High School FSAE Team Progress

[SeanM]

Hey guys, thought i'd put a link up to pictures of the Cardinal Carter High School Formula SAE team pictures. last year around this time we posted pictures of our first attempt and now we are working on a car that meets all FSAE rules.

http://www.carterstudentengineers.com/shop_updates.htm

[SeanM]

Hey guys, thought i'd put a link up to pictures of the Cardinal Carter High School Formula SAE team pictures. last year around this time we posted pictures of our first attempt and now we are working on a car that meets all FSAE rules.

http://www.carterstudentengineers.com/shop_updates.htm

[Homemade WRX]

looking good and very organized...continue to keep us updated

[Bill Kunst]

They may make some of the college teams look bad...OH SNAP! Really, if you think about the shops available in most high schools, they should have the manufacturing capabilities to kill a college squad. For example:
http://www.huhs.org/departments/technology/

Now, I know what you are saying, but the pics are not all up to date. I went on a visit and they have a 32 bit turret CNC, a laser, cnc plasma, 8 cnc lathes with generous capacities, a wire EDM, a CAMM, 28 welding stations..... the list goes on. It is a rediculous high school as far as equipment goes.

Good luck to those Cardinals
Bill

[SeanM]

Thanks Bill we do have a fairly good shop and thanks to some of our sponcers it keeps getting better. and anything we can't do we have connections for, so hopefully we'll be seeing you guys at competition next year with a car, we haven't been allowed in this year.

[Blake_DFSAE]

If we go in next year and get beat by a high school team (no offense HS folk, I think it's awesome that you're building a car and I wish my school had that) I'll be upset

[RiNaZ]

On the contrary, i think HS folks should beat at least most rookie teams.

One main reason is because, high school folks tend to be in a group of old friends where they've been hanging out since 8 or 9. So they have that special bond of knowing each other's strong points and weaknesses.

Another reason, they probably have more money than we do!!! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

And im hoping they dont have to deal with university's beauracracy as high school teachers tend to be more supportive.

And 16-18 year old kids tend to have more drive, motivation and ambition than college kids.

And not learning much of engineering classes could be an advantage, they dont overcomplicated stuff.

Of course, all of the above is meant as a joke http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[SeanM]

Well we are certainly hoping to show at least a few universities a thing or two, and not being allowed to enter this year is really gonna help us cause now we have time to perfect the designs that we weren't gonna be able to get done.

[KevinD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RiNaZ:

And 16-18 year old kids tend to have more drive, motivation and ambition than college kids.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

haha, speak for yourself here. when i was in high school, i was more concerned with ultima online, warcraft 2, mountain bike racing and the next snowboarding day. i didn't do my homework, fell asleep in class, and generally goofed off always.

now, i spend more time in the shop then i do at my full time job. and somewhere between the two i fit classes and sleep comes last on the priority list. i think it is safe to say, anyone on a FSAE team is more motivated then they would be in high school without a formula team (because we all know it takes insane amount of time to get it done.... nothing but motivation will finish a car)

[cieutag]

I don't want to take away from those high school kids it looks like they got there stuff going in the right direction (better than us) but, in high school you don't have to worry about as many personal issues, i.e. feeding yourself, paying bills, passing college classes etc. If we had the time that we had in high school then building a car wouldn't be that big of a deal. I hope I don't offend anyone but most HS kids don't have to worry about a lot of the stuff we do.

Chip

[RiNaZ]

I kinda meant that high school kids have more drive and motivation if they had FSAE in their school compare to college kids in the same situation (just an opinion, i know most of you dont agree).

One reason being is that they tend to be more of a risk taker than older guys. Im sure they worry as much in personal issues, but i think they probably have less responsibilities (in general).

[SeanM]

Well thanks for the comments guys but can we get some tech talk going instead of talking about who has more of a drive

[Jersey Tom]

The first step in having a successful car, is having a SOLID team. Technical expertise won't save you if you have a disjointed, unaccountable team.

That said, I'd say there's a good chance you'll have cooling issues mounting the radiator there. Not much airflow. We tried it once back in the day.

[CMURacing - Prometheus]

all i know is, if my high school had had formula, i'd have even fewer friends than i do now. when there's like 6 people that accomplish 80+% of the work, you don't see many other people very often.

that, and none of my friends from high school liked cars like i did.

