FSAE Project Management

[AmandaG]

Hi all,

I am currently undertaking my undergrad thesis on Project Management in FSAE. What I am working on is a framework from which teams can improve their management. I hope to make this available to all teams so that everyone can benefit from my research.

As part of this I need to identify the issues concerning teams worldwide and get a feel for the management tools currently being used. <STRIKE>Below is a link to a quick survey, if you could please take a few minutes to fill it out it would be much appreciated.</STRIKE>

This survey is now closed, Thank you to all that participated.

Cheers,
Amanda

[AmandaG]

Hi all,

I am currently undertaking my undergrad thesis on Project Management in FSAE. What I am working on is a framework from which teams can improve their management. I hope to make this available to all teams so that everyone can benefit from my research.

As part of this I need to identify the issues concerning teams worldwide and get a feel for the management tools currently being used. <STRIKE>Below is a link to a quick survey, if you could please take a few minutes to fill it out it would be much appreciated.</STRIKE>

This survey is now closed, Thank you to all that participated.

Cheers,
Amanda

[exFSAE]

I did your survey, but I'll add the following comments here (where its easy to see).

Accountability was our #1 issue when I was a co-captain in 2007 (and in 2005 and 2006 when I was also on the team). The captains never really had any authority or ability to do anything. Our faculty advisor was pretty hands off and mostly took care of university red tape for us, but attended weekly meetings where the team would verbally tell their progress. Real easy to bullshit progress like that. At the end of each semester we had "peer evaluations" where we rated each other's performance, but (a) by the time that rolled around it was well past deadlines that needed to be enforced, and (b) for first semester no one got less than a C-, so they could enroll in Senior Design II (even though 1 or 2 people should have had a D or failing grade).

Our year was the first time the co-captains sat down with every senior at the beginning of the year and back-tracked what design and fabrication schedules would have to be. We were very generous with time for mistakes, skiing, etc, but despite this people would wind up weeks or months behind schedule and there was nothing we could do about it.

There's a very fine line on what kind of personality and attitude works for the lead of the program. On one hand, being everyone's friend will not work. People think they can get lax, and there's always a time for tough love. You do have to have everyone's respect though. I didn't mind when our '05 and '06 captains were dicks and got all stressed out, I respected them for what they knew and what they were doing and kept coming in because of it. Don't know if that held true with me, I didn't mind if people thought I was an asshole (which is definitely true sometimes) so long as they understood where I was coming from and what I was asking. I never asked any more of anyone than I would put in myself.

The biggest thing is that the captains/leaders cannot do it all themselves. Unfortunately for many years in our program.. the only person(s) that really knew how critical the pace needed to be and what people needed to be doing, were the ones who had been around for a couple years. They also happened to be the ones that could weld, and/or machine, and/or drive, and/or write reports. You get roped into way too much, and something's gotta give. I really regret not having managed people better, but I had a lot to do and expected people to have some competence and be independent. As it turns out, there's generally a lot of hand-holding required unless you find those awesome folks who take it on themselves do actually do their best.

On a related note, the structure we had of a "team captain" or co-captains, and a bunch of workers.. was terrible. I highly recommend throwing it out the window. Our 2008 team did just that, and put in a system with a Project Manager, Manufacturing Engineer, Finance/Sponsor Supervisor, a few Systems Engineers, Technical Lead, and the rest. Job roles were clearly defined, and the new faculty advisors held people to them. Much better system.

Just my 2 cents. Was one of the things I fucked up most so I figured its worth commenting on http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Drew Price]

All that being said, for those of us who do this on a purely extra-curricular basis, that sort of attitude towards questionably dedicated team members is exactly what gets them to stop coming back. We always strive to get the dedicated ones, but that doesn't always work out.

You can't treat volunteers like they are in danger of losing their job. It's much easier for us to dangle a carrot, than to wave a stick. Go drive the old car. Go watch 'Gone in 60 Seconds' together. Go attend an Atlantic, or ALMS, or drag race. Like I said in an earlier thread, most of our members did not start out as 'car' people.

If things are drastically (months) behind schedule, maybe some re-evaluation of the proposed goals is in order. If your members aren't capable of completing what you are going for, one or the other needs to change.

It's hard to change out team members.

Best,
Drew

[exFSAE]

I should add, all of the above was geared toward seniors, ie the folks doing it for a grade.

Big step up in responsibility and having to actually hit deadlines, etc. But when there's no repercussion for writing garbage reports, or not doing work...

