie04,

A large part of Cornell's good cost score comes from the fact that only 30% of the score comes from the actual cost of the vehicle. The remaining 70% comes from quality of the cost report, the manufacturing inspection at the competition, and the manufacturing process discussion. (Of course, that's not to say that Cornell doesn't work to reduce cost, too.)

And don't feel like you have to defend your team's design process to the rest of us on the forum (especially the Cornell a-holes). Your car, it is clear, is damn fast and damn solid. There's no way it would perform as well as it does if you guys hadn't engineered the hell out of it. Maybe you guys got shafted in design, maybe your presenters didn't come across well to the judges, who knows. But I'm sure you've got the Cornell guys scared... it's up for grabs tomorrow morning.

[James Waltman]

I updated my list of unofficial results. (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_Unofficial/)
Now the scores are in for Autocross and Presentation. The endurance run order has been announced.

First Set of Pictures (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit/index.htm)
Second Set of Pictures (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_2/index.htm)
Third Set of Pictures (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_3/index.htm)


Originally posted by aggie04:
I actually did the crush zone testing for the Texas A&M team last year. Yes, it is a crush zone as far as SAE is concerned. No other teams have anything better...
Meeting the rules doesn't mean it is a good impact attenuator. There are teams that do better. Are you willing to share any of your info about what your testing revealed? I have already shown my hand here. (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/85510167411/r/85510167411#85510167411) I just have a hard time believing that structures like that provide any kind of reasonable ride down. I will admit that the rule is pretty silly and that the impact attenuator will probably never help anyone.

[Denny Trimble]

Here's me typing numbers from James' photos into excel. I only got a few teams, I may have missed a team or two that has done very well. Also, design scores for finalists are still up in the air, but based on the attention they received in the tent, UWA probably has it wrapped up.

XLS (http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/2005FSAEUnofficialResults.xls)

[James Waltman]

Another group of pictures is up now. (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_4/images/images/index.htm)

First Set of Pictures (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit/index.htm)
Second Set of Pictures (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_2/index.htm)
Third Set of Pictures (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_3/index.htm)

Some things I saw during the AM run group of the endurance:
(These are VERY unofficial)
Drexel was pretty fast and finished
UC San Diego – looks like they got pulled off of the course too early. After a while they went back out and ran three more laps.
Helsinki – DNF with 1 lap to go
Iowa State first team to complete the endurance
Duke – Finished
USB Venezuela – DNF – Durning driver change
UM-Dearborn Finished but may have been pretty far off the pace
UC Berkely – DNF – Cooling problems
Maryland was fast but DNF
U Texas Austin – Finished Fastest Time of the AM run group (unofficial 66.192 seconds)
16 teams finished the AM run group out of 36.

The first run group this afternoon starts at 1pm (about half an hour from now). The perennial favorites and fast teams.

[Mike Shaw]

Originally posted by B.K.:
aggie04,

A large part of Cornell's good cost score comes from the fact that only 30% of the score comes from the actual cost of the vehicle. The remaining 70% comes from quality of the cost report, the manufacturing inspection at the competition, and the manufacturing process discussion. (Of course, that's not to say that Cornell doesn't work to reduce cost, too.)

And don't feel like you have to defend your team's design process to the rest of us on the forum (especially the Cornell a-holes). Your car, it is clear, is damn fast and damn solid. There's no way it would perform as well as it does if you guys hadn't engineered the hell out of it. Maybe you guys got shafted in design, maybe your presenters didn't come across well to the judges, who knows. But I'm sure you've got the Cornell guys scared... it's up for grabs tomorrow morning.

We know all about the proper way to put together a cost report. Last year, we lost maybe 3 points for formatting and during the manufacturing questions. We lost major points on the actual cost, which still perplexes me.

We've had 6 years to figure out the proper way to make a cost report, and we know how to make a good one. You think we can build a car that gets top in Accel, Autox, and Skidpad but dont know to put together a good report???

We know how; we aparently just haven't figured out the right way to "cheat" within the rules. Like I said before, it's all about loopholes. We are honest, and end up 73rd in this cost report, with our shox being our most exotic part.

Yet you have teams w/ turbos, air shifters, carbon fiber wings, etc that somehow come out cheaper??? WTF! I still dont see how a judge can look at that and not question the whole process.

Something like cost should be a little more cut & dry. You shouldn't have to know how to "tweak the numbers" to win that event.

[Jonathan S]

Word on the street is that UTA just got DQ'd from endurance. No word on other teams but I'm happy to say that UW finished clean and fast.

[Andres]

Congrats to UW, hey James do you know why USB didn't pass driver change??

[aggie04]

Texas A&M just DNFed on lab 15 right before lapping cornell.
Toe rod bolt broke.

[aggie04]

About the crush zone--
Our results showed the energy disipation is constant vs. speed, and is pretty consitant at about 5% of the energy of the car at 30 mph. (I don't remeber other specific details).
I dont think anyone really thinks it is actually a "good" crush zone, just meets the required rules.

[Jeff Curtis]

Heard that Cornell finished endurance, but that there were maybe a few other cars that were faster.

[Matt Ahl]

Top 5 results:

A&M- OUT
Cornell- Finished
RMIT- OUT
UTA- OUT, oil leak again.
UW- Fast time of the day by Denny, then Mike T topped it. SVSU did better than that later.

[Mark Bacchetti]

Bummer... UTA deserves a good finish in Detroit.

-Mark
Cal Poly Pomona

[Pavan Dendi]

Does anyone have any pictures of the autocross or endurance track map?

[jack]

texas A&M broke the inboard hiem on thier right rear pull-rod, it looked like. i heard someone on the team say that, after analyzing the failure, it was fatigue, not anything sudden. i think it was a 1/4 hiem.

UTA was leaking oil out of the rubber plug around the engine's wheel speed sensor wires. aperently, they rubber just got loose and crapped out.

RMIT had a cotter pin fall out of their rear spindle. the bolt didn't comeoff, but the wheel was loose.

if anyone has better details, feel free to correct me...

[Matt N]

umm, James...

why are there pictures of dudes in that last picture set?

Matthew

[James Waltman]

I've done the best I could today taking notes, I could be wrong about a lot of this, the times are not official, some of this may change but here we go....

This is mostly in Chronological order.

The first part of the endurance racing was by far the most exciting racing I have ever seen. So much action and passing. The teams were a few laps in when I started watching.

RMIT passes Cornell and blows them away

Denny sets fastest with a 64.4

UTA gains on Cornell
UTA hits 64.0

4 cars in the driver change at the same time. Texas A&M in first followed by RMIT. RMIT out first.

Denny hits 64.2

Texas A&M blows by RMIT

UTA is in the driver change for a LONG time.
UTA DNF

Denny hits 63.4

Cornell passes RMIT and Texas A&M at the same time. In the passing lane RMIT nearly rear end Texas A&M because something happened to the Aggie car. I asked the RMIT driver if they ran into them and he said "NEARLY!"�

RMIT passes Texas A&M

Texas A&M is held when they get around to the timing booths.
Texas A&M DNF

RMIT is held at the timing booth a lap or two later. Judges poor over the car.
RMIT DNF
I guess they had a bad wheel bearing (Left rear). The cotter pin may have backed out and the wheel nut came loose. Not entirely sure.

Penn State is on cold tires first lap and is passed by Michigan

UW second driver (Mike T) passes UMR and hits 61.86 second lap the fastest so far (probably by a lot)

Cornell completes endurance
UW completes endurance

U Western Australia is passed by a very fast SVSU car

UWA and SVSU both pass Oxford Brooks

U Michigan completes Endurance

SVSU end up behind UWA and behind Oxford Brooks

U Missouri Rolla is passed by Penn State

SVSU (first driver?) gets 61.264 lap VERY FAST - fastest time of the day

Penn State pulls away from UMR

UMR completes Enduro

U of Kansas in running in the 65 – 67 second range
Spin off the course – no big deal – back on

Penn State Completes Enduro

Michigan State is running in the 67 – 68 range

SVSU driver is running in the 66 range

Oxford Brooks is in the 63 second range

Kansas Catches Oxford Brooks

UWA completes Enduro

SVSU passes Waterloo
Next passing zone Waterloo Passes SVSU
I think the course workers saw that they were close together and figured SVSU was slow

Waterloo is running 67 seconds

Rutgers passes Lavel

SVSU last lap 67 seconds completes enduro

Oxford Brooks completes endurance

Announcement that Fastest Times of the day
SVSU
U Washington
RMIT
Cornell

North Carolina State passes Rutgers
NC State gets 64 seconds

Ryerson gets 64.064

U Kansas Done

Virginia Tech is running 70 seconds

Laval off course and passed by NC State

Rutgers Done

Oregon State is slower than Waterloo
Waterloo completes endurance before they get a chance to pass