[SeanM]

for the record that black car you see in a couple pictures is our first car that we built last year to see if we could do it, the other pics with a half completed frame are for this year, we just got our rads in today and their going in the side pods

[KU_Racing]

To be honest guys, no disrespect, but I do not think that high school students should be allowed to compete. The point of formula SAE is not to learn how to fabricate- there are already a wealth of excellent racing fabricators, and if that is a career choice that someone wants to make, it is fairly easy to find a route to being a race mechanic or fabricator.

The point of FSAE is for the STUDENTS to do the engineering design work to build the best possible race car. And there is little that anyone can do to convince me that a car designed by high school students will be well engineered. The education is simply not there yet. Im not saying that high schoolers can't build a car that will haul ass and beat a lot of colleges- I just doubt the quality of the engineering behind such a car.

[Schulberg J]

I don't see what all the animosity is about. I think this is awesome. I wish my high school had something like this. I'm suprized people arent fighting over recruiting these kids.

[SeanM]

Ku
the point of this project is not to learn how to fabricate, the students on this team have been selected for their technical skills, we already know how to build it. the point of this project is to give us a hands on approach to learning how to engineer a race car, yes we do not have the same education most of you do and we do have some help from our teachers but they do not engineer parts for us they teach us what we need to know to work the parts out ourselves.

Shulberg
It's funny you say that because every time we talk to a university team they always pitch us something to try to get us to go to that university.

[B.K.]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KU_Racing:
The point of formula SAE is not to learn how to fabricate... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd argue that getting the car made is at least half of the challenge of Formula SAE. Besides, that's where the best out-of-the-classroom lessons of FSAE are learned.

I'm also wary of taking an elitist stance about being engineering students; we all know that a group of smart high school kids with time to go through engineering books and a good teacher could do a good portion of the engineering that FSAE teams do on their cars.

[SeanM]

One thing i see in this competition is that the engineering background helps in understanding the more complexed aspects and more of the math involved in the equations, but a lot of race engineering is not taught in the class room, and teams learn about it through books and seminars by Carroll smith or Milliken etc. so by going this route and learning the more complicated aspects of it as we go by talking to universities or former race engineers we can end up doing a lot of the work.

(I know some of you will think i'm just making stuff up, because i'm in high school what do i know about engineering. My father is an engineer i've worked with him and hes been tring to teach me since i was young. so i do know a little on the subject.)

[KU_Racing]

My gripe isnt with the fact that FSAE
ers are building a car. In fact, had my high school had a similar program, I would have participated. What I am saying is that, no offense to the students from this school, I have serious doubts about the amount of engineering work that the students actually do.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">a good teacher could do a good portion of the engineering that FSAE teams do on their cars </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is exactly my point- the object of the competion is not for the teacher to do the work. The car is supposed to be designed and built by the students, not by their professors.

As far as being an elitist, it is my opinion that Engineering is one of the three hardest fields that someone can work in during their career, and I am proud to be an engineering student.

And you are right, fabrication is a major part of the competition, since you cant compete with a car that doesnt run. But how much of the competition is scored on how well you fabricate?? Exactly 5 points out of the 1000. I would point to the fact that, as many FSAE'ers already know, the questions the judges ask can be extrememly detailed and hard to answer. I dont think that a students response to a question should ever be, "well my professor designed this part, so let me point you in their direction."

[kwancho]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">group of smart high school kids with time to go through engineering books and a good teacher could do a good portion of the engineering that FSAE teams do on their cars. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
KU, might want to take a gander at that one again.

[Bill Kunst]

Hey,
I am one of those A-hole teachers that would love to have a group of students compete in a project like this, and for simplicity I would lean towards a go-kart or a high milage vehicle (both of which have comps for HS). But, and hear me out on this one, do you really think that the first years you have on your team designing any component of the car are better than these HS students. Three months before you got those bed wetters on your team they were worried about who they were going to prom with (or without).

And what about the non engineer STUDENTS (emphasizing that we are all students) that work on the cars (everyones). The business, marketing, teaching, plastics, machining, and other majors that are involved. Are you telling me that on most teams where these individuals have taken the time to learn (the software's, the design analysis, and everything else that goes into the design) don't know what they are doing and that you would rather have them sit it out.

I think that anyone that has doubts about a HS team beating a college team should take a look at the last 60 places for FSAE and tell me that a group of determined kids with the right facilities can't beat them. I say Bullshit. Obviously if you doubt this you had a shitty Technology Education facility compared to the ones available to some schools, and you don't realize the possibilities.

I for one would rather have a group of Hike SKoolers than the group of children at college that tell you that they got better things to work on than FSAE.

