Problem in starting the engine.

[Nayan]

I was trying to start the my cbr 600rr(2008) using PE-ECU but the engine failed to start.There is no crank error,nor the injectors & spark plugs.I tried changing the fuel and ignition tables but it didn't help.Now I am out of ideas. Can anyone help me with this.
Thanks

[Nayan]

I was trying to start the my cbr 600rr(2008) using PE-ECU but the engine failed to start.There is no crank error,nor the injectors & spark plugs.I tried changing the fuel and ignition tables but it didn't help.Now I am out of ideas. Can anyone help me with this.
Thanks

[Jon Burford]

Does the engine fire? Did the engine run when you bought it?

[Nayan]

Yes.I ran it for 3 years on stock ECU.Then I recently changed the ECU.

The engine didn't fire on the new ECU(PE).
I checked the CKP reading with O-scope and it was fine.But the engine fails to start.

[Tilman]

Heyho,

are all angles correct? You *have* to check that using a stroboscope, we always had problems when trying to start the engine with angles measured/guessed ...

There are tons of possible errors ... check everything, double check it, let someone else check it ...

[Nayan]

Hello

Actually there engine is not starting but at some point of time there is miss fire.Last time when I tried to check the reading CKP and Ignition with O-scope one of my Ignition coil blew off.

What should be the Fuel pump pressure for the same?

I also sealed the crankcase breathers and exhaust idealers. would that create any problem?

What is the sequence in which i need to connect the injector banks?

[Tilman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nayan:
What should be the Fuel pump pressure for the same?

I also sealed the crankcase breathers and exhaust idealers. would that create any problem?

What is the sequence in which i need to connect the injector banks? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, OK.

Fuel pump pressure is usually around 3.5 bars, at least it is on our car. The required pressure should be in your injector's specifications. If you are using the stock equipment (injectors, pressure regulator, fuel pump) everything should be fine.

The crankcase is breathed to allow the air in there to expand and contract with temperature changes without creating a pressure difference to atmospheric pressure. The crank case is not built to withstand such pressure differences. Do not seal it!

What is an exhaust idealer?

If you do not know in which sequence the injectors have to be connected, I believe you do not know exactely what you are doing, do you?

(For the following, I suppose you are not using a wasted spark setup.)
Since there are different firing orders used in different engines, ECUs usually fire in the order 1-2-3-4. This means that the coil on coil plug 1 is fired first, then the coil on coil plug 2, then 3, then 4. BUT THIS SHOULD BE IN YOUR ECU'S MANUAL! GO CHECK IT. Then it is up to you to correctly wire up the coils to your cylinders. To check your engine's firing order, remove the camshaft cover and turn the crankshaft until both inlet and outlet valves of your left cylinder are closed. This is firing top dead center of your first (numbering from left to right) cylinder. Then turn the crankshaft until the next cylinder is in firing top dead center (all valves closed) and write down which cylinder this is. Repeat that until every cylinder was in firing TDC. Now you have your firing order.

Next to check is when you get the signal from the camshaft sensor. The first cylinder that reaches firing TDC after the camshaft signal is the cylinder that gets connected to your ECU's coil 1 ouput. Connect the other cylinders following the firing order. Injectors are connected the same way. Set up your ECU as good as possible, I think the crankshaft of this engine is built to have 180 degrees between TDCs. Connect the first (first on ECU) coil & spark plug, REMOVE ALL INJECTOR CONNECTIONS, crank the engine and check the ECU setting for your camshaft signal in degrees before top dead center using a timing light. When you got that value, connect everything and try to start the engine.

[Nayan]

Hello
Sorry that i didn't mention about the wastage spark mode.yes the ecu works on the wastage spark mode.
Any way I don't have any idea how to adjust the timing of the engine.Can u please help me with this.
I checked the firing order of the engine and it was 1-2-4-3.
Now I don't understand why the engine is not starting.

Also the ECU don't use the cam position sensor.It only uses the crank position sensor.

