Anyone paid to have their spaceframe manufactured for them?How much?

[Pauly]

Due to time constraints, etc we are thinking of getting our spaceframe built for us but are unsure of the cost. We are in the uk and are looking for ball park figures- any ideas?

[Pauly]

Due to time constraints, etc we are thinking of getting our spaceframe built for us but are unsure of the cost. We are in the uk and are looking for ball park figures- any ideas?

[ben]

It's September, you have approximately 9 months until Formula Student surely you can get a spaceframe built by then without outsourcing? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Ben

[jack]

Technically, I think that is illegal...

[Captain Redbeard]

Why would outsourcing your frame be illegal if you still design it? We've been doing it since we started (11 years ago.) We usually only have one guy that knows how to weld and it wouldn't be fair to ask him to do the whole frame. Besides, if we design the frame in early summer, then we have it waiting for us when classes start. We get most of our team from a two term design class (read all newbies) and it is much easier for them to design their components if they have a frame to work off of.
To answer the original question, we usually pay around $300 for the stock then pay the local speed shop $3500 to make it for us.

[Travis Garrison]

Depending on how you read rule 2.3.1 it may or may not be illegal. I'm sure paying someone is easier, but if you ask me it's in violation of the intent...and doesn't make those of us that work our tails off very happy...

Not to mention you won't learn as much...

[Captain Redbeard]

I guess you are probably right, however, not many teams fabricate every component on their car. In fact, there are many components that teams simply buy outright. For example, most teams don't make their own wheels, diffs, engines, steering wheels, racks, etc.. Isn't designing a frame and having it built more in line with the spirit of the competition than simply buying something that's been designed by someone else? Of course we don't build everything else from scratch either but I don't understand how the distinction is made. Besides, we always end up changing the frame anyway so its not like we don't know how to do it.

Also, just as a last line of deffense, we don't start classes till this wednesday, so most other teams get a whole months head start on us.

I can understand how most teams would be angry about this but we get a brand new team every year (accept for the captains) so it makes our task a little less daunting to have the frame taken care off while we try to bring the team up to speed.

-Redbeard

[Storbeck]

I don't see how it would be any different from having cnc machining outsourced, or buying the many components that teams do. As long as they design it.

It's also more realistic from a "real world" point of view. As practicing engineers we will not be doing much manufacturing ourselves, we will be designing things and having other people build them.

my $.02

[DaveC]

I certainly dont see any problem outsourcing some fab jobs. If you got more $ than time, its not a bad option. There are some valuable skills to be learned doing the tube work yourself, but mainly it is a craftsmans job, not an engineering job (building it, not designing it). One think about the welding, you can have an inexperienced person perform the prep and tack weld it together, then an experienced welder could follow up and complete the welds in a relatively short amount of time. Prep and tack welds dont need too much experience.

[Gavin]

"Vehicles entered into Formula SAE competitions must be conceived, designed,
and fabricated by the students without direct involvement from professional
engineers, automotive engineers, racers, machinists or related professionals."

"Therefore, students should perform all fabrication tasks whereever possible."

The first thing I don't understand is that we only have around 10,000 in cash each year, so for us, spending 35% of our budget on having a pro do something that we could do, seems crazy. Also, welding the frame is different than CNC, because its something that requires a lot less equipment. Often CNC is outsourced, at least in our case, because of a lack of on campus CNC time. The last thing is that this is meant to make us better engineers. A great way to do that is to manufacture it yourself. The process just gives you much more of an understanding of your design and how to improve it from a manufacturing stand point. I guess I just don't get it...

[Travis Garrison]

We don't outsource CNC either http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The difference as I see it is that you should do everything you're cabable of...push yourself. If you don't have a CNC machine obviously you'll have to outsource, but if you have it you should be using it. The same goes for welding. If you have a welder and you're doing a spaceframe then having someone else build your frame is outside the intent of the rules.