Oh yeah, forgot- CHECK YOURSELF BEFORE YOU WRECK YOURSELF (TRANSLATIONS-DON'T MAKE YOURSELF LOOK LIKE AN IDIOT BY SPEWING VERBAL DIARRHEA)

Bill Kunst

[SeanM]

Bill thanks for the positive reply, and the support. we originally looked into go-kart and super mileage competitions, but their just not the same as FSAE.

[Jersey Tom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Oh yeah, forgot- CHECK YOURSELF BEFORE YOU WRECK YOURSELF </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ice Cube fan, Bill?

I dunno. HS FSAE team is cool. I'm glad you guys are working on it, and with the right determined kids you could definately score fairly well. But at the same time, I'm wary of it, for the same reasons that were pointed out earlier. Four years of college education and being down working on the car, you learn a LOT, but still only a fraction of what's out there. So I'm wary of the caliber of engineering and analysis at the HS level. But hey, let em compete. Have the students grilled by the design judges just like everyone else. If they score well, more power and more props to em.

[BryanP]

I am the faculty advisor for Carter Student Engineers.
We applied to bring our car to the competition to display it only and have it pass tech inspection. We asked to have the car would participate in static events only. We wish to prove that we are 100% rules compliant. We are aware of the insurance and safety concerns of this event and we wish to be a fully positive contribution. Carter Student Engineers is not about putting Cornell a lap down in the Enduro. Perhaps when the students get to University they can give it a try. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
High school students are fully capable of engineering quality products. In my province there are no formal engineering courses taught in High School. How can we expect students to be capable of engineering when they have not been taught? Given the challenges our domestic auto industry faces from Asian competition and the fact that China is in the process of training its future engineers on pirated software to work at rock bottom labor rates the only niche left for us will be top end design work. We are going to have to make a quantum leap in our education to hold on to this area.
Teaching is a great career and I would encourage many of you to consider it. We need you.
My goal is to provide knowledge of good design practices for the students. In a recent example a student showed me a linkage design. It was nicely thought out but was in single shear. It took all of 30 seconds to point out an example of single and double shear on last year's car. Now he understands.
I attempt to provide relevant information for each area of design. The student's design components without wasting an enormous amount time just trying to find sources of information about what they need. I then do quality control.
My students have not been allowed to achieve their goal of being allowed to present their car to the design judges at the SAE event in Michigan this year. As their culminating activity they will be presenting the car for technical inspection to our title sponsor. This is a man who as a youth worked for Fangio and knew Colin Chapman. He started his own company in 2001 and now employs over 3800 people. No one will bluff this man. The students must understand their work.
We will apply to be allowed to statically display our car at the Michigan event and pass Tech inspection for the 2007 event.
Our team will attend the Michigan event to observe and learn. Please help the students with their technical questions and let the organizers know of your support for our team if you agree with our objectives.
Regards
Bryan

[Wes]

If my high school had let us build a formula car, I might have actually cared about high school for longer than the 2 seconds it took for the principal to hand me a diploma.

Just from the pictures on the the website I can say that you are FAR better equiped than we are at a university level. SAE is the bastard child of our university, and recieves little more than a dark corner to work in. I would also guess that your budget (however low you may think it is) is much greater than ours.

That being said, I have no doubt that a high school team could make a formula car compete.
An engineering degree is not required to build a race car, but god does it help.
A formula car is far more complicated and intricate than a go kart or high mileage car. And, a lot more dangerous. Anyone can weld some pieces of steel together, but that is a very minor part of designing a race car. I question how well highschool students understand torsional rigidity, FEA (not the fancy computer software, I mean finite element method), suspension geometry, spring rates, damping coeficients, material properties, or safety factors.

PS You guys better un-pop your collars if you want to be on our formula team.

[JagLite]

MAGNIFICENT http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I concur with several of the above voices from around the world. If the high school I attended had something like this I would be a different person today. I would not have dropped out, built a sailboat, sailed down the coast of Mexico and over to Hawaii and ended up a charter boat captain on Maui for 10 years. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

And now, many-many years later I am designing my own FSAE car. No, I am not in school, I race AUTOCROSS and I think the FSAE cars are perfect! Small, light, fast, and fun. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif My Miata is nice, but not a serious race car and since it is my daily ride I don't want to turn it into a serious racer. I no longer live in the heat and sun of Hawaii and yes, I get checked for skin cancer every 3 months.

