Genesis 80fi ECU options

[acain]

Hey everyone. My team is looking into options for an ecu for our yamaha genesis 80fi. We planned on using a Power Commander III but none of us have enough tuning experience to adjust the maps ourselves with the time we have left. Does anyone know of any autotune options that would work with a 2007 genesis engine?

[MCoach]

Stock ECU.

Or you could always use the piggyback Powder Commander with all of the adjustment tables set to '0'. That's basically a stock tune, and from there adjust whatever seems necessary little by little. Engine temp compensation, base spark map, whatever.

[Andrew Richards]

+1 For piggyback

Largest change you will have to make is to your fuel map.

[Jon Burford]

what are you planning on doing with the Genesis?

[tromoly]

Jon, I'm underclassmen help on the team Andrew the OP is on. Andrew's post was really vague, so I'll fill in a bunch of details.

We have a Power Commander V on order that should be here Tuesday. The biggest issue we are trying to overcome is that using the manufactured intake the pressure sensors in the runners are throwing codes 14 and 26, which are errors for both pressure sensor hose problems. However, using the stock throttle body we have zero problems and have actually gotten the engine to run smooth and up to 11k rpm with no problems.

The initial thinking is that by using the plenum the pressure differential is acting differently than on the stock throttle body, causing the sensors to not react properly. The engine team captain keeps saying that the pressure drop in the runners should only be 1.5 kPa because "that's what a guy on the internet said" and has no real data to back it up, and that "1.5 kPa" is what is causing the sensors to not work properly. As much as we try to explain to him that the person telling him that doesn't have his intake or restrictor and therefore can't use that data, the engine team captain is sure he's correct. But I digress.

One team member on frame team has stepped up and tried wiring resistors onto the pressure sensors to fool them into allowing the engine to start, and while it got the engine started the engine runs really bad after that, likely because the engine is thinking it's getting more air flow than is really present. We're hoping that by using the PC V we can adjust the pressure sensor range so they work, but we really have no idea what's causing the sensors to not work properly on the new intake.

I hope that gave some more details and made sense, thanks for listening and thanks in advance for any help.

Troy Ament
Bradley University
FSAE Underclassman

[Moreboost]

do you have any photos of where you are mounting them?

[Jon Burford]

I never ran the genesis on the stock kit, but I do remember the twin MAP sensors on the runners. The ECU will use the MAP values to adjust the fuelling, hence why fitting static resistors is making your engine run badly.
I wouldn't waste the time though. I would cut the original ECU out completely (Well I did infact). A standalone ecu is a small price to pay to remove all of these problems. The Genesis isn't a difficult engine to tune, providing you have a dyno and you aren't doing anything silly with your plenum and exhaust, I doubt you are going to have any troubles at all
I have never used power commander so I can give you no advice with that I am afraid.

If you send some pictures of your plenum and exhaust, I would be happy to take a look for you.

I would be interested in knowing how you are planning on running the engine. CVT?

[tromoly]

I'll post pictures of the intake and exhaust in a bit when I'm back on campus. The exhaust is mostly stock off the snowmobile up to a 90-degree bend into the muffler, pictures will be more clear on that.

Jon, yes we are running the stock CVT for simplicity. In the past teams have ran Suzuki GSXR and Honda CBR600RR engines with a CVT mated to the engines, but they've been exploding the last few years due to the combination, hence this team went for the Genesis.

We were supposed to do dyno pulls in January, however the load cell on our engine dyno broke in December (was undersized and easily replaced) and the engine team captain dragged his feet, designed the first intake too big, and finally finished the second one having his hand held at every step a couple weeks ago. So combining the time crunch with the flooding of our primary garage and the garage where the engine dyno is on Wednesday night, I don't think we'll get the engine on the dyno. I'll upload some pictures of the flooding as well.

What ECU would be recommended for the Genesis? We're hitting a point where we just need to get the thing going with the plenum so we can drive it around and make sure it won't overheat using two sportbike radiators.

Thanks

[Jon Burford]

Right, well if you have no time to dyno then I guess you will have to go with the stock map, just finding a way to get it running I suppose.

It's nice to hear that you are running the CVT too! I hope you get some success with it. We used DTA ecu's and they are what I recommend to everybody, but you have to have something that works for you. Although I can vouch that DTA ran our Genesis really well, even with the turbo. There were no issues setting up the crank cam sync with the stock sensors and triggers.
Although, if you don't have the time to tune it, I guess it's a thought for the future.

The genesis does like to run quite hot in the snowmobile I am told, and it seemed to run quite hot for us too, needing a bit more cooling than the CBR we used before, although we were turbocharging and never ran it without the turbo, so I guess I have no N/A information for you.

I look forward to seeing your pictures.

[tromoly]

I've uploaded some pictures.