Ryerson Passes Virginia Tech

Ryerson second driver is around 67 seconds

Florida gets 69 seconds

Ryerson gets 66.983 seconds

NC State passes Oregon State

Ryerson completes endurance

Oregon State has problems DNF

New Mexico gets 69.599 and 68.509 on first laps

Florida passes Toronto

NC State completes endurance

Lots of passing

Florida passes Toronto (again I guess)

Virginia Tech gets 69.811

U New Mexico second driver gets 67.088

Toledo in the low 70 seconds

U British Columbia is low 70 seconds

Toronto passes New Mexico

Toronto is running low 67

New Mexico is getting 71

Florida passes Toledo

Toronto is in the 66 – 67 range pretty consistently

Virginia Tech Completes Endurance

Toledo is making some sweet flames from the muffler on off throttle

Florida Spins out - long wait – DNF

Toronto passes U Brit Columbia

Oklahoma State is towed away with a mangled front right suspension - DNF

Toronto is 68 seconds

New Mexico Completes Enduro

Auburn gets 65.835 fastest time that anyone has hit for a while

U Brit Columbia passes Toledo

UIUC passes Toledo

CU Boulder is DNF?

UIUC passes U Brit Columbia

UIUC running low 69

U West Ontario is low 69

U Brit Columbia Completes Enduro – First time in 10 years – Congratulations Chris and Jovan

Auburn DNF


This is obviously not a complete recap. Please fill it out if you have more info or correct me if I'm wrong.
----------

Matt,
That was supposed to be a picture of Billy's wicked sunburn. I didn't mean for it to go on – kind of weird isn't it.

[Sam Zimmerman]

Thanks for the updates, James. You kick ass. Wish I could be there!

[Dan G]

My last batch of photos are up...

http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/FSAE05?page=6

<A HREF="http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/FSAE05?page=6" TARGET=_blank>http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1745.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1748.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1749.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1752.thumb.jpg
http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1753.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1754.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1755.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1759.thumb.jpg
http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1760.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1763.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1765.thumb.jpg http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/FSAE05/IMG_1785.thumb.jpg </A>

...they're all max res (1600x1200) and start at image number 1742.

Things worked out pretty good for my team, we finished enduro and won cost, both keeping with the KISS philosophy and reliability we were after. Its not like our B&S vtwin was going to start spitting coolant halfway through the enduro.

Land and Sea tells us we made 16 rwhp! Our accel time/weight calculation tells us its closer to 23. Either number is obviously not all that impressive, nor what the motor is supposed to be making from our builder. We're working on a MS'nS system to swap on in the next month for the rest of the summer.

[Moke]

Thanks to everybody keeping us on the other side of the world up to date.

Off topic:

IMO:

A lower cost car comes from clever thinking. Carbon fibre is expensive to buy, but cheap in the cost report (moulds don't cost, man hours less)

Ask yourself questions: Can this be cast? is it better to CNC with less time or hand make it which is cheaper but takes longer?

[BryanH]

Great Posts James, must have been hard work!
RMIT's problem was a wheel bearing chewing itself up. The car uses cartridge style double roller bearings. The incident with Texas A&M cost them a shot at beating Cornell so the wheel brg. was not so devasting but not finishing meant not knowing how many fuel economy points we would have scored over the 600cc cars.
The bearing was an unusual failure, probably due to the "offroad" style track and increased grip from the Hoosiers.
ps The Land&sea dyno figure at 35hp don't match fuel flow rates or on track performance.
It's a shame Rotor only got one chance at Detroit.
I'm really going to miss fsae.
but a lot more work might get done

[Mike Shaw]

Originally posted by jack:
texas A&M broke the inboard hiem on thier right rear pull-rod, it looked like. i heard someone on the team say that, after analyzing the failure, it was fatigue, not anything sudden. i think it was a 1/4 hiem.

UTA was leaking oil out of the rubber plug around the engine's wheel speed sensor wires. aperently, they rubber just got loose and crapped out.

RMIT had a cotter pin fall out of their rear spindle. the bolt didn't comeoff, but the wheel was loose.

if anyone has better details, feel free to correct me...

Yep, I talked to the guys on our team while they were drinking their sorrows away at Big Bucks http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It was a fatigue issue on the 1/4" rod end of one of the pullrods. Guess our new shocks and rocker orientation gave us some higher forces. DOH!

Other than some crazy testing on off-the-shelf rod ends, fatigue is one issue that's like black magic for analysis. Other than aluminum and certain steel parts (where we just threw in some stress reducers and removed any / all stress concentrations), we didn't do much fatigue analysis.

Looks like that's something we'll have to focus on more next year http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Thanks for the updates and picture everyone! It's amazing how intense the competition is getting, and how much it is spreading. With all this passing and racing action, it would be nice if a TV network covered at least the endurance event. Only one 1-hr show would be necessary for the top teams. Maybe SPEED channel, or TLC or Discovery could do it?

Guess the Big 3 aren't teh ones to sponsor that though, considering their financial situations.

Congrats Cornell and the other finishers. Good job on making some quality cars!

Road & Track tomorrow! Gig 'em Ags!

[Nizmo95911]

Anybody know the final results?!!!!!!!

[Matt Ahl]

This is all I know:

Enduro Results
1. Cornell
2. UW (slower by 2 seconds total)
3. UWA (slower by 2 seconds from UW)

Enduro+Fuel Economy Results:
1. Cornell
2. UWA
3. UW

Overall
1. Cornell
2. UWA
3. UW Madison
4. Waterloo
5. UW

[Swimmy]

Does anyone know how Penn State finished? Thanks!

[James Waltman]

Final Results:
1. Cornell University
2. University of Western Australia
3. University of Wisconsin-Madison
4. University of Waterloo
5. University of Washington
6. Penn State University
7. North Carolina State University
8. Saginaw Valley State University
9. University of Missouri-Rolla
10. Ryerson University

These are the official results they handed out at the end of the awards banquet. This is just the main page.
2005 FSAE Final Results pg1 (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_Unofficial/2005_FSAE_FinalResults_pg1.JPG)
2005 FSAE Final Results pg2 (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_Unofficial/2005_FSAE_FinalResults_pg2.JPG)
2005 FSAE Final Results pg3 (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_Unofficial/2005_FSAE_FinalResults_pg3.JPG)

The difference between 4th and 5th place is 0.422 points!!

111 teams showed up.
108 teams started the endurance!
48 teams completed the endurance!!

Design Event
1. U of Western Australia
2. Waterloo
3. Penn State
4. Cornell
5. RMIT

[RaID]

just a quick question to the WA guys

at 04 FSAE-A you guys said you were going to have your wings ready for the Detroit competition,

ran out of time or or just ditched the idea over all? just wondering

nice work on the result

[CMURacing - Prometheus]

to be honest, i'm perplexed by cornell's rediculous cost score too. We lost 15 points for price, and only 10 of the remaining 70 in report/event day discussion, and yet we were 70th (2 above a&m). Because we implemented a new purchasing procedure this year, I had every single receipt for every piece of the car, and our CNC programmers gave me machining time for those parts in 1 minute increments. Other than using rediculously short jig/assembly times and costs, i don't see how a team like cornell can score 90+ points (meaning they lost less than 10 on price, or about $14000 by my calcs) with all their goodies is difficult to believe at best.

[Denny Trimble]

Raid,
The individual working on wings gave up on it, and we haven't pursued it since.

The '04 FSAE courses were much faster than the '03 and '05; this year I'd hate to have wings on the car in Detroit. Topeka, however...

I'll post pics of the full results tonight to fill the gap before SAE makes the spreadsheet available.

I'm hanging out at SVSU, getting ready to drive tomorrow... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Denny Trimble]

OK, here are snapshots of the results and the two coursemaps:
http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/2005results/

I had a great time this year, I talked with more people than ever, it was really amazing.

My respect goes out to each and every team.

P.S.
I'm thinking of changing my sig to "DNF'd Big Buck 2005". I feel like such an ass... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[BryanH]

"thanks" for the bearing snapshot Denny
You are a hopeless smart..... sometimes!
Did they get the car back together for R&T?
Bryan H

[Denny Trimble]

Halfast,
Sorry, I've taken it down. Let me know if you want to see more, though.