But, since I picked up a wrecked Suzuki 600 sportbike and a donor car (Subaru Justy) for the hubs, brakes, diff, axles, and everything else I can use I am designing my own Locost FSAE car. True, it will be much heavier than your cars as I do not have a machine shop to mill out custom uprights and all the other fancy (expensive) parts. But, I am not competing against any of you. I will be the only one in the FSAE class at our events. And if that is not fast enough for the FTD (fast time of day) then I will drop in the Suzuki GSXR 750 motor I just got. Heh-heh-heh and I will move into the SCCA A-Modified class then.

Also like you I am planning to build more than one car as I know I will learn a lot from the first one.

What did you use to get the power from the counter shaft to the diff on your car? I am trying now to come up with a simple (read affordable) system that is short so I do not have to put the engine any farther forward. Like your car, my motor sits longitudinaly so there is a straight line from the countershaft to the diff. I was thinking of adapting a CV joint but there must be a better way.

Keep up the High School leadership! I hope more HS follow your lead.

I did attend University finally by the way, although not for a degree, but to learn CAD.

James

[SeanM]

last year we designed a 2 piece drive shaft splined to the output shaft on the motor and the other end splined to the diff, it bolts together and sandwiches the rear brake. this year we did the same thing just much shorter

[RiNaZ]

you must've paid a lot just to learn CAD thru the university. Ever try getting the guys in that university to teach you instead? Im sure you dont have to pay as much.

And, usually, you dont need a class for CAD. But if you've never had any CAD experience, a first few intro is good, but afterwards, you can pretty much learn on your own.

Even a massive program like CATIA isnt that hard to learn for doing simple CAD. I think it's the question of whether you have the time to learn it or not becoz any CAD takes a couple of hours every day to get use tu.

[JagLite]

Good points RiNaZ,

Like many of us over 50, I was a computer novice. I talked with several people doing CAD drafting and most said the same thing, "buy it and teach yourself". However, I have learned that usually when you teach yourself something it is slower and you learn lots of bad habits.

I compared prices for various schools and ended up taking the beginning AutoCAD course at the local University. It cost less than the computer I bought to practice with at home. I was hired by an engineering firm before the semester was over so it worked out very well. I am currently a Design Drafter V and I use AutoCAD 8+ hours a day on a huge variety of projects. (no houses)

Over the years I have taken classes for skiing, flying, driving, racing, diving, dancing, motorcycle street riding (after racing dirt bikes for 30+ years), autocross course design, and many other interests, and in all areas I have friends who were self taught. Every one of them would have improved if they had taken a class with a real instructor, and most would have avoided serious problems that came from their learning "experience".

However, this thread is about a high school FSAE car design/build team. I strongly disagree with those who say that high school students are not capable of designing and building a safe, competitive car. I know that some students are capable of great things and if given a direction and (very importantly) an interesting goal, they can astound people.

After all, what makes a college team SO MUCH smarter than a high school team? Pride? Or perhaps the drinking parties? We have several EIT's (engineer in training) here that have a degree, but no common sense design ability. They come up with the most complicated and often lousy designs that would never be built. So everyone learns and that starts with reading. Reading what others have done before and understanding why it worked or why it did not. Then, after a thorough understanding of the theory and practice, build on that with new ideas and directions. Not everything will be an improvement though. Do you remember the 6 wheel (Benneton?) Formula 1 car? They spent a ton of money to see if that would be an improvement over the competition. It wasn't they learned. And now we have Audi with the Diesel Sports Racer. So many said "It will never be competitive" and "It won't work". Now look at the results! Not that I am eager to go out and buy a diesel sportscar, I do appreciate the new thinking and possibilities.

After examining pictures of all the entries in the FSAE events for the past few years that I could find, I see that some teams do not have a basic understanding of chassis design, which anyone can get by reading the many books available. So what? They are learning something, even if it is only what not to do.

As I look at the pictures of the Carter Students car I see many excellent design solutions and original thinking. The build quality appears in the pictures to be first rate too.

It is true that a High School team could be just building to the design of the instructor. Just as some Univerity teams now probably get more than a little direction. However, I have seen or read about high school teams building boats, houses, kit cars, and even at least one built a Kitfox airplane. True, they did not design them but they still learned a lot in the process. However, as for Carter Student Engineers, it does sound like the students are resonsible for the design of their car.

So I say GOOD ON YOU! and I do hope the FSAE sees the benfits to have you enter officially.

[Gianluca]

People should'nt be making "assumptions" and biased remarks just because we are High School students. Our team captain made this thread for suggestions on a technical basis, not to be judged on our motives and education.