Intake (Restrictor goes on top of that, with throttle body above the restrictor):
http://imageshack.us/a/img694/244/img20130414121433.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img138/7964/img20130414122546.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img18/8360/img20130414121440.jpg

Exhaust (O2 sensor is for the Power Commander Autotune system, not stock):
http://imageshack.us/a/img580/5782/img20130414121414.jpg

And slightly off topic, some pictures of the flooding from the other night, second one is of the room the dyno and our steel rack is in:
http://imageshack.us/a/img541/3969/img20130410211123.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img571/1483/img20130410211131.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img14/3883/img20130410211151.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img849/1124/img20130410211203.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img442/3374/img20130410211221.jpg

[Jon Burford]

the plenum looks as if it shouldn't cause you any problems, I take it those two pipes coming of the runners are for the MAP sensors?

Running it N/A, so the standard exhaust would be a good place to start and the collector looks good.
It's good that you have been able to fit it in the car. The rear exhaust exit on the genesis engine is one of the things that makes it so nice for putting in a car.
I would be interested to know what goes on inside that box at the back though http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
It looks like you have been having a pretty tricky time of it with the workshop. I hope you can get it sorted and that the power commander gets it running nicely. I like the chain reduction too. It's similar to what we did.
If you can think of anything that I might be help you with; let me know.
It should be a good car, I will be watching out for you!

[tromoly]

Jon, thanks for the kind words, the car is slowly getting figured out. Will you by chance be at the Michigan competition?

The larger ports on the intake runners are for the fuel injectors, the 90-degree fittings are for the pressure hoses coming off of the intake runners. The same fittings were used on last year's car with the CBR and the exact same pressure sensors (odd 'cause ours are stock for the snowmobile), we're still a bit puzzled.

The box in the back is actually the muffler, the exhaust stinger points straight down at the ground about a half inch lower than the chassis in that area. Initial dB testing has us at 110.5 dB inside the garage, we have a couple things to try to make sound.

[Jon Burford]

Troy,
Sadly not, I'm from the UK and I have never been to an American Competition. Maybe next year... =]

I see, so you are using the snow mobile MAP sensors? I don't remember the position of the MAP sensors relative to the snowmobiles throttle plate, but I guess if they are working with the standard intake and not with your plenum, it's down to the pressure inside the plenum causing a reading that is outside what it thinks it should be getting and therefore isn't playing.
That is just speculation as I have no idea how the phazer's ECU works, but I can't really think of much else, especially if it claims it has a pressure problem.
Incidentally, what happens if you leave the MAP sensors connected electrically but don't connect them to the plenum, i.e. just block up those pipes on your plenum. See if it starts then. It's not a solution, but it might help figure out your problem.

Ours was on the limit of the noise regs too, although I used a stupidly small round exhaust can that I would make bigger if I was doing it again. Don't forget how they take the reading at the noise test, I forget the exact wording of the regulation, but I doubt having the outlet so close to the ground is going to be doing you any favours.

[Brian Barnhill]

Tromoly:

Might try moving the bung for the pressure sensor up into the body of the plenum (you could do just one tap and split it to the two sensors). The positioning in the stock throttle bodies was there due to the location of the butterfly. You might be getting some odd pressure readings in the runner since you have air moving around a bit. The air in the body of the plenum should be a bit more static/more stable.

When I got the genesis engine running we ran on the stock ecu, with the stock throttle body, then stock throttle body with a Haltech PS 2000, then restrictor/plenum with the haltech and a GM MAP sensor on a Speed-Density VE based map. I MAY be at Michigan this year if you guys are still having issues (depends on my brother's team finishing their car since/making it out)

As another note - the stock CVT will do ok, except for the secondary. WPI had issues with back-shifting and shift points in general. New weights were installed and Aaen Performance coated the clutch cam and did the preload/spring. Worked MUCH better after that. Before the install the car wouldn't backshift properly coming into a corner and would then accelerate poorly when you tried to get back on it again.

[Jon Burford]

yup, we used the stock cvt but with different primary/secondary springs, cam and fly weights, although our engagement was still far too low giving us lag coming out of really slow corners.

[Andrew Richards]

It has been a while since I dug up the stock throttle body setup to see if it has a throttle position sensor... but does it? My thought here being you could try unplugging the map sensor to put the ecu into a alpha n strategy. It would be very conservative with fueling especially for your application with the restrictor but it could be worked out. We are running a bosch motorsport MS3 on the genesis and it works really well however does require the addition of a custom trigger wheel on the crank.

[tromoly]

Sorry for the late reply, been busy with other things.

Turns out the most vacuum that could be pulled with the short runner length was 5inHg, a quarter of the 20inHg that the stock throttle body pulls. So, now neither of the engine team's intakes are going to be used because they don't work, and the car is running a cobbled together PVC intake built by members of frame team that, with some slight adjustment using circuitry and zener diodes, allows the engine to run. So to put it nicely, after 4 months of waiting on an intake and then having to build something else, most of the team is not happy with said engine team captain. Should be an interesting week next week.