You guys were fast, and didn't deserve to go out like that. There's not much anyone can say to console a DNF that steals a top 5 finish, I've been there before as well. But RMIT, UTA, A&M all have my respect. It was a fast group this year.

I wasn't awake for R&T, I don't know.

Also, I've heard through word of mouth that the announced lap times in endurance were BS, at least our 61.8. The official timing is separate from the announced times, apparently there are individuals with stopwatches in the announcing vehicle.

Does anyone have a contact for EDS or a printout of endurance lap times? I'm sure several teams would be very interested to see the numbers.

[jack]

did anyone catch torsion numbers for UWA, RMIT, and Penn state?

also, i didn't get a chance to ask the UWA guys their wheel rate, anyone got it?

[Michael Jones]

Just got in a bit ago and heard about this thread through the grapevine.

It was a strange trip for Cornell in general and myself personally. I was more or less a pinch-hitter this year - I'd throw in my two cents when required or I felt it was necessary, but otherwise laid back until this week.

Sunday to Thursday was a 80-hour week, spanning everything from truck packing to logistics to cost and business presentation assistance.

This was largely driven by my lapsing into catatonic boredom waiting for my dissertation edits to materialize. I figured I'd head to competition anyway, so why not snag a ride and see what I can do to help out.

It was also highly driven by the fact that Cornell's team needed the help. Anyone who talked to us this year discovered pretty quickly how incredibly unsure we were about finishing endurance, much less doing well.

The car had reliability issues right to the end. As much as 2004's car was a immutable force (200+ hours of testing, no major issues) 2005's car was a real pain in the ass, and all the hardcore effort in the world didn't seem to advance things much.

Things gelled amazingly well in the last two weeks or so, and I was blessed to be involved with this process first hand in the last week. The car was good when it ran, but it ran so infrequently. This in turn impacted testing, refinement, and general team administration.

I was giving us about a 25% chance to finish endurance, and if done, not very well. We were basically expecting to beat ourselves. We didn't. God knows how or why. I guess He figured the last couple of months of purgatory was sufficient.

The quality of competition continues to improve. Of the five years I've been involved with Cornell's team, this is the first I've seen a number of high-quality contenders getting too close for comfort. UWA and Wisconsin put in solid runs, A&M, UTA and especially RMIT's first driver were giving me ulcers in endurance. And it was nice to see the Ryerson car mature into a top 10 finisher, SVSU rip it up again, Waterloo return to the top 5, USB make secondary design, and as noted earlier today, record green flag and endurance completion numbers.

Based on the narration at the awards banquet, we're considering asking Target for a sponsorship. Hell, they already sponsor racing, the color scheme matches, and we know damn well that we're in a lot of people's sights. Keep aiming. UTA, A&M - be warned that Michigan does not permit concealed weapons, so leave those at home, will ya?

P.S. Given I've done at least some bit of cost over the last five years now, I'll answer the cost issue. Our car is retardedly simple in the end - very well integrated and refined, but basic R&D of course isn't costed, only materials and production labor is.

Labour costs are checked as near as I can figure - if you're way off logical expectation or (most likely) the median score for that part, you'll get dinged.

It also helps that we build many parts (e.g., engine control) from scratch, so we are essentialy saving Motec (or similar ECUs) overhead, profit, marketing and associated expenses buried in retail price.

And this year especially, the report was as close to flawless as I've seen (the core cost team did a kick ass job) and the day's judging went perfect - apparently, I'm now reasonably expert in lean manufacturing principles as applied to FSAE cars, and the technical folk spun off brilliant descriptions with very limited prep time.

Kudos to all involved on that - like the rest of the competition, it was the right mix of good people, good design, good timing, and good luck. Perhaps a bit too much of the latter, but whatever.

--
Michael Jones
Cornell Racing [2001-2005]

[ben]

Congratulations to all those who made it to the event and particularly Cornell who continue to be pretty much the most consistent team out there.

I would also like to agree with Michael on the cost issue, I looked at Cornell's car last year and anything trick in terms of electronics seemed to be in-house, those bits are very cheap as Michael has pointed out, the rest of the car was very conventional.

We did ok in Detroit last year and won cost in the UK, presentation is everything. Also if you don't get 100% on the manufacturing process questions you're losing easy marks. I do agree that the cost report format and rules aren't perfect but it's the same for everyone.

Ben

[Mike Claffey]

Congratulations everyone who competed, alot of us on the other side of the world were on the edge of our seats waiting for information to come in =]

RaID: Since FSAE-A we have decieded to take a longer term approach to wings. I think it came down to they simply were not ready early enough. The amount of testing that has to go into any component on the car is massive, and especially so with a system that can change so many aspects of the car - like Aero. UWA Team Aero is still alive but we could not justify putting something on the car that had not been tested to the degree that other systems have been.

keep the photos and info coming,

Mike
UWA Motorsport

[clif2001]

Does anyone know the official results of R&T? What teams participated and what were the final results?

[BryanH]

Denny please put it back up, I was just legpulling. besides the Cornell guys may want a copy. Yes I'd love to see all of your shots.
Hard to get upset when we lose a race to a component failure, its not like someone has stuffed up or driver error.
When everyone has gotten some sleep it would be good to read some dispassionate observations on 450cc single V. 600/4 now that you guys got to see both race head to head.
My thoughts after Dragstrip was wow! there are at least 50 well tuned 600's running and WR450 = not enough torque and 5 valves are 11 too few. Maybe RO4 would be a better package with an FZR in back! But on reflection it was maybe a 20 point hit here versus the 600's historically taking a 40 point hit in fuel econ. against RMIT, so that more or less balances out. The roughness of the track seems to negate a fair part of any advantage a 380lb car may have over the more normal 440lb cars.
Bryan H.

[Mike Shaw]

I talked to the guys at the competition, and word is A&M won R&T for the 2nd straight year. Seems all was not lost, although finishing endurance would have made the trip all the sweeter.

Not sure of the times or anything.

Here's to free advertising courtesy of Road & Track. WHOOP! WHOOP! WHOOP!

http://www.roadandtrack.com/assets/image/1072004143624.jpg

Good job to all the teams that finished. 20 laps is not an easy task, especially pulling the loads these cars do. With so many parts, and such a delicate balace between weight and design factors, designing a winning car is no easy task.

Someone really ought to send a video of the enduarance to Speed channel or maybe ESPN-U and see if we cant get some TV coverage of the next competition. I really enjoy watching the competition, especially since such a variety of schools are representing.

[CMURacing - Prometheus]

i don't think we'll ever get coverage if SAE decides to keep having it on the same weekend as the monaco gp...i've missed it 2 years running now, and that's not cool.

[Wilso]

hey mike shaw, who's texas university? They must not teach you much down there in sheep fucking town. We are The University of Texas at Austin, you can read it about four spots above Texas A&M in the overall standings. And tell your ringer he's way to cocky, too good to talk racing with someone from UT who posted the fastest endurance time of the morning...BTW does he even know what a heim joint is?

[leadfootedfool]

Does anyone know the winners of the various awards?

[BuddyJ]

Originally posted by leadfootedfool:
Does anyone know the winners of the various awards?

Yeah, I wanna know if OU won the Brake award again. Twice in a row would rock.

[clif2001]

Wilso,

Why so bitter? You should be proud of what your team did....but it hardly puts you in a position to get cocky.

[Didier Beaudoin]

Originally posted by Foote:
Some of the acceleration runs
West Australia 4.32
Lehigh 5.37
RMIT 4.671
Penn State 4.285
SVSU 4.135
Cornell 4.135
Texas A&M 4.049
I don't think anyone beat texas.

I think we might be a transparent team, not a single picture of our car in the 1000 pictures posted here, and now even our 4.186 acceleration run gets forgotten. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif And by the way, I doubt SVSU made that time as we finieshed 4th behind Texas A&M, Cornell and Drexel.

[JadgPzIV]

I think we might be a transparent team, not a single picture of our car in the 1000 pictures posted here, and now even our 4.186 acceleration run gets forgotten.

Same things for Laval, McGill, Chicoutimi and Trois-Rivière Didier... maybe all quebec's team are invisible! Only a few pictures on 1000!

[BeaverGuy]

Don't feel to bad the first picture of anything from our team were our four 12" subs.

[Dan G]

Sorry for missing shots of your cars guys. My camera filled up when I was 2/3rds of the way through the autox line on Friday. I meant to get a bunch more Saturday but I was just not in the mood. And it was tough keeping track of which schools I'd already shot and which I hadn't.

Here's a tip for getting your car in lots of pictures. Find an uber hot chick to put in the drivers seat wearing skimpy clothing. I guarantee your car will be the most photographed one at the event!