Thank you.

Gianluca
Business Director, CSE

[SNasello]

Hey guys, i think its awesome that high school team is making a car. Im actually from not too far from carter and my sister goes there (live in king city).

All of this talk about high schoolers not being able to engineer anything is bollocks. Im in first year and i have (albeit with a bit of instruction) designed and build quite a few things on this years car, with no previous design experience. granted i have also learned a great deal of skills as far as fabricating and design goes.

The times where you will learn the most are when you design something, build it, and then find out the hard way that it doest work the way you wanted it to. (happens to the best of us).

I hope you guys will be able to compete in the future, because the harder the judges grill you on your design choices, the more you will learn. I look forward to seeing you guys at comp this year and (if its done) would love to see this years finished car from you guys.

[Gianluca]

your welcome to come visit the shop, im sure our teacher wont mind at all.

[SeanM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Gianluca:
your welcome to come visit the shop, im sure our teacher wont mind at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i'd like to extend that invitation to anyone on these forums who is in the GTA or surrounding area, who would like to see our progress or has doubts about our capabilities, come over and see for yourselves.

[SNasello]

ill stop by for sure, im finished on the 29th and will be back for a week. Id love to see the progress.

[RiNaZ]

hey stefan, i was at baja east competition a week ago and i was volunteering for the carnage crew. I saw and hang out with some of the Queens baja guys. The car that they had was very fast and i think they finished within the top 3. And then, there was this car from sherbrooke univ., that car was fast too. I timed them and i think their average lap time is well within 10 mins range.

But then there was this rumour going around saying that the queens guy didnt fabricate any of the parts of the car. They cant even if they want to becoz of university policies and tools being a liability and such.

I also heard that even the sherbrooke car wasnt built by the guys in the team.

Do you guys have that same problem?

[SNasello]

rinaz, as far as i know this is not true. We have a fully functioning machine shop with 3 new Haus CNC mills, a few CNC lathes and a few manual machines. Both formula and baja do most of our own fabrication. I know that baja this year machined theyre own gearbox. They spend a lot of time in the machine shop so afaik they do quite a bit of their own fabrication.

As for formula, this is also true. We do alot of our own fabrication in the machine shop. The machinists here will help if help is required but the work is done mainly by the students.

Here at Queens in mechanical engineering there is a second year practical course that takes place in the machine shop and teaches use of lathes, mills (both CNC and manual), welding, use of plasma cutter (very cool), and some other machines that weve got in the shop, so there arent any liability issues that i know of.

[John Valerio]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RiNaZ:

But then there was this rumour going around saying that the queens guy didnt fabricate any of the parts of the car. They cant even if they want to becoz of university policies and tools being a liability and such.

I also heard that even the sherbrooke car wasnt built by the guys in the team.

Do you guys have that same problem? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

RiNaz (and anyone who heard this), I don't know where those ridiculous rumours came from but they are just that. Just to backup what my team mate is saying, Baja and us definately do all of our own fabrication. As far as Baja goes, our school has an excellent team and the machine and metal work they do is above and beyond what most formula teams pull off, perhaps this very high quality of work is the reason this rumour started? who knows.
As far as our team goes, i personally fabricated all of the hubs, rotors, uprights, spindles, a arms, upper ball joints, and knuckles. so yeah, no outsourcing here. we do it all.

oh and i think a high school FSAE team is a great idea, and i'm definately looking forward to seeing them at comp, if only to go through tech and static events. Another great thing about the team is if any of them decide to come to queen's (great school by the way) they will a) bring a good base of knowledge and b) reduce the number of times all the upper years are asked how fast does it go, or why are there no paddle shifters, or any of those types of questions which we all love. but yeah, Carter students are definately welcome in our paddock at comp, we'll be the ones with the wicked clear coated carbon fibre monocoque.

John Valerio
Queen's FSAE

[John Valerio]

one more thing,
sean or gianluca, was your car the one at the 05 UofT shootout? if so, how come it stayed on the trailer? i was looking forward to seeing it run.

John Valerio
Queen's FSAE

[SeanM]

Yes our car was at the U of T shoot out, unfortunately since we had not passed tech at any previous SAE event they did not have insurance coverage for us, therefore we could not run the car.