In response to the reasons for outsourcing a frame...
a. lots of teams haven't started school yet (you'll be a week ahead of us)
b. MANY teams loose most of their members each year
c. not very many teams have the $$ to buy their frame...so I see it as kind of throwing $$ at the comp rather than really working at it. Not exactly fair to the less well off teams.

[Rob.C]

which uk uni are you from? maybe you should try and get to a uni near you that does student and find out what facilities and equipment they use possibly asking them about certain things as advice?

i know that we had the guys from newcastle come and have a look round our lab a couple of times in their first year.

i dont see how getting a chassis outsourced is any easier than doing it yourself! surely its easier to get it done in house and will cost a heck of a lot less (im intrequed, how do your dartmouth guys put your chassis into the cost report?)

[Captain Redbeard]

Travis, you make valid points and I admire that your team spends the time to do all your own work. I do also think that the norm for FSAE teams is to outsource jobs when it is beneficial to do so (from a man hours versus money aspect.) I don't think it is fair to say "if you have a welder then you have to do your whole frame." There is a very fine line between pushing yourself and trying to do too much. Part of managing an engineering team like an FSAE team is knowing how to balance your resources and that involves knowing when to make something from scratch and when to just buy something. Every team makes these tradeoffs. Some choose to have their frames manufactured for them. Some don't. I think the phrase in the rules that states we should make things "whenever possible" implies this idea. We have always wanted to make our own frame but in the end it just turns out to be too much for the 2-3 captains to do this while also trying to direct and manage the rest of the team. I know there are probably a few other teams out there who have very high turnover every year, but imagine having all the knowledge from year to year being transfered by only one to three individuals. It is difficult to have those people then also build a frame. Maybe we are just lazy but I know I am at school 16-18 hours a day 7 days a week so it is a little offense for you to imply that we don't work hard.

Gavin, much of what I said above applies to your comments as well. We have a significantly larger budget than your team so it makes more sense for us to outsource the frame manufacturing. As I mentioned before, we do usually end up changing the frame so we gain experience in the manufacturing process in that sense (last year we lopped the whole front off and remade it.) I also work closely with the guy who builds it so as to understand how to make it easier for him from year to year. I know how to notch, bend, tack, and make a jig so I'm not sure how spending the first month of the year building the frame would be more beneficial than doing design work and mentoring the other team members. I bet if your team put half the effort you do buiding the frame into fundraising you could make enough to cover the frame and also have enough to consider new ideas and designs for the rest of the car that weren't possible with your previous budget. Just a thought

Again, I understand why people would be upset, but I just feel that for the amount of work it takes relative to the amount you learn, it is more beneficial for our team to have it taken care of. If I had a team of 6-10 dedicated and moderately experienced people or a dedicated chassis guy I'm sure I would sing a different tune. I mean, $3500 is a lot no matter what your budget.

[Travis Garrison]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Captain Redbeard:
Some choose to have their frames manufactured for them. Some don't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's an interesting point...I've always assumed everyone builds their own frame...who else hires someone to do this for them?

On the fundraising front...just remember that fundraising is much more difficult for the less recognizable/established schools, so not everyone has much of a choice, they simply don't have the $$ to buy a frame.

[Captain Redbeard]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Travis Garrison:
That's an interesting point...I've always assumed everyone builds their own frame...who else hires someone to do this for them? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure, it was totally an assumption. I always just assumed some teams had theirs made. Anybody else have any knowledge of this?

The fundraising point is a good one. I think we benefit more from having very good alumni relations than because we are a more recognizable/established school though. We get 95% of our monetary donations from alumni.

I'd be interested to hear from more people on the frame building issue. I never really thought much of it before and I suppose if there were a very large consensus against it I would consider adding it in my suggestions for next years team.

Rob, we cost it like everything else, we put the materials in and then put in how many hours it would take to build and cost out the price for a welder and the price per foot of linear weld. We actually got called out for it this year because we only had the price per foot of weld and not the additional hourly wage for the welder. We just didn't know. It was corrected at comp.