The workload really isn't that bad if people just put in 15-20 hours a week of actual effort. It's when folks put in 5 hours a week (for a 4 credit class), thinking their little deadlines aren't important, that stuff starts goin bad.. then the little deadlines all start piling up as missed, and everyone else has to make up for it.

[Mechanicaldan]

If the FSAE.com Forums were organized into a book, it would do wonders for students.

How many FSAE Alumni does it take to collaborate on writing and publishing a "Guide to FSAE" book?

This quote should define the book:
"A brilliant design that is not finished on time is useless. A simple design that has been properly developed is a better exercise in engineering.
--carroll smith"

Ha! Look what I just found: "How to Build Motorcycle-engined Racing Cars" Publisher link: http://www.veloce.co.uk/shop/products/productDetail.php...ac1efe07b1708cca2184 (http://www.veloce.co.uk/shop/products/productDetail.php?prod_id=v4123&prod_group=Cars%20Vans%20&%20Trucks&PHPSESSID=be3f25934cbfac1efe07b1708cca2184)

[Drew Price]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The workload really isn't that bad if people just put in 15-20 hours a week of actual effort. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just 15-20 hours per week?!?! I know I have no problem putting in that much time, and several other of the key players, but like I said, that kind of dedication and time commitment is the exception, not the rule (for those of us not submitting supervised work for credit). Different situation.

Of course, it's different everywhere. I certainly don't want to assert that the courseload we see on the quarter system is any more or less difficult than anyone else's, but I have seen a number of unis where there is a large difference. It's hard to get new people even around 5 hours per week for us. Look at how Alex Kwan and Stanford faired. For some of us there just isn't that much time available for everyone, which is where my observations were coming from.

My personal feelings have begun to come to grips with the fact that the amount of coursework certainly does not reflect the level of the education you get from it. I'm sure many of you feel the same way. At least for our team the key people are some of the top mechanical designers in our undergrad department anyways.

End of rant. Back to the shop.

Best,
Drew

[JD232]

15-20 hrs/week??

Are you kidding me?

I haven't slept over 5 hours (except for five days when I got sick, n for two days after we succefully launched our car) for one year now, giving 10-15 hours per day to college and the project combined... and the division of labor is tilted towards FSAE...

Its sad we dont have grades for FSAE project, http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[exFSAE]

Yes, only 15-20 hours a week is what I would expect for FSAE senior design (we do get grades for the project).

For us, one semester was 3 credits, one was 4 (I forget which is which).

15-20 hours is what, about 2-3 hours a day in the shop? That's not much. I vaguely recall in some freshman orientation when I was entering engineering school, that there was something like 3 or 4 hours of work per week expected/required per credit hour (in addition to lecture time, for which there really isn't any in FSAE). FSAE is obviously a little more intense than most classes, but that gets it in the ballpark.

For underclassmen / volunteers.. put in as many hours as you please. It's all appreciated. 1 hour a week, 5, 20, whatever.

There's a LOT of work, and it has to be done. The end goal is "build racecar" which cannot be adjusted once you're committed. It's when the core/senior group slacks on their 15-20 hr a week, that other folks have to pick up the slack. This is why I was generally working 60 hours a week on the car (maybe 2 hours during the day between class, then 6pm-midnight.. then at least two 10 hour days over the weekend), and at times up to 70 or more.

Like I said, the work is there and needs to be done. So when a core guy with responsibilities slacks off, they are fucking someone else over, hard, because they have to pick up the slack.

I think Silverback may be experiencing some of this http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Been there, done that man.. many times.

It's hard to say ahead of time which people will be the workers and which will be the flakes, when it comes to seniors. For us we had some guys who had been on the team before who knew what it took, and put in a lot of work. There were others that had been around a while as volunteers, but could not take the step up in responsibility. My theory was that they had gotten too used to just coming by and helping out here and there, and when it came to upped responsibilities and expectations having to actually do work took out some of the fun factor and turned em away.

We had guys that were completely new to the team, and treated it as a serious class, were really into it, and put in as many hours as anyone else. Had fun too. God bless em.

And then we had one new senior who vanished off the face of the planet for 6 months and failed all his classes for two semesters.

[exFSAE]

And yes, I would agree there is a wide range of correlation between coursework and lecture hours, and education gained. Starting sophomore year and increasing as time went on I skipped out on a ton of lecture.