[RacingManiac]

To clarify, it is our concious decision for the Shootout that we will only allow car that has been through tech at a FSAE event is eligible to run. As a) we don't have enough of an expertise to really scruitinized the car, and b) we don't have the experience to do so. It'd be logically if not legally irresponsible to certify a car deemed as safe to run ourselves. And we also don't actually write the rule for FSAE, so we cannot speak for the rule maker for their wording or intent of those regulation. This rule will most likely stand for all future Shootout as it has been in the past. Though like last year we will have a scruitneer on site from British Empire Motor Club to ensure the car is still safe to take to the track on the day of the event.

[SeanM]

And that is why we did not run at the shootout

[Kyle Walther]

Why don't you attend a local autocross. I'm sure they'd let you run under A mod. Call up some local teams and make a good race of it. Then all this bench racing can be put to rest.

[SeanM]

In the summer we did do some autocross racing.

[Erich Ohlde]

I hope to see the HS team at the competition in 07. If not to compete against then to at least see the car in person. If any of the HS team members are going to be in at the Detroit competition stop by the ACTUAL KU trailer, I'd love to shoot the shit with you guys. (note for everyone reading these forums KU_Racing is not affiliated with the University of Kansas)

[SeanM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jayhawk_electrical:
I hope to see the HS team at the competition in 07. If not to compete against then to at least see the car in person. If any of the HS team members are going to be in at the Detroit competition stop by the ACTUAL KU trailer, I'd love to shoot the shit with you guys. (note for everyone reading these forums KU_Racing is not affiliated with the University of Kansas) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Most of the team should be there, me and a few others will definately stop by

[Eshu]

It's a neat dream: bring the HS FSAE car for static judging and tech inspection. Chances are that it's not going to happen in '07 either. Understand, FSAE is turning away paying, eligible college teams already. If they make an exception for you, where does it stop? As long as the 140 entry field is filled in the current format, then no soup for you.

If you really want to get to comp then view it from the organizers perspective and give them a compelling reason (that aligns with their interests)to let you in. That may be more difficult and time consuming than building the car.

Speaking of the car, let's talk, Okay? First a disclamier or two. I am not a motorsports professional. I don't design cars for a living. What I say could easily be flawed. Buyer beware...

Now on to some observations:
-No plenum on the intake is probably not the best idea. Look at RMIT. 450cc Single. Good sized plenum. There is a reason it's there. Think isolation of the restrictor. Think reversion flow is bad. It's just fluid dynamics, baby!

-Front A-arm rod end (on upright) is in bending. Especially bad under braking. Pat Clarke would beat you if you were Aussies. This will work if the rod end is big enough but its not the most efficent structure nor the stiffest. Maybe stiffness is important on members that locate the contact patches. Just a thought.

-Load paths are convoluted. How is the car being held up? Recite the spaceframe mantras: "Put the loads into nodes" and "Happy triangles make happy car".

-Brakes make heat. Bad things happen when they can't dissipate heat. Things expand when they get hot. Clearences can easily become interferences under stress and heat. Danger, Will Robinson.

-So many tubes. So many tubes. Those tubes are required by the rules but can you put them to practical use too? Steel is, like, heavy, dude.

All that said, I've seen worse walking around comp. Some 600+ pound cars with yugo build quality come to mind. Keep at it, young Jedi.

Out

[SeanM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Eshu:
It's a neat dream: bring the HS FSAE car for static judging and tech inspection. Chances are that it's not going to happen in '07 either. Understand, FSAE is turning away paying, eligible college teams already. If they make an exception for you, where does it stop? As long as the 140 entry field is filled in the current format, then no soup for you.

If you really want to get to comp then view it from the organizers perspective and give them a compelling reason (that aligns with their interests)to let you in. That may be more difficult and time consuming than building the car.

Speaking of the car, let's talk, Okay? First a disclamier or two. I am not a motorsports professional. I don't design cars for a living. What I say could easily be flawed. Buyer beware...

Now on to some observations:
-No plenum on the intake is probably not the best idea. Look at RMIT. 450cc Single. Good sized plenum. There is a reason it's there. Think isolation of the restrictor. Think reversion flow is bad. It's just fluid dynamics, baby!

-Front A-arm rod end (on upright) is in bending. Especially bad under braking. Pat Clarke would beat you if you were Aussies. This will work if the rod end is big enough but its not the most efficent structure nor the stiffest. Maybe stiffness is important on members that locate the contact patches. Just a thought.

-Load paths are convoluted. How is the car being held up? Recite the spaceframe mantras: "Put the loads into nodes" and "Happy triangles make happy car".

-Brakes make heat. Bad things happen when they can't dissipate heat. Things expand when they get hot. Clearences can easily become interferences under stress and heat. Danger, Will Robinson.