-Redbeard

[mtg]

Having your frame outsourced is ridiculous. Fabricating the car is every bit as big a part of the project as designing, if not more important. When you actually make the thing, you realize all the millions of details that have to be correct for it to turn out with any quality.

Engineers that do not know how to manufacture things are worthless compared to ones that have a strong knowledge of how the parts they designed are going to be made. A design is only an idea until it can be produced. Try going to a car company and say "I don't need to know about manufacturing, I'm an engineer". Then clean up your desk and head for the door.


Only having one guy that knows how to weld is not an excuse. At UMR, we usually only had two people that welded the whole chassis (and I don't think its changed for this year). A few years ago (~2002) we only had one guy weld the whole thing. I've been one of the welders for the 2004 and 2005 chassis's. I never touched a welder before joining the FSAE team, but we needed more welders when I was a sophomore. I asked a senior member that was a pretty good welder to give me a quick lesson, then practiced, and there you go.

[Kurt Bilinski]

As an outsider, my take on this is having the frame built outside should violate the intent of the competition if not the literal rules. I was under the impression the *team* built the car. Granted if the school can't afford a CNC mill, then it's reasonable to send it out (though lots of cars were build and designed before CNC...) I built my uprights myself using a manual non-digital readout lathe so it can be done, but I digress. But to outsource chassis fabrication... It's not like the school doesn't have a welder or someone who knows how to use it. Doing the chassis yourselves educates the *team* in far more ways then simply outsourcing it. Heat distortion, heat treating, powdercoating issues, you won't learn any of that.

I don't know... it kinda reminds me of paying someone to do your homework for you... IMHO, writing a check isn't the way to learn something.

[Charlie]

I understand the rationale of outsourcing the frame, I guess, but I have a hard time looking at it any other way than just laziness, or having too much extra cash. I'm sure that's not the whole story but I can't honestly say I can understand anyone doing it.

I support our team since I've left but if I found they were doing something like this I'd send my money elsewhere. Frame work is a skill, sure, but 99% grunt work. I've been in the team captain shirt and I always needed more money, even though towards the end we were pretty well established, I'd love to buy sensors, etc. Not spend money on freshman work (minus the welding and supervison).

We had one guy do the welding too... about 3 years in a row! As he also did many other duties. It wasn't easy, but it's not supposed to be!

If you have a welding machine, and the ability, but shell out cash to get it done easier and faster, that's just a shame. Trying to be as nice as possible but wow, I can't beleive teams do that!

I felt bad for outsourcing stuff on our car. We had no CNC on campus at our disposal so we had to outsource, often times our guys would go work with the sponsoring company after hours so it wasn't 100% pay and get, but still. If we had the machinery we'd have done it. After one year where we machined our own diff housing and splined our own axles on a manual mill (just a digital readout), those hours got outsourced. But it was because we just didn't have an efficient way of getting it done. Adn each year we pleaded for a usable CNC.

[Charlie]

I also have a hard time with your interpretation of the rules. Is it possible for you to build your frame? by your own admission, yes.

The rules state 'whenever possible.' I can't see how you can step around that. It's not 'whenever it's most efficient' or 'whenever it doesn't get in the way of the rest of the car.'

Not trying to be an ass, honestly. I just feel like when a 'speed shop' builds the whole frame, it ceases to be a student built car. I know some parts are a grey area, but not the frame!

[VFR750R]

Coming from a team where every team member was expected to miter at least one tube for the car(yes engine guys too), i have a issue with this.

My exception would be if the entire car was mitered and tacked and then a pro was hired to do the welding. If you don't have a good enough guy to do the job on the team, it's not worth ruining the car's frame to do it yourself, both in performance and safety.

But pros aren't required to miter and tack. This will also guarentee any design issues with the frame can be discovered before final welding. You don't want to get a 3500 frame you can't use cause you can't get your engine in the frame.