I could either go to lecture and in the course of an hour or hour and a half learn nothing new, while the professor went over how to take the damn mean or standard deviation of a data set.. or any number of things.. at the end of which I would literally be on the verge of sleep.. OR I could go down to the shop, grab a red bull, put the AC/DC on, fire up the CNC and make some parts.

The latter option often won! GPA dropped from a 3.6 sophomore year to a 3.3 senior year, but it was way, way, way worth it in terms of practical education gained. Apparently my current employers agreed when they hired me...

Likewise there were classes where HW was optional and your grade could be entirely exams.. which I always chose.. and freed up a ton of time doing what otherwise would have been pointless work. The graphic method of vector addition? No thanks..

[Drew Price]

I completely agree with what you are saying.

It's a different ball game when the whole team is 'volunteers' who are not getting any credit. 5-6 of us put in the same 60 hour FSAE work weeks on top of school that all of you do, all I was saying was that to demand anything resembling that level of involvement from a new or inexperienced person got them to leave our team. That's one of the reasons that there were only 6 of us at comp in Michigan this year. That's because the team had 6 members.

Plus my girlfriend Kirsten. She's more dedicated than many of our 'Engine' team guys from last year were, if only in spirit.

Best,
Drew

[JD232]

Well... nice to know people who put in 60 hrs a week,

I was beginning to think we must be terrible if our work moves so slowly...
same 5-6 people giving 50-60 hours a week...

We are based in India, which means we travel abroad for the competition, which is basically a great incentive for the people who get to go. This time we have more money than people who really deserve to go!!

[Type Q]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mechanicaldan:
If the FSAE.com Forums were organized into a book, it would do wonders for students.

How many FSAE Alumni does it take to collaborate on writing and publishing a "Guide to FSAE" book?

This quote should define the book:
"A brilliant design that is not finished on time is useless. A simple design that has been properly developed is a better exercise in engineering.
--carroll smith" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many years ago I took a stab at writing paper a lot of the key things I learned during my tenure in FSAE. Its a more time consuming than you realize. Getting the basic ideas down, figuring out a logical order, filling in enough metaphors and stories to get our point across and final editing and proofreading done is a fair amount of effort to squeeze into your non work life.

It looks like it's still on the SAE website.

http://students.sae.org/competitions/formulaseries/fsae...erence/orgteam01.htm (http://students.sae.org/competitions/formulaseries/fsae/reference/orgteam01.htm)

It comes up short in project management content. I know it's out of date in a lot of areas as well. After 10 years in Silicon Valley, I have learned a few more things about how to get things done. If other alumni want to collaborate on a new project manual, I'd be happy to contribute.

[Drew Price]

Glad to see you're still around Alan! Your article is part of the required reading for our new / prospective team members, placed in the list right after the rules, and right before the 'To Win' series. Thanks for that, we found it extremely helpful starting our team up over the past 2 years.

Best,
Drew

[Type Q]

I am glad that people are still finding that paper useful.

I lurk on this site from time to time to see what's new. My attention recently got refocused on FSAE because I was in Southern California last year visiting my sister. It dawned on my that it was FSAE West weekend and I was only 20 minutes away from Fontana. I went over, watched some of the endurance event and ran into my faculty advisor. I was just in awe of how far forward you all have taken the competition.

I'll jump in once in a while if I think I can add something to the conversation.

[CSUNFormulaOne]

I started off managing the team by being an A-hole 3 of our crew chiefs quit, one volunteer and one team member.
I softened up on everyone and not one person is meeting their goals or showing a structured outline.

I guess it's time to go back to being an A-hole.

[RiNaZ]

CSUN, you probably dont have your objectives clear enough for the team members to see. Or just maybe, your goals are probably not in line with the rest of the team members.

Sometimes, the goal and objective is clear, but the attitude gets in the way. Most ppl are that way, you can tell them something, but if your attitude is showing that you are dictating rather than suggesting, it's hard for them to go along with your idea.

Always treat ppl the way you wanna be treated. You dont have to be an asshole to get your msg across, FSAE or real life isnt one of those reality show. I think exFSAE said it best " ... I never asked any more of anyone than I would put in myself ..."

[oz_olly]

I am not sure whether you guys have seen this list before but you would be suprised how well these principles work. They are used by military academies all over the world. I believe a good manager is also a good leader. You can be a manager without being a leader and vice versa but the best result is when you effectively combine both.