[Tilman]

Heyho,

first a word of safety: Wrong ignition timings can result in a coil firing when the inlet valve is open and the combustion can take place in the inlet manifold too, not only in the cylinder. This is dangerous as the manifold is not built to resist the pressure of a combustion and can or will explode. This happened to us and some other teams, too. In our case it was the fault of a crappy (really crappy) ECU and wrong timings. So keep your injectors unconnected until you are sure to have the correct timings.

Getting the timings with wasted spark is done the same way as in a fully sequential setup: Identify the (two) cylinders that reach their top dead centres immediately after the crankshaft sensor recognises the missing teeth/double teeth/whatever on the crankshaft trigger wheel. Connect a timing light to one of the coils of these cylinders, crank the engine with the injectors unconnected and adjust your timing until the mark on the crankshaft lines up with the mark on the engine case indicating top dead centre. If your ecu does not have a special function to do this, all ignition advance timings have to be set to 0 degrees.

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

Nayan,

It sounds like you have one of our older ECUs, the PE-ECU-1. That system requires a 12-1 tooth trigger pattern. Do you have that and is the missing tooth in the correct location.

[Nayan]

Hello Brian

Yes I am using PE-ECU 1.I have placed the missing teeth in correct position.But the engine fails to fire up.Individually the the spark plugs and the injectors are working.They are even working while we crank the engine but engine wont start.

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

Are you getting crank errors while trying to start? Other possible problems include.

1) Large intake manifold leak
2) No fuel pressure (are the plugs wet with fuel when you pull them out?)
3) No +Vbat on the injectors or coils when trying to start
4) Fouled plugs - Torch them with a propane torch. Get them very, very hot (red threeads) to burn off the carbon or dried fuel.

[Nayan]

Hello Brian
I have checked all the above things.They are all fine.Even there is no crank error and the ecu is reading the rpm correctly.

I think the mapping that I am using is not correct.There are very few days left for competition and I am not able to get the correct mapping for the Honda 600rr.It would be a great help if you can provide us with the mapping or I have to revert back to stock ECU or some other one for the competition.

[Tilman]

If the stock ECU works for you, use it!

Using an aftermarket ECU means a lot of work compared to the stock ECU, as you have to build a partially new wiring harness, mount lambda sensors and perhaps exhaust gas temperature sensors to your exhaust, get the engine running in idle (and you have not achieved this yet), get on the dyno and tune at least your fuel map. The ignition advance map, acceleration enrichment and temperature and air pressure corrections should be tweaked to your intake system/engine/exhaust system, too. This is a lot of work to do, so just schedule this for next year.

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

Nayan,

Are the plugs wet with fuel after you try to start the engine for an extended period of time?

Send me an email and I can see if I can dig up a file.

[RobbyObby]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tilman:
If the stock ECU works for you, use it!

Using an aftermarket ECU means a lot of work compared to the stock ECU, as you have to build a partially new wiring harness, mount lambda sensors and perhaps exhaust gas temperature sensors to your exhaust, get the engine running in idle (and you have not achieved this yet), get on the dyno and tune at least your fuel map. The ignition advance map, acceleration enrichment and temperature and air pressure corrections should be tweaked to your intake system/engine/exhaust system, too. This is a lot of work to do, so just schedule this for next year. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We actually got lucky this year with our wiring and sensor layout. We were originally going to run the MS3 ECU, but just in case, wired the harness in such a way that we used most if not all of the same layout as the stock ECU, and kept the redundant wiring, even though it wasn't needed.

Sure enough, a week and a half before leaving for MIS, we still couldn't get the engine to idle properly, and said "screw it" and pulled the MS3, wired up the stock ECU, and the engine fired and idled the first try. All told, it only took 1 night and only our dedicated powertrain lead to swap it out.

Probably saved our competition hopes.

End of story time now. To the OP, good luck on getting it running. If your harness is easy to reconfigure, and you said the engine ran fine with the stock ECU, I'd say just say screw it and go back to stock. Ya, we ran with probably 10 HP less than we could've by running the aftermarket ECU, but the key term there is we RAN! Although if you do decide to keep running the PE ECU, you've certainly got the right help with Brian here on these forums. If anyone can direct you to a solution, it's him.

Good luck.