[Frank]

out of interest...

how would you feel about building your carbon mono?

[Travis Garrison]

Carbon work is good for you, I'd apply the same criteria to it...do whatever you can, and anyone can do a layup...

[jack]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...Doing the chassis yourselves educates the *team* in far more ways then simply outsourcing it. Heat distortion, heat treating, powdercoating issues, you won't learn any of that.

...IMHO, writing a check isn't the way to learn something. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i was basically going to say the same thing. we have done lots of things the "hard" way at WWU (making our own...everything). doing this probably didnt get us to far in competition, but the team members learned so much more than if they just picked some parts out of a catalog.

by the way, as far as unskilled labor goes, a monocoque is probably easier to build than a tube frame.

[Captain Redbeard]

huh, many good points. I guess I am a bit surprised. Being relatively new to FSAE I simply assumed that the way we had always done things was OK. To be honest I personally never considered building the frame this year. I designed it and shipped it off to the guy who does it every year. We do check in at normal intervals to make sure things fit and I built all the jigs for suspension and engine mounts. I think it probably stems from the way our team is structured. We have 2-3 captains that carry over from the previous year and then we have teams of three people each that work on other aspects of the car for course credit over two terms (up until spring break.) No other people stay on the team because they all graduate (the design course is a senior level course.) Our teams are separated into engine, suspension, vehicle dynamics, and so forth but it is very hard to have a chassis team because it needs to be desiged and done before everything else. It is also hard to tell a person only working on the car for a grade that they have to help build the frame. As far as the graders and school is concered, they are only responsible for their part of the car.

I've always viewed the frame as being a small part of the design and manufacturing process. Obvously we design for a specific rigidity and strength and the suspension geometry is figured out before hand, but I never understood how much emphasis you seem to be putting on the manufacturing process. We do all our own CNC, composite, and general manufacturing work (except for the frame) so for us it always seems like the frame is just the very start. Perhaps we have been taking it for granted. However, Charlie admited that frame work is 99% grunt work so why are people so down on our team for outsourcing it? Why not outsource the frame and spend the rest of the time doing real engineering work? Is it some sort of right of passage? I am pretty sure this competition is about how well you can build a race car, not wether or not you can cut some tubes. It seems like people are equating the frame to the entire car. As far as I can tell, actually building the frame is about 0.5% of all the many compenents needed to build a competetive FSAE car.

I'm not sure why you think we won't learn heat distortion, heat treating and powder coating issues. We weld, heat treat, and powder coat all our suspension parts so I think most of that knowledge can be gained there.

Also, I wonder if you all might feel differently if there were a commercial frame available that teams could buy to use as a base for their car. For instance, if everyone built their own differentials, and a few teams decided to have theirs outsourced, I bet they would meet a similar response. I am pretty sure there can be no strong argument against us using the rules, because if we were all truly honest with ourselves I'm sure there are at least ten components on our cars that could have been built in house but were outsourced or bought. I mean, some teams build V8s, shouldn't we all be doing that? The engine is just as important as the frame is it not?

I'm glad Frank brought up the composite chassis point, I was asking myself the same question. I guess I would have to say that it would be a bit different. Here is how I would break it down:

1. Design of chassis - strictly students
2. CNC plugs - can be outsourced
3. Prepare plug surfaces - students
4. Layup mold - students
5. Prepreg layup - students (a lot of design here, orentation of layers and so on)
6. Autoclave - outsource

I would have to disagree with Jack though, I feel that a carbon mono might take less time than a tube frame, but the manufacturing knowledge needed is much greater.