[Mike Shaw]

Originally posted by Wilso:
hey mike shaw, who's texas university? They must not teach you much down there in sheep fucking town. We are The University of Texas at Austin, you can read it about four spots above Texas A&M in the overall standings. And tell your ringer he's way to cocky, too good to talk racing with someone from UT who posted the fastest endurance time of the morning...BTW does he even know what a heim joint is?

I don't know how you can get off talking to me like that. Don't you have a better place you can post your bitter, stereotypical insults than this message board?

I don't need to prove A&M's worth in any area of sports or academia to you or anyone else on this board. I certainly dont need to prove A&M's worth in the FSAE competition -- our cars do more than enough talking.

Ever since the inception of FSAE at A&M we have been a threat as a top contendender, posting 3 top 5 finishes in the 7 short years we have been involved. We are one of the top teams every year, and will continue to do so for years to come. The only thing that separates us or any other top team from that 1st place finish is judge biases in designs, loopholes in the cost reporting process, and freak failures in endurance.

Does this signify that we or any other top team that don't finish endurance are any less smart, less hard working, or less of a competative team? NO. We proved this year we are one of the best with first place finishes in autox, acceleration, and a 3rd place finish in skidpad. We had true shot at the #1 spot if we could have made those last 7 laps.

Even so, our school, college of engineering, and former FSAE members have nothing but pride for this year's team and all they accomplished. That pride will be shown for the world to see this November in the R&T magazine, and neitehr you nor anyone else can take that away.

This is a board for building up fellow FSAE members from various schools across the world. The comments you've posted are an insult to both you, your team, and your school. Your name and IP should be banned from this forum for destructive attitude.

[UNMLobo]

First, I want to thank everyone who worked so hard on updates for those of us who couldn't be at comp this year. You didn't have to put that extra time in, it's cool people like you that help make being a part of FSAE so awesome.

Second, I want to say congrats to the University of New Mexico for their 14th place finish. UNM has been working really hard the last three years to bring the quality of our cars up to par with the really good teams, and now I think we are finally there. I know there are more than a couple of teams that didn't deserve the place they got, but UNM is very proud to be in the top 20 overall for the first time!! Thanks to all the teams that have been so cool to us and helpful the last couple of years, especially UTA and UW.

Go Lobos!!

[B.K.]

Originally posted by Mike Shaw:

Don't you have a better place you can post your bitter, stereotypical insults than this message board? ... Your name and IP should be banned from this forum for destructive attitude.

Yeah. Wilso should strive to follow your lead and be constructive and not at all bitter:


Originally posted by Mike Shaw:

The only thing that separates us or any other top team from that 1st place finish is judge biases in designs, loopholes in the cost reporting process, and freak failures in endurance.

Classy. Damn classy.

[Denny Trimble]

Can't we just settle this all at the Texas Autocross Weekend? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I've put the RMIT pic and more back up. Working on an SVSU GP gallery, I'll start another thread for that.

[Ben Beacock]

Anyone know what the winning db reading was for the noise award? we got 88.8, but I have this strange feeling that since we were the first through noise that the meter was still warming up. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
i think were were much closer to 110db.

[CMURacing - Prometheus]

i heard some team had a crazy anti-resonance chamber that put them under the noise limit at the requisite piston speed and way over everywhere else.

[Jeff Curtis]

Beat me to the punch B.K.

I have to say it, If "If's and but's were candy and nuts..."

Trust me, I see it every week at the race track on the highest level of motorsports. Bad luck, politics of the officials, loose wheels and all other types of stuff out of my control, but most of the time, bad luck and your breaks that you judge as unfair are usually a product of the man in the mirror. 90% of racing teams week in and week out don't get beat by the competition, they get beat by themselves.

Jeff

[RaID]

Originally posted by Denny Trimble:
Raid,
The individual working on wings gave up on it, and we haven't pursued it since.

The '04 FSAE courses were much faster than the '03 and '05; this year I'd hate to have wings on the car in Detroit. Topeka, however...

I'll post pics of the full results tonight to fill the gap before SAE makes the spreadsheet available.

I'm hanging out at SVSU, getting ready to drive tomorrow... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks for the reply, but i was asking about the Western Australian guys, talking to then at FSAE-A 04 they said they almost got their wings done for that competition and should have them done for detroit,
i was just wondering what happened to them?

thanks

[JPaolicchi]

You'all can shut up. I liked the group from Texas A&M. They all were in good spirits for the Sunday road & track event despite the endurance result. Its a tough pill to swallow to go from 1st to 47th, and they showed a lot of class not to cry about it.

Mike - don't take it so personal. Forums can be a tough place. People vent thier own frustrations. I had to endure the "worst FSAE ever" thread last year.


Joe Paolicchi, FSAE

[Wilso]

Yeah, I might be bitter, the 24-hour drive can do that to anyone. We too got caught up in the design loop holes and what not. I just hate how A&M can take the rivalry too far at times. Last year we had one of the worst cars in my opinion but I still worked hard to help get it there and did my best. We were down and some of the aggies kept kicking. Destroying our expensive magnetic logos is not cool. We have to pay for those you know. I apologize if I've offended people, I may have taken it over the line in an inappropriate setting. Hopefully we can get together at Arlington...although i'm sure you guys will still eat us for lunch. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Again my apologies to everyone.

-Chris Auerbach
UT FSAE Co-Captain 2005

[Big Bird]

Congrats to all on what was obviously a great event. Unfortunately I couldn't make it this year, after too many years of FSAE left my wallet looking rather under-nourished. I would have loved to have been there to see all the big names in action - maybe the lads from Cornell might spend their winnings on a trip to Oz in December http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My congrats to all the lads at RMIT for putting on what must have been a damn good show. If I may take the opportunity to talk up my old team-mates, over the past few years I've had the opportunity to work with some of the most hard-working, talented and good-humoured individuals that I've ever met. Thanks all for putting in so much effort to prove a concept that no-one thought would ever succeed. Maybe the final result wasn't as hoped, but it seems you sure opened a few eyes.

A crying shame about the wheel bearing, but that's racing I guess. Someone will win this thing with a single one day http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And I'll finish with a big thumbs up to all the lads at UWA. A well deserved result!

Cheers all

[James Waltman]

Didier and Guillaume,
I still have about another 800 pictures to put up right now (and some that won't make it up for sure). You may be in some of those. Maybe I can setup to upload during breaks from the Claude Rouelle seminar tomorrow. I would be happy to host pictures for anyone. Just send me and email and we can work it out.

Your acceleration time is impressive. I wrote the numbers down for some of the cars I watched and then had Justin post them because he was heading back to the hotel. Of course I can't be blamed so it must be Justin's fault.

Ben,
Drexel won the Bruel and Kjaer Quite Cup. I don't know what their reading was. I'll try to type up all of the rewards in the next day or two if SAE doesn't beat me to it.

[UTA racer rikki]

Hello all,

Just to clarify what happened to UTA, it was the "speedo" sensor on the top side of the engine which the bolts backed out of. A part that we don't even tough, except to cut the wires off of. Not only that, it was broken into two pieces. Racer's luck, maybe. Missed on the nut and bolt check, yes.

Another year, another lesson. Then there is Nationals.

p.s. Denny, I will remember the good time we had at Big Buck's Sat. Night and I am sure you were right! When we're fifty, we're gonna be talking about Itty Bitty!

Night all-

[Chris Davin]

Geez, the bullets have really been flying! As I am now an FSAE alum, I think I've earned the right to say a few things here.

Texas A&M had a fast combination of car and driver (as they have had in previous years). They were obviously a very strong team this year and if they finished enduro they would have had a good shot at winning. But, as everyone here should know, that's a pretty big 'if.' Their car didn't get struck by lightning - it had a part break, and parts break for a reason. Cornell has been there before, as B. K. knows for sure. In 2000, the Cornell team was doing very well and had a brakes failure during enduro. Texas A&M won and deserved it 100%. Now, it appears, the situation is reversed. The A&M team should let it motivate them to test the hell out of their 2006 car. The world will be closely watching the competition(s) next year and I'm sure A&M will be a powerful force on the track.