-So many tubes. So many tubes. Those tubes are required by the rules but can you put them to practical use too? Steel is, like, heavy, dude.

All that said, I've seen worse walking around comp. Some 600+ pound cars with yugo build quality come to mind. Keep at it, young Jedi.

Out </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all we have talked with organizers, they have to work out some issues with insurance and the facilities for the 07 comp, and if they get that sorted out properly, we will be able to register for the competiton like any other university.

Yes there are parts of the car that i'm not to happy with but we're working through it. each car we build gets better, we'll see how it holds up when we get in.

Note: I agree with you on the intake, we should have a plenum but our engine guy is to lazy to do anything but tell us he has nothing to do.

[Eshu]

Good for you. If you do make it to comp some college teams need a wake up call.

So, a lazy engine guy? One of the worst sort of FSAE vermin in my opinion. Exterminate with extreme predjudice. Do it twice, because slapping the stock carb on the end of a runner/restrictor is not a winning play.

One last nugget to share: Engineering is the art of weeding out the bad ideas before the metal is cut. Learn it. Know it. Live it.

Out

[Big Bird]

Sean, Gianluca, Brian and crew,

First of all, congrats to you and all your team. I think it is fantastic what you are doing as a high school team, and for those of you moving onto uni you will be miles ahead of your undergrad colleagues. Some of the best FSAE team members I have met have been involved in high school design-and-build projects (mostly human powered vehicles here in Oz), primarily because they understand that completion of a project requires a lot more than processing numbers and making pretty shapes on a computer.

Did any of you make it to Detroit? I was hoping to cross paths with some of you. If not, will any of you be coming to the FSAE West event? Sorry, I have no idea of where your school is, so I don't know if that is a ridiculous question. Anyway, if you are ever at a comp where we are competing, please come up and say hello. We'd be more than happy to help you out if we can.

Cheers, and keep up the good work,

[SeanM]

Thank you for the support Big Bird, yes we where at the proving grounds and we where able to take a bit of a look at your car, we share a lot of the same basic design of your car, unfortunately we did not get much time to talk to anyone from your team and we will not be at the west competition.

[SNasello]

Hey Carter guys, i too was hoping to see you at competition and would still like to drop by the shop. Send me an email about when would be the best day and time to stop by. (also clear it with your shop teacher). stefan.nasello@hotmail.com

Also, what schools are this years graduates planning on attending?

[mikep]

Very nice set of pictures.
I am planning to build an A Mod car along the same lines as an SAE car, and the students will fabricate and assemble some of it. We don't have any engineering classes (we are a very small and financially poor school), but all students go through a short welding program prior to entering Auto Mechanics.
I have a former student who is just graduating from Kettering, and he is going to help get the ball rolling. I can't expect the students to be self-sufficient when there isn't an established program that they can learn from.

Sean, good luck with the project. Let me know if we can help in any way, though it seems you are way ahead of us.

Michael Perry
Dorchester School of Tech
Cambridge MD

[57JoeFoMoPar]

Sean, I think it's kick ass that you guys are building a car. I'd love to see how your car squares off against a lot of the FSAE cars built by colleges and people who suppposedly know more. A good engineering sense will go so much further than some a-hole with an engineering degree and an uppity attitude.

It's incredible to see an FSAE event, with all the cars gleaming, incredible engineering, composites, state of the art engine management...and it doesn't work. Then some guys with no money and huge balls step up and are able to make something happen. Look at Lafayette at SAE West this year. First year FSAE team, small team, rolling up in box truck, just a bunch of cool ass dudes who wanted to make something happen. Their car was damn near 900 lbs...and it finished every event, enduro included. Cornell didn't even finish the enduro this year. Not to take a shot at Cornell or anyone else, but iit just goes to show you. That's something to be proud of for Lafayette. There is so much to be said for just making a simple design the just works.

It's like a hot rod 32 Ford mixing it up with an EVO or something. 2 totally different breeds that can both kick some serious ass, and i hope these high school kids get the chance to have at the big boys on the track. I think some of the major automakers can take a lesson from some backyard builders with some common sense. I say best of luck

[rehsper]

Sorry to go off topic, but in regards to building an A-Mod "FSAE" car...

The last time I looked at the SCCA rules for Solo2 I noticed something. A car running in the FSAE class needs to comply with the FSAE rules for the year the car competed. So any number of modifications would render a car ineligble. That led me to the rules for A-Mod. They state that a vehicle must have a wheelbase of at least 72inches to run in A-Mod. All this tells me that owners of FSAE cars that are altered from stock (like myself) are SOL? Please correct me if I am mistaken.