[jack]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I would have to disagree with Jack though, I feel that a carbon mono might take less time than a tube frame, but the manufacturing knowledge needed is much greater. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i dont think i came across right. a tub requires many, many hours to build (i dont know how long compaired to a tube frame--never made one). the advantage is, 99.9% of the work can be done by someone with no skills at anything other than following directions. this seems like a big advantage to me. all you really need is one person who knows what they are dong to supervise . i dont know, maybe its the same with a steel frame, but it sounds like the ratio there closer to only 60% freshman grunt labor. as far as the cost goes, tub vs tube, we have discussed that before, and i suggest you read it if you havent allready.

didnt realize the direction this thread would go when i made that first comment...oh well.. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Captain Redbeard]

Well, having never built a tub, I guess I really shouldn't comment. I would love to have a go at it but any time I mention composties around here I am met with scowls of fear and anguish.
Sorry for hijacking this thread, I had no idea. I feel like a bit of an idiot now, like people will discount our car as a fraud or a fake. A bit disheartening to say the least. I guess I should have kept my mouth shut.

-Redbeard

[Birelfanatic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mtg:
Having your frame outsourced is ridiculous. Fabricating the car is every bit as big a part of the project as designing, if not more important. When you actually make the thing, you realize all the millions of details that have to be correct for it to turn out with any quality. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I always thought that's the whole point of FSAE.

That point alone already puts us a bit ahead over our peers who do not have this hands-on experience.

out-sourcing the frame, jeez. what's next, buying a CSR or DSR, re-engineer it and then go to the competition?

[Chris Boyden]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">because if we were all truly honest with ourselves I'm sure there are at least ten components on our cars that could have been built in house but were outsourced or bought. I mean, some teams build V8s, shouldn't we all be doing that? The engine is just as important as the frame is it not? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well put, you guys should lay off. Until you start building everything yourself, you're no better and are acting like a bunch of damn hypocrites.

[Frank]

This is a generalization...BUT it seems to me that the students attending colleges that teach (CNC1, CNC2, CNC3?) practical subjects, love to display their swarth production prowess at the drop of a hat.

The same guys usually talk about fairly basic concepts in design judging.

If a team has got a marketing group that can get them the dollars to pay to have space frames made, then I think "good on them". Personally I wouldn't trust a space frame entirely built by a subcontractor.

In the past, we've use a subcontractor to WELD the tubes together. But we're from a university that currently believes that undergraduate students need to be "certified" to use a file, and a formula SAE team shouldn't have a bench vice of their own.

NOTE: the OHS policy changes annually, depending on who the responsible person is, weather a responsible person exists at all, and depending on how many workplace accidents have cause insurance claims in the last 12 months.

Two years ago we were using lathes and mill, TIG, and OXY. At one stage we even had our own keys to access these machines out of hours.

"Don't burn bridges, unless they're made from magnesium."

[Jeff The Pyro]

personally i'm amazed (and to be honest disappointed) that so many teams just seem to be perfectly fine with outsourcing their entire chassis... going back to the rules and the "intent" of the competition, buying widely available, off the shelf components like wheels, tires, steering wheels, even engine cases, etc. is one thing, but the chassis is about as far from this description as any part on the entire car as far as i'm concerned. 95% of the teams who compete in this competition (including mine) are undersupported by their school, and lose large numbers of members each year to graduation, and are underfunded, etc. etc. and I hardly think this is an excuse because everyone's in the same boat.

Having belonged to a team that for the past 2 years (including our rookie year) has fabricated its own spaceframe without any outside help (other than advice), and having myself spent well over 100 hours in the past 2 years welding both of these together (aside from my other jobs on the team), I've gotten quite a sense of accomplishment from managing this workload, maintaining a halfway decent gpa, and still managing to make it to detroit both times. After having gone through this process, if i were to change over to simply handing off a few drawings and a couple grand to an outside contractor in exchange for a frame it would undoubtedly cheapen this sense of accomplishment. I think statements like "As far as I can tell, actually building the frame is about 0.5% of all the many compenents needed to build a competetive FSAE car." is simply proof that those who chose not to build their own chassis dont have much appreciation for not only the amount of time required but the for the amout of careful thought and skill it takes to construct a quality racecar chassis.

im not purposely trying to offend anyone, but if someone gets offended by my opinion... well thats unfortunate.