I would also like to echo what Mike Jones said about our team. For various reasons, we lost a LOT of team members this year - on the order of 20! Many people, myself included, were forced to over-burden themselves by taking over the responsibilities of those who left. This came at the expense of sleep, health, and grades. Despite a seemingly endless amount of work and one demoralizing failure after another, many members of our team worked diligently to try to keep the car driving. Things hit rock bottom around mid-April when the car had not driven for weeks and most members were burned out, broken, and on the verge of failing their classes. More than a few were considering quitting. I was questioning whether we'd be able to take a running and legal car to competition. But, a few people took on a "let's go down swinging" attitude, and it spread. The two weeks before competition saw a remarkable transformation of our car. The offending parts of our car got the attention they needed from the right people in time (albeit barely) to race. Our success this year was no accident, nor was A&M's in 2000 or Wollongong's in 2003. I'm very proud of our team this year, particularly the way they were able to stay focused and keep their spirits up even in the darkest hour. I'm sharing this because I hope it will be inspiring to many teams in the future. I'll leave you with this:

http://www.rose.ph/archives/Never_give_up.jpg

PS - Thanks to all the alumni for their support.

[Eddie Martin]

Congratulations to all the teams that competed. Thanks for the constant updates. I know a lot of alumni from around the world like to keep track of what is going on at the competition.

Another slick performance by Cornell, those guys are always hard to beat.
Fantastic result by the UWA guys, first in design and second overall is very very impressive.
It's a shame RMIT didn't finish the enduro and get to destroy the fuel economy event but i'm sure a lot of people now realise how fast a single can go, i'm confident there will be 10 to 15 extra singles on the track next year.
Also a shame that Oakland University didn't finish the enduro, their car was around 60 lbs lighter this year, which is a great effort for such a small team.

Hopefully 5 to 10 North American teams head down under for the Australian competition in December.

To follow the thread a bit there is no such thing as luck in Motorsport. Unless a bolt of lightening hits the car or some other freak occurrence happens the failure is human in origin. I know a lot of people may be disappointed that their car didn't finish the enduro or that they had problems but there is always next year or if you are graduating i'm sure you will look back on your time in fsae with a lot of fondness. After the sobering events leading up to the competition things could be a lot worse.

UOW Racing `01-`04

[Big Bird]

Originally posted by Eddie Martin:

...... but there is always next year or if you are graduating i'm sure you will look back on your time in fsae with a lot of fondness. After the sobering events leading up to the competition things could be a lot worse.

UOW Racing `01-`04

Very well put Eddie.

Cheers mate

[clif2001]

Man, I forgot about the effect fsae has on one's sleep shedule. You guys are up all night on this thing. Good luck to all getting back to life as usual...at least for a few more months.

[clif2001]

Chris,

I'll have to agree with you. We've always had at least 6 weeks of hard testing performed on our cars, but we've had a lot of luck also (at least in the early years). It's easy to have confidence in the speed of a car, but Endurance keeps everyone on their toes. It's too easy to overlook something, but when everything clicks it's a sweet feeling. Congrats to Cornell. Five years ago there were only a hand-full of schools that had a shot at winning. It's great to see so many schools in the chase these days. This competition is finally becoming what it was meant to be. I have a feeling next year will be even better.

[Michael Jones]

It's a shame RMIT didn't finish the enduro and get to destroy the fuel economy event but i'm sure a lot of people now realise how fast a single can go, i'm confident there will be 10 to 15 extra singles on the track next year.


Agreed - the RMIT car was the closest thing I've seen to pulling off a successful single, not only in design but in performance - by our timing, RMIT's first driver was kicking both our and A&M's ass by 2s a lap and UTA's by 1s. I look forward to seeing that again.

As for heading to Oz to do so, I'd be impressed if we could arrange the time and money to do FSAE-West. Both FSAE-A and Formula Student fall at weird times in the academic year (Oz during fall exams, Student during summer when the team is on hiatus...)

And as for money...well, the Cornell budget rumour escalated to 250-300K this year, which I found amusing.

We're hardly poor - I'd guess our budget's above the median - but probably not by much and certainly not scratching six figures. Think $40-45K. That's it. Seriously. If you have reason to disagree, please let me know where our hundreds of thousands of dollars are. I could use a vacation.

And I'm less than convinced about "loopholes" or "biases" design and cost. Evaluation in both can be somewhat subjective, yes, but there are successful (and less than successful) strategies in both.

I've said my bit on cost above, so I'll hit design.

UWA didn't win design for the second year in a row based on some sketchy exploitation of loopholes or swaying of the judges via a better brand of bullshit.

They won design two years in a row because they have a proper and cleanly presented car, push the envelope in innovative design, and - probably most important - know their shit backwards and forwards.

Same recipe for us making final the last four years, winning it in 2002. The 2002 car was so together and well presented it left Carroll Smith speechless...The 2003 Wollongong car at FSAE-A did the same, and it showed when they won design in 2003 in Detroit.

UWA's last two wins have been equally deserved. Making baseless insinuations about loopholes and subjective bias does them a gross disservice.

--

Michael Jones
Cornell Racing (2001-2005)

[Kevin Hayward]

Don't think that anybody from UWA has posted yet so I'll chuck something onto this one.

It was absolutely amazing for us to come up to Detroit and be a part of this competition. I'd like to make a lits of all the teams we have learnt a whole heap from but I'm too afraid I'll miss someone out. The level of knowledge behind these cars is phenomenal. I think this is reflected in the judges wanting nothing less than teams full of professional race engineers.

The sheer pace of some of the teams has shown excellent engineering and driving. I think we all need to find ways to get up to Texas A&M's speed or they may become unbeatable.

Anyway I'm starting to get a tear in my eye http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Big congrats to Cornell ... you guys once again showed why you are the team to beat. You do yourselves and your University proud.

Kev
(ex - FSAE Team Member)

p.s. To Geoff and Eddie ... would have been great to have you guys over for the comp. Look forward to sharing a beer next time we get the chance.

[vinHonda]

Nice to see so many alums posting.... alums from successful teams too!

This year was my first year away from FSAE and just like Eddie said and Geoff echoed, FSAE will always be remembered.

To wave the Canadian flag a little, big ups to Will Chan and the entire Waterloo team (typically our rivals) for finishing 4th overall.

To my team mates who built the 05 Toronto car, its unfortunate about that pull rod....get em in the UK.....we typically do!

reading all the posts really got me hyped about competition and brought back a lot of fond memories.

I got feedback from some alums who went down to Pontiac that the level of mid-field teams has again upped the bar.

Congrats to Cornell once again. There's gotta be a way to make this series more known. A lotta bright engineers who are gonna change the face of the industry come outta FSAE.

I hope to make it Pontiac next year.

Cheers,

[Mike Shaw]

I think we all need to find ways to get up to Texas A&M's speed or they may become unbeatable.

Kev


It's the simple combination of a big school (43K+ students) and a strong local SCCA chapter where we have a good pool of experienced autox racers to pull from.

Every year we wonder what we will do when the current speed racers graduate and leave, until we hear about a few more new guys with mad skillz that can lead us to victory.

Call it luck, or just call it a great driver training program. We probably spend as much time getting practice time in for the drivers while tuning the cars as we do building the car. After all, a fast, well-designed car can't win anything without a good driver to use the car's full potential.

I know some of yall mention how much it hurts when you lose 15+ team members to graduation. That happens to us every year! Our project is a senior design class, and although we get 5 hrs of design credit for it, we lose all that knowledge and experience each year, save for 5-10 volunteers, design reports and CD's.

Good luck to everyone next year! I'm sure all the members of the 2006 teams worldwide spent the majority of time on the way home talking about what their car will look like, and what will be differnt, and how they will get that #1 spot. I know we did in 2003 http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[CMURacing - Prometheus]

I think some of the "loopholes" in cost come from things you can afford that a team with a normal budget (which i believe is almost half of what you have, I know its less than that for us) can't, like development of a custom ECU and custom shocks. perhaps teams should be asked to cost depreciation/amortization of the machines used, then equalize everything to the $35 labor rate. in this way, CNC will still be more expensive than manual machining, and the teams that can afford shock dynos, big electronics test rigs, engine dynos, etc. will take their hit. just my two cents though.

[adrial]

One of our teammembers has an awesome camera...check out the pics.

http://stoopidsavant.com/v-web/gallery/0505fsae

We were running with no swaybars because we were having some issues with them in the rear...IE we kept breaking em.

[Dan G]

Originally posted by adrial:
One of our teammembers has an awesome camera...check out the pics.

http://stoopidsavant.com/v-web/gallery/0505fsae

Wow, those are really good shots! I need to break down and get an actual camera, instead of the point and shoot junk I have now. 2x optical zoom just doesn't cut it for anything more than 25 feet away.

[K. Werkley]

Originally posted by adrial:
One of our teammembers has an awesome camera...check out the pics.

http://stoopidsavant.com/v-web/gallery/0505fsae

We were running with no swaybars because we were having some issues with them in the rear...IE we kept breaking em.