On topic content: HS students (and most everybody else too) can learn a heck of a lot about engineering just by machining, fabricating, and then using, adjusting, and fixing a car built from a plan of someone elses design. Aren't most new college FSAE team members in this boat?

--Will
'01-'04 PSU FSAE

[JerryLH3]

Will, how is your FSAE car modified? If this has been mentioned elsewhere, I apologize. Modified in your case may not automatically mean it would not have met the rules for the year it ran.

[UTA racer rikki]

Will,

I will echo Jerry here. The rules that are most important from FSAE are the restrictor, engine size, and the current aero rules. The intent of the FSAE class at Nationals is to promote more involvement of FSAE students at Nationals. So, modifications made to improve your cars performance are allowed, so long as they don't break the aero, engine, and restrictor limitations. If you have any questions about the intent of that rule, discuss it with Dr. Woods at UT Arlington. He has been the 'consultant' to SCCA about the FSAE class.

[SeanM]

Just thought i'd update you guys on whats going on. I am no longer affiliated with CSE, I have graduated and I am now making my way to Mini Baja to see what thats like.

Also after a long struggle to get SAE to agree to let CSE Join the competition, they have given up and are now moving on to different areas. So to all the people who didn't want to see CSE in the competition, your wish has been granted. To all those who wanted to see them make it, well maybe you'll end up with some of the team members working on your cars.

[A Whatmough]

Sean,

I am a high school teacher in St. thomas Ontario. Not far from you and would love to get somthing going for highschools to compete in something more then a go-cart comp. I am also very frustrated with many of the degrading comments. I think it would do them well to look at the situation differntly. The idea of the FSAE race would be far more then just who wins, it is all about giving stundents an inspiration to look deeper into the theory they have been taught. I support your desire to take what you know, what ever that may be, and to try to focus it and put it to the test. I am sure even without going to the comp, you have learned from the experience, and one day will be a Uni stundent at the comp :-).

Just as an asside, it looks like most of the negitive comments are coming for Universities that don't want to be that one that is past by the HS, be stuck trying to get their engine to start while the HS car is rolling out to start the race, have oil spew out of the back of their car onto the highschool team that is hot on thier tail or been in the finial photo with 3 tires on thier car and have the HS still have all four.

Anyway,

I would love to know what your new objectives are

[Mike Flitcraft]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">HS students (and most everybody else too) can learn a heck of a lot about engineering just by machining, fabricating, and then using, adjusting, and fixing a car built from a plan of someone elses design. Aren't most new college FSAE team members in this boat? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know I am. The most "machining" experiance I had before this year was using my cheapo drill press as a mill (and my hands as the table), and operating a brake lathe. I'm still extremely green on lathes and mills, but I'm learning plenty about different metal's properties and the machines and techniques.

I'm not new to cars, but I am new to the ground-up fabrication, even though I'm not in engineering, this program is immersed with information to soak up.

[formula_wally]

Figured I would pipe in, Leamington is my home town, but didn't go to Cardinal Carter.....

Have you guys every thought of hitching up with a more local University and getting involved in their build? Im not sure if your allowed to live in your team room all night and through weekends. That alone would make it a challenge.

[SeanM]

The last thing a university team would want is a bunch of highschool kids kicking around taking up space, so we never bothered with that, but we did have a lot of contact with the U of T team they where a great help in getting us going. Now that CSE has been declined by SAE International they are still continuing the building process but are focusing on different topics, such as a dragster and a highschool SAE competition.

[Andy K]

Too bad you were declined by SAE, but glad you went onto Univ. and working on at least some sort of SAE project.

Going back to a comment earlier, there are many high schools and colleges that have the equipment to build a university killer. I am in that position now... I postponed University to go back and do a engineering technology program. My classmates have approached me and asked if I can help re-organize the FSAE team with the goal of running a car in about 2 years and compete after testing for a year. We've got a huge manual machine shop with a few CNCs and a rapid-prototyper. Time to work on a corporate entity and find some sponsors...

[Joy Pathak]

my ex gf went to Cardinal carter.. and buncha other friends... Went to CCH myself..

goto the University of windsor now..


Eff ya.

[wooly]

G'day guys, I'm a high school teacher from Perth on the west coast of Australia. I've been involved in a local competition like Electrathon here for the last 7 years and have always wanted to build a FSAE beast