1. Be tactically and technically proficient (you need to know what you are talking about)
2. Know yourself and seek self-improvement (no one is perfect)
3. Know your soldiers and look out for their welfare (know when your guys are struggling with academics/ personal issues and let them take time away, help them if you can)
4. Keep your soldiers informed (working towards a commonly understood goal)
5. Set the example (as said above ask of your team members what you would do yourself)
6. Ensure the task is understood, supervised and accomplished (it is important to apply the right amount to each person, reason you need to know them)
7. Train your soldiers as a team (if you don't develop the team it will fall apart when you leave, and will never get better)
8. Make sound and timely decisions (enough said)
9. Develop a sense of responsibility in your subordinates (when people own a task they will go to great lengths to make it happen)
10. Employ your unit in accordance with its capabilities (don't try to build something above your team's abilities and resources)
11. Seek responsibility and take responsibility for your actions (if you're in charge you've already taken on a huge amount of responsibility, but you need to honour it and stand by your decisions)

I hope these principles will be of benefit if you haven't seen them before. Leading a FSAE team is very difficult especially if all your team members are volunteers. You need to understand their motivation to be on the team and foster it. You can't win everybody over but establishing a strong sense of belonging within the team is essential as people will be more inclined to give their all when things get tough as they own a part of the problem.

Cheers

Olly

ACME Racing
UNSW@ADFA

[JR @ CFS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oz_olly:
1. Be tactically and technically proficient (you need to know what you are talking about)
2. Know yourself and seek self-improvement (no one is perfect)
3. Know your soldiers and look out for their welfare (know when your guys are struggling with academics/ personal issues and let them take time away, help them if you can)
4. Keep your soldiers informed (working towards a commonly understood goal)
5. Set the example (as said above ask of your team members what you would do yourself)
6. Ensure the task is understood, supervised and accomplished (it is important to apply the right amount to each person, reason you need to know them)
7. Train your soldiers as a team (if you don't develop the team it will fall apart when you leave, and will never get better)
8. Make sound and timely decisions (enough said)
9. Develop a sense of responsibility in your subordinates (when people own a task they will go to great lengths to make it happen)
10. Employ your unit in accordance with its capabilities (don't try to build something above your team's abilities and resources)
11. Seek responsibility and take responsibility for your actions (if you're in charge you've already taken on a huge amount of responsibility, but you need to honour it and stand by your decisions) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that's perfect. Succintly says what I've been thinking!

[AmandaG]

Wow what a response, the survey has been up for a week and I have got 81 responses so far plus got everyone talking about Project Management, it is good to see an interest in this.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Type Q:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mechanicaldan:
If the FSAE.com Forums were organized into a book, it would do wonders for students.

How many FSAE Alumni does it take to collaborate on writing and publishing a "Guide to FSAE" book?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
If other alumni want to collaborate on a new project manual, I'd be happy to contribute. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To Alan and any other team leaders/Alumni out there I would be very interested in co-ordinating an FSAE Project Management collaboration paper, it would be a collection of your ideas/anecdotes/advice, something that could go up on the FSAE websites for all teams to use. I think something like this could be a very useful resource for teams worldwide and would be something that could be updated and renewed with time.

What do you all think? If there is enough interest I might draw up a draft outline and call for contributions.

Amanda

[Type Q]

Again I am happy to contribute. I think a lot of what would be most useful to teams already exists in one form or another. It would be interesting to see if an organization like PMI (Project Managment Institute, www.pmi.org) (http://www.pmi.org)) has materials on fundementals of project management that could be used as a foundation with alumni contributing FSAE specific contect.

[ben]

Just filled it out and realised how completely f'ing inadequate we were :-) Essentially our team was 5 core guys and a load of people who found us completely unapproachable!

That moment you step back and realise how much you didn't know even as a final year FSAE team member is quite amazing.

I think my response to "Do you have a Gantt chart?" in 2003 would have been "No - obviously. Does a Gantt chart make the car go faster?" Hopefully I've matured a little :-)

Great project Amanda - looking forward to the results.

Ben

[AmandaG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ben:

Does a Gantt chart make the car go faster?"

Ben </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL Thanks Ben, I think this is the problem with most teams, you really don't see how ineffective your being until you take a good step back and study yourself. The first thing I did for this project was do a critical review of the teams past, as the 06 team leader it was interesting (and difficult) to see what I did wrong http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Alan - yes I completely agree with you, I have alot of information from PMI and other sources on how we should do everything, but getting FSAE specific views on this from a variety of sources will help to reinforce that this is not just mumbo jumbo designed to annoy people and to make it relevant and interesting to current FSAE'ers

BTW: I will be closing the survey at 5pm 24/8 Australian Eastern Standard Time, which is 3am 24/8 on this forum (I think).