Congradulations guys. That car is SWEEEET!

[Mad Ruska]

Thanks to all, who posted all the news.
I´m so sorry that i can´t be there, but the world is to big.

After leaving FSAE one part of my live is missing. But what is left are a lot of new friends all over the world.

But we will come back! See you in UK in summer!

Vinh, can you contact me of list: madruska#at#hotmail#dot#de

Frank Roeske

[Customline]

I was looking at the results that were handed out at the banquet and counted only 43 teams who recieved points for the Endurance run, although 48 teams finished. We (University of Alberta) being one of them, since were were some of the last to finish is there a possibility that these are not the final results?

[BuddyJ]

What may have happened is that they finished but used too much gas. OU finished in 02 (I think) with zero points because we didn't meet the fuel economy req.

[Marshall Grice]

Think $40-45K. That's it.

Holy Crap! No wonder we can't compete. Our budget was barely a third of that, and that was a good year.

[adrial]

Originally posted by Marshall Grice:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Think $40-45K. That's it.

Holy Crap! No wonder we can't compete. Our budget was barely a third of that, and that was a good year. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've got company down there moneywise... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Michael Jones]

Definitely we're above the median, no question. But we're certainly not the top of the heap budget-wise. I wouldn't even put us top ten. I know at least a few schools are in the $50K+ range.

Last year, the folks at Hartford were laughing at our sorry asses as our Wal-Mart canopy disappeared like a fart in a gale-force wind. It'd be very cool to have a proper trailer. We're not getting one for years, unless some gracious Cornell alumni donates the cash for one.

Kolp, I'd look in your general direction, but you're returning to grad school (and in the arts at that...) Welcome to the hell of perpetual poverty, my friend. Enjoy it. You might as well.

[B.K.]

Originally posted by Michael Jones:
Kolp, I'd look in your general direction, but you're returning to grad school (and in the arts at that...) Welcome to the hell of perpetual poverty, my friend. Enjoy it. You might as well.

Well, I didn't send any cash when I was actually doing engineering, so I oughta throw the team a few hundo before I get all po'.

[burtoncr]

Originally posted by adrial:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Marshall Grice:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Think $40-45K. That's it.

Holy Crap! No wonder we can't compete. Our budget was barely a third of that, and that was a good year. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You've got company down there moneywise... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to note, Cornell gives us almost nothing other than the office space and a few "Engineering Research Grants" that we apply for (they add up to about $1k each year if we are lucky)

The rest of the money comes from calling companies and asking for sponsorship.

- chris

[vinHonda]

As a non-cornell team member from Toronto, I'll vouch for them: they DO NOT have a formidable budget. Rumours of them having massive budgets is absurd. Case in point: check out their driver's suits.......and then compare them to New Delhi's driver's suits. I don't think any team has a massive budget really. With the few extra thousand dollars the Toronto team had, we spent it on competing in the UK at Fstudent. Cornell rarely leaves North America.

Ppl should get off their backs about budget. At the end of the day, they place very high in every single category and have a wicked fast car that does well in the slow corners and rockets quickly to and through the fast ones.

Cheers,

[clif2001]

Cornell is right...the size of a teams budget can change significantly with a few phone calls. When we first entered this competition we worked hard to establish relationships with companies in our area and they continue to support the team. A great deal of our support comes in the form of services and materials. It never hurts to ask for free stuff. The worst thing they can say is no.

Clif Oberle

Texas A&M '01-'02

[James Waltman]

More pictures are up. I think that this should be the last of them from us.

First Set of Pictures (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit/index.htm)
Second Set of Pictures (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_2/index.htm)
Third Set of Pictures (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_3/index.htm)
Fourth Set of Pictures (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_4/images/images/index.htm)
Fifth Set of Pictures (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_5/index.htm)
Sixth Set of Pictures (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_6/index.htm)
Seventh Set of Pictures (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_7/index.htm)

I'll try to name them and comment on them eventually. That might take a while because there are about 1500 pictures.

Has anyone else noticed how many people are viewing this topic? It's huge. The number of people online here has probably been 10 times higher than normal for a while now.

[Michael Jones]

Originally posted by clif2001:
It never hurts to ask for free stuff. The worst thing they can say is no.


Yep. Helps to have a subteam charged with doing just that as well - both getting new sources of monetary and parts sponsorship and keeping old sources in the loop.

As for money, Vinh's got it right. We're certainly not crying poor - I know other teams operate on much less, and I'm constantly amazed with what they can pull off in spite of it. Brilliant work.

Otherwise, though, we're as threadbare as our generic driving suits. Which isn't all that bad. Prof. George keeps the budget under control even during good times for good reason - it forces people to think efficiently and design with simplicity in mind.

Lack of time is an issue as well. Formula Student is perhaps feasible financially with full shipping sponsorship, but our team is pretty much AWOL for the summer, making it a logistical nightmare. Cornell's not much of a summer school, so we really only operate nine months of the year.

Time would be very helpful in conquering the world of sketchiness from which our design posters emerge as well. People sometimes note that they look like they were thrown together at the last moment. They're usually bang on. I believe most of the charts went on there about an hour before preliminary this year. In 2003, we didn't even have posters for preliminary, sketchy ones for secondary, and finally got it close to right for final.

We look at the extraordinarily professional jobs other teams have with envy, vow to do better next time, and end up rabidly gluing shit to posterboard in a hotel room anyway.

I'm only partially amazed it works - there's something to be said for living at the edge of chaos after all - but all things being equal, we'd really like the time and money to do it right, at least once.

Certainly one of those things to fix before resolving the sketchiness of our driving gear, our makeshift rental truck lab, our team apparel, etc.

Ah well, baby steps. This year's success - an on-site donation of a real canopy and some fold-out chairs, courtesy I believe of the Bartons. George Jr's gift, arranged by his father, who showed up with his BBQ and whipped up some serious nutrition yet again. Friday night's BBQ is one of my favorite parts of competition.

While stoking your corporate connections, keep your alumni in mind too. Ours are fantastic - a great local network and we always get a few dropping in from miles away. In 2003 when the car crashed 10 days before leaving for competition, the alumni network sprung to action and we had about $600 of wings and Red Bull in a matter of days.

Our alumni kick ass. Someday, I hope to join their ranks [insert profanity-laced dissertation angst here].

[JordonMusser]

Congrats to Cornell! As usual they had a solid car. Sorry I forgot your name (Cornell driver) but it was nice to meet you and duke it on on the R&T circuit.

wilso-
I think all Mike Shaw mean't was that most people don't realize that when somebody says "Texas" university, they are talking about UT, even tho they MEAN'T Texas A&M. Even the announcer at the competition called us just plain "Texas" a few times.

And I am sorry you found me too cocky, I dont even remember meeting you. I enjoy talking racing with anybody, which I did.. Maybe you were trying to talk to me while I was getting ready for our endurance and I was trying to get stuff taken care of.. I dunno, but I assure you i didnt diss you on purpose. I hung out with a couple of your people at the Claude Roulle(sp?) lecture last year. Penelope(sp?) and some other guy. I race all the time (autocross) with UT folks.

And yes, I know what a heim joint is. Considering I am not only invovled with F-SAE but also run my own business that does custom fabrication on late model Corvettes/Camaros... I get dirty probably more often than you do. I am in the shop (mine or A&Ms) or at a race track probably 60-80 hours a week.


Can't wait till next year!!! I guess if we run at the silverdome again we need to design our suspension for off-roading :-D

[Wilso]

I regret saying what I said. I was ticked off at my own team members. One of the vans left our trailer on the way back to Texas after I asked them to stay behind. We can only run about 70-75 with the gooseneck. I was talking to you just after you guys were pulled from endurance so you probably had the right to be upset. And the heim joint shot was just cheap. I'm sure you know the car insided and out but as for spending more time in the shop, thats questionable http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I was at the Seminar last year with penelope and I enjoyed talking with you.

I've got quite a few Aggie friends and they like to razz me by saying Texas University or TU. Anyway, may the rivalry continue with no hard feelings.

PS did you Ag's like the Bevo on the trailer? that was my work.

[JordonMusser]

ahhh now I remember. Ya, I wasn not in the mood to talk- sorry.

If you are talking about the magnet... that was pretty good :-D

[clif2001]

Jordon, I got a kick out of your website. Especially the Bio. I guess beer is an acquired taste.

[Marshall Grice]

Considering I am not only invovled with F-SAE but also run my own business that does custom fabrication on late model Corvettes/Camaros...

Isn't there some rule about having ringer drivers? *ahem* pro kart drivers included.

[Denny Trimble]

Well, if he's in the ME department, I don't think there's much anyone can say about being a ringer.

Carroll Smith was a pro driver before being a race engineer... it's not that uncommon.

[Hoosier Daddy]

Originally posted by Marshall Grice:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Considering I am not only invovled with F-SAE but also run my own business that does custom fabrication on late model Corvettes/Camaros...

Isn't there some rule about having ringer drivers? *ahem* pro kart drivers included. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Word is last year Oxford Brooks had a karting champ, or maybe it was F3000, as well and a Son of a former F1 driver... Too bad they blew up.

Ringers aren't that uncommon I guess.

[clif2001]

As long as drivers are students involved with the FSAE project they are not considered ringers. At least that's the way I have always understood the rule. I believe the rule was made to prevent schools from enrolling students for the minimum number of class hours just for the purpose of driving the car.

[markocosic]

Don't know about F3000, but they're certainly well represented in the British University Karting Championships!

http://www.formulabrookes.co.uk/

Hardly a 'ringer' though if they're an ME undergrad that also does karting.

Actually, whilst googling, have the rules changed or are these claims a load of bo**coks? Drive-by-wire was expressely prohibited I thought?

http://www.brookes.ac.uk/schools/technology/mechanical/formula_student/isis.htm!

[syoung]

Yeah Brookes have quick drivers, but not from F3000! The rumours are otherwise true - can't remember the name of the F1 driver's son (the man himself only did a handful of F1 races, in the 70s, I think) but he left at the end of last year.

Brookes' main driver, James Gornall, is a former British karting champion (TKM in 2001) and BARC Formula Renault champion (2003). He's also helped Brookes to win the BUKC each of the last 2 years. He's a 'business & management' undergrad. The team's other endurance driver at FSAE '05, Craig Dawson, is a PhD engineering student who works for BAR and is leading the 750MC Hot Hatch championship. Craig won skid pad this year and was team manager for both the FSAE and karting teams.

Are you involved in BUKC, Marko? Were you at the Oxbridge Varsity race last month? I'd really recommend BUKC to all the UK unis as a great way of building up driver skill and having some fun.

[markocosic]

Not a BUKC man I'm afraid - just do road-rallies in the most impractical vehicle I can lay my hands on every now and then! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ideal for conering at speed:
http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/mac65/cuac/2.jpg
Ideal for turning around on backroads when you've gone the wrong way:
http://people.pwf.cam.ac.uk/mac65/cuac/mindwarp1.jpg

Been to Whitton Mill on the college vs college days but never uni vs uni. Too expensive for me as a 'just for kicks'/D-team/'beer-boat' event and I'm not good enough to run in an A/B-team. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I'm looking to set up a 2006/7 Cambrige FSAE team and will certainly be nicking our best BUKC guys for it; but we might have to rely on having red-hot engineers rather than red-hot drivers! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

OTOH - the rules say "team members must be enrolled as degree seeking undergraduate or graduate students in a college or university." - but don't specify which univerisity. If your institution isn't doing FSAE, the car isn't ready, or you fancy a different car you can always defect to us... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[James Waltman]

The official results are up now. (http://www.sae.org/students/fsae2005results.xls)

Does anyone know the endurance breakdown by lap.

I still haven't seen the official results for award winners. This is my list from my notes at the awards banquette.
More information about the awards is available here. (http://www.sae.org/servlets/competitionSponsor?OBJECT=CompetitionSponsor&PROD_GRP_CODE=STUD&PAGE=awardListPage&OBJECT_TYPE=CompetitionSponsor&COMP_GEN_NUM=null&COMP_CODE=FSAE)

Continental Teves Best in Class Brake Systems
1. Univ of Sal Paulo
2. UIUC
3. Toronto

Henkel Technologies Structural Foam Award
Wayne State

IMechE Best Engineering Design Award
Univ Western Australia

Ricardo Powertrain Award
1. Univ Western Australia
2. Waterloo
3. Toronto

Robert Bosch Corp Engine Management System Award
1. Cornell
2. Univ Wisconsin – Madison
3. Penn State

Visteon Powertrain Cooling System Award
1. Wisconsin
2. Drexel
3. Univ Missouri Rolla

SAE Motorsports Award (for first in acceleration)
Texas A&M – 4.049 seconds

Society of Plastics Engineers' Composites Division Award
1. Univ Western Australia
2. Waterloo
3. RIT

ArvinMeritor Suspension System Award
1. U Western Australia
2. Oxford Brooks
3. U Michigan Ann Arbor


Altair Engineering's William R. Adam Engineering Award
1. Univ Western Australia
2. UC San Diego
3. Oxford Brooks

Solidworks Fastest Time to Market Skid Pad Award
1. Oxford Brooks
2. Univ Western Australia
3. Texas A&M

Bruel and Kjaer Quiet Car Cup
Drexel

Polaris Intake Systems Design Award
Univ Western Australia

Lincoln Electric Welding Award
Northern Illinois Univ
Case Western

Goodyear Best Performance Award (Enduarance)
1. Cornell
2. Univ Western Australia
3. Univ Washington

Hoosier Tire Autocross Award
1. Texas A&M
2. Cornell
3. RMIT

William C. Mitchell Rookie Award
Case Western

Yazaki North America - Presentation Award
RMIT

Yazaki North America - Cost Award
Univ Michigan Dearborn

SAE Perseverance Award (Top 5 rookie teams with highest overall points)

Texas Tech
Portland
Case Western
Binghamton
Sal Paulo

Road & Track Triathlon Award
1. Texas A&M
?. Univ Michigan
?. Cornell
?. UTA
?. Univ Wisconsin

Carroll Smith Mentor's Cup Presented by SCCA
Make McDermott – Faculty Advisor for Texas A&M

Spirit of Excellence Award
Top ten finishers

SAE Foundation Cup honoring Neil A. Schilke (presented to first place overall winner)
Cornell

Dr. Bob Woods Cup (for SCCA Nationals fastest FSAE Driver)
Erick Kohler

[Mike Shaw]

WOW! I just realized our faculty advisor got the Carrol Smith Mentor's Cup.

Congradulation McD!

Our program would be nowhere without that man. Our team is who it is, and does as well as it does, because of the passion and involvement of Dr. McDermott, the head of our ship.

It's good to see him get recognized!

[Michael Jones]

Agreed that it's good to see Dr. McDermott get the faculty advisor award.

I've talked to him off and on over the years. Most memorable was at SAE Motorsports in Indianapolis late 2002. He razzed us for denting the trophy (which we did en route to the conference, no less...oops.) He then proceeded to show us where A&M banged it up some time in 2000-1 and gave us a couple of tips on fixing it.

One hell of a character and I'm sure one hell of a faculty advisor. Good on him for being recognized as such. All winners of the Carroll Smith cup so far have been more than worthy of the honor.

James, as for your request for per-lap enduro numbers, I have a uber-sketch ballpark on most in the second run. I timed about 30 cars, five at a time, taking samples of laps based on the second hand on my watch. If I can find the pad I used and can make head or tail of the mess of numbers the above method generates, I'll pass them on.

Did have enough to have Ryerson, Washington Wisconsin and UWA in that order within 1s/lap of our time, with Washington and Ryerson potentially beating us by a shade. Pretty close to what transpired - the top five are within 8s total post-cone penalty. Very impressive.

Our first driver was about a 65.5s average, our second about a 63.5.

[Denny Trimble]

I spent some time with my camcorder, and got lap times from our car as it emerged past the timing van on the start/finish straight.

I was our first driver, averaged 65.4, had one cone, and a fast lap of 64.2 (lap 3). I also had a 67.7 that was almost a spin, I got chalk but no cones http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I was all alone, no traffic.

Mike T was our second driver, 66.8 average, 65.3 fast lap, no cones, passed two cars.

Our cumulative time from the camcorder method came within 0.3 seconds of the official time, so I'm happy enough with that.

Michael, your 1447 official time before cones works out to a 65.77 second average lap.

I don't know where the announcer got his 61.8 for Mike T, maybe he had a great "rolling lap" right where the announcer's people were timing... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Denny Trimble]

Here are some accel event videos. Please right-click and save target:

RMIT and UWA (http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/Accel-Aussies.avi)

Cornell (http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/Accel-Cornell.avi)

Texas A&M (http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/Accel-TexasAM.avi)

[Mexellent]

http://www.moretab.com/alex/FSAE/detroit05/1/0883807-R1-017-7.jpg

http://www.moretab.com/alex/FSAE/detroit05/5/0883819-R1-042-19A.jpg

http://www.moretab.com/alex/FSAE/detroit05/9/0883812-R1-011-4.jpg


And heres a zip file of the 370 pictures i took. Some of them suck and some of them are upside down. Enjoy

Detroit05 (http://www.moretab.com/alex/FSAE/detroit05.zip)

[Wray]

http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Wow! Nice pics!