Amanda

[mjdavidson]

I also filled out the survey.

You guys are definitely not alone. For the past two years I have spent 60+ hours per week in the shop, and usually had 1 or 2 people that would do that with me. I also had 1 or 2 people that were just as dedicated and serious about it, but had jobs, family, etc. that took up much of their time. So on average we had 4-5 core guys and 2-3 guys who could help out.

That is a pretty big contrast to the turnouts we have for the first week of fall semester. Usually our first meeting is 25-35 people. We spend weeks or maybe a month talking about organization (inevitably the organization/structure/schedule of the previous year didn't work or didn't exist). I think that our drop-out rate is due primarily to the incompetency of new team members and the lack of quality management. New team members are incompetent if they come in with no prior experience. There are not any classes that teach students to be competent mechanical designers. They become lost and frustrated and are over their head, they become embarrassed and quit. Maybe we need to find ways to train people ourselves, and have better resources at their disposal.

One person can't do it all, and I am far more enthusiastic about designing race cars than I am about management.

[dkl]

One thing I'd like to add to oz_olly's list is that project managers should always be a few steps ahead of those they are directing. Ideally, one should always have an answer for anyone in their group to the question, "What do I do next?" I feel that this sense of direction and forethought, along with the ability to push team members while maintaining a positive and respectful relationship, are the two hardest but most important things for someone in a managerial position.

[AmandaG]

Hey guys,

Just thought I would give you some stats from the survey, I had 100 responses in 9 days.

Of those teams surveyed:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>The average team size was 15-19 members
<LI>With an average of 5-9 core members.
<LI>On average teams consisted of 4-8 new members, 4-8 2nd year members, &lt;3 3rd yr members and &lt;3 4th year members and no 5th or higher year members.
<LI>Issues in FSAE ranging from most difficult to least were: time management, knowledge loss, procrastination, accountability, managing members, gaining sponsorship, university bureaucracy, retaining members, internal conflicts, integrating design, and attracting new members.

<LI>72% of teams are completely run by students
<LI>46% are run democratically
<LI>61% have formal structure and clear chain of command
<LI>31% have regular social activities
<LI>39% are in regular contact with alumni
<LI>No teams answered strongly agree to having understudies/2IC's for section heads, 20% answered agree
<LI>82% of teams section heads don't provide regular written reports on progress
<LI>52% of teams section heads provide regular oral reports on progress
<LI>45% of teams have a detailed schedule
<LI>26% of teams adhere to a schedule and track progress throughout the year.

<LI>27% have member selection criteria
<LI>31% interview new members
<LI>16% have new member information booklet
<LI>56% have new member inductions/training
<LI>68% do tools training
<LI>36% do design training
<LI>38% have role descriptions for management positions
<LI>11% have handover booklets for management positions
<LI>34% have succession plans
<LI>18% do member performance reviews
<LI>58% have a Gantt chart
<LI>44% have a Work Brakedown Structure (WBS)
<LI>33% have a team forum
<LI>10% have a team wiki
<LI>88% have a team email group
<LI>78% have a file share
<LI>31% have design guidelines or manuals
<LI>10% have an asset register
<LI>Of those who do have the above, the majority of teams use these tools either never or occasionally, other than email groups and file shares both of which 50% of teams use regularly.
<LI>Most teams indicated if these tools were available they were either inadequate or could improve.[/list]
I want to give a big thank you to everyone who participated in this survey and especially to those who gave some fantastic comments.

[GSXR05K]

Amanda, I'm impressed and very interested in your work. I think it will help many teams. I've PM'd you, if you could please respond.

Aaron

[Dick Golembiewski]

As the author of:

http://students.sae.org/competitions/managingprojects.pdf

I'd be interested in what you come up with.

- Dick

[Nick T.]

Concerning Project/ Quality/ Knowledge Management in Formula Student teams:

http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/t...?r=96410936#96410936 (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/96410936?r=96410936#96410936)

Nick

[oz_olly]

So does anyone know if Amanda ever put all of this research together? I would bev very interested to read what she came up with.

On the collaboration of FSAE alumni on a team management/ project management document, I think it would be a great idea. This is a topic that would probably suit a Wiki or something like that more than the purely technical stuff.

Cheers

Olly
ACME Racing
UNSW@ADFA