[Kevin Hayward]

That pic of UTA looks fantastic.

Great work

Kev

[Didier Beaudoin]

Has anyone recorded the design review? I was in the design tent, but when the microphones stopped working, I couldn't hear anything and I'd really like to know what the judges said about the 4 cars I missed.

[markocosic]

I'd be interested in any design review/judging videos/photos/recordings too.

[James Waltman]

Well I would hate to disappoint so here you go:

MP3 of the Design Final Comments (about 20MB) (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/2005_Detroit_Design_Finals/Design%20Finals.mp3)

The sound quality isn't that great but I think you should be able to make out pretty much all of it. The UWA part is on there twice because two of my guys got it so maybe one of them is better.

I have video too but it is mostly the back of heads. You don't really miss much with just the audio. Just pull up a picture of each car as you listen and you'll be ahead of the game. I may put the video up tomorrow anyway. It's about 385MB and that would take forever to upload from home. I wish my neighbor would pay more for his internet so I could upload faster over his unsecured Wi-Fi network.

I also had a request to consolidate the pictures I had up in the galleries.

Here is a zip file of most of the pictures we took in Detroit. (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/HostedPics/ALL_2005_FSAE_PICS_BY_WWU.zip)

It is about 1350 pictures – some bad ones and a lot of repeatish ones. (I left out the pictures of IttyBitty at Big Bucks) If you want a higher resolution copy of one send me an email and I'll see what I can do.

[Didier Beaudoin]

Thanks a lot James! I don,t think a video would be very useful, a mp3 is just perfect! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[SD]

Thanks for the MP3 James!

Still waiting for a certain video...hint hint ;-)

Spencer
UBC

[Michael Jones]

Geez, James, is there anything you didn't capture for posterity? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Super impressive work as usual.

I'm going to add "ability to document the hell out of everything" to the list of things I wished Cornell would do better but doesn't.

(Mea culpa on that for myself - brand new camera for Xmas, and how many pics did I take? Two. One's of the truck, near empty. The closer I get to my PhD, the more people should do as I say, not as I do. I'm in danger of becoming a total dumbass here.)

[James Waltman]

Happy to help guys. Maybe someone can try to get some of the same for Formula Student coming up.

Spencer,
Jovan should have a link to it.

[markocosic]

Thanks James!

What you you guys think to a "Media Dump" station of sorts?

I'm thinking a few of PCs (with 400+Gb external disk drives, USB2/Firewire, CD/DVD drives and Card-Readers) and a folder for each and every team/company/group of guests in existence.

At the end of each day, or at the end of the event, somebody from each team downloads all their photographs, movie clips and sound recordings onto the 'Media Dump' computer.

Somebody then takes these computers and builds a web-gallery type affair of the pictures, with a page of thumbnails for each team folder, click to enlarge to 800x600 or so, click to enlarge to full original size, and the option for each team to 'login' afterward and caption/annotate their photographs?

Not sure how to go about sound/video previews - but even if you just got photos workign it'd be useful, no?

Would you all use it if it were there? How much storage space do you think would be required? What's security at the events like with regards to unattended computers being five finger discounted?

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

Marko, thats a good idea, I would think that either the event organizers or a specific team/ppl would have to be in charge of computers, just for orginization and security. Would be an excelent way to view designs. I dont know what the gallery capactities are on this sight but it has gone untouched for as long as I've been here.

[markocosic]

I've asked the UK organisers if they think its a good idea and if so - whether we can do it or not.

Assuming they think yes/we are allowed; we've scored a 20'x30' marquee to stop the kit getting rained on/melting in the sun and can probably bring together the relevant computer gear.

Will speak to university computing service about webspace/bandwidth for hosting it - propose using the 'gallery' software:

http://gallery.menalto.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=index

Unless there are better ones out there?

Anybody know if there's power on site or generators available? Other than setting it up/making sure there's always somebody about to look after it (I've some yuonger cousins in mind already, LOL!)/asking the organisers if they can remind everybody about it before they leave is there anything I've missed?

Using the 'gallery' software each team could manage their own gallery/caption their own photographs/add the ones they forgot to put up.

I guess (unless the copyright owner says otherwise) you limit the availability of the 'full size' images to the person who uploaded them - so you can charge that $10 for permission to get a $20 20"x30" poster print of the photo made up?

You could add a "summary" gallery of "the best of endurance", "the best of design" etc?

"Winners gallery" of the car + team + cheesy grins?

"Competitors gallery" with a photo of ech car and a photo of each team?

"Design" gallery that goes live when most teams have published their pretty 3D CAD renderings?

[syoung]

Wow, impressive idea! Unfortunately you may find yourself treading on some people's toes... last year a professional photography company had about 3 people with DSLRs at the comp and was selling 10x8" pictures at about a fiver a shot. Nothing useful if you were doing technical research, but I doubt they'd see the difference.

[markocosic]

Unfortunately you may find yourself treading on some people's toes... last year a professional photography company had about 3 people with DSLRs at the comp and was selling 10x8" pictures at about a fiver a shot.

http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Do you know if they they were paid for by FS, or did they turn up of their own accord hoping to earn some money?

If the former then FS may not let it happen. It wouldn't appear to be the case as FS don't have that many photos of previous competitions on their wepage?

If the latter then they're fair game as far as I'm concerned - an unfortunate turn of events for them, but nothing they can complain about?

Then again, the $10 affair would be to the person who took the photograph, not the people hosting them.

This can happen even now - nothing to stop one competitor who snapped another whilst they were in their car from charging a token fee for the copyright on the photo? Nothing to stop them from ordering prints of those displayed on the web either.

Displaying 'previews' on a gallery wouldn't change the situation much, other than making it easier for you to find the photo that you want and have it printed?

If the professionals are unhappy that nobody is buying their photographs they'll just have to take better ones or drop their charges - neither of which will hurt FS or the comeptitiors?

I agree it'd end up as more of a design/technical reference than a photo shop.

[StoopidSavant]

I think it's a pretty good idea, Marko. Perhaps prosective photographers can run all their images through a watermarking program to identify which images were shot by them.

I can imagine that any pros there looking to earn money might be miffed, but I say if they want to earn their keep, they had better produce better images. If you're losing business to a kid standing 20 meters away behind a fence, well, you sort of had it coming to you.

In the four days that I was at FSAE in the States, I shot 1.81GB worth of data (1,945 images at 8.2MP, ISO100 on a Canon 20D), if that's any additional indicator of what storage requirements may be needed. It was my first comp, so undoubtedly next year I would shoot more, if I can attend.

Mexellent, you have some great shots. Looks like you shot on film (am I right? How many rolls did you burn?). What kind of camera and lens were you using?

Edit: I just looked some more of your images from endurance and your vantage is almost identical to mine. You wouldn't happen to be the dude with the blue t-shirt with the Canon 100-400L and the 1-series film body, would you?

http://stoopidsavant.com/v-web/gallery/albums/fsae_endurance/IMG_0065.jpg

http://stoopidsavant.com/v-web/gallery/albums/fsae_acceleration/IMG_9415.jpg

http://stoopidsavant.com/v-web/gallery/albums/fsae_endurance/IMG_0030.jpg

http://stoopidsavant.com/v-web/gallery/albums/fsae_endurance/IMG_0050.jpg

[James Waltman]

The official list of awards winners is up now. (http://students.sae.org/competitions/formulaseries/fsae/results/2005awards.htm)

[Mexellent]

Thanks savant. Your shots are pretty good as well.

I wasnt the big dude in the blue shirt, i was the dude next to him.

I was using a Nikon N80 with a nikon ED 70-300mm lense. I shot 16 rolls. For some reason my camera kept screwing up and it would display an error message with the little DX symbol flashing. There were times when i had to rewind the film without finishing the roll.

I was pissed. AND THEN DEVELOPING COSTS! That was my fault cause i took em to walgreens, but still! I really wish i had an DSLR.

[StoopidSavant]

I hear ya man. Cost of development (I would just pay to develop the film and not get prints, which made it a more manageable $2/roll) sucked, but then the worst part was scanning all the damn negatives. I slaved through film for two years before blowing away a load of dough on a 20D. Seven months later, I'm still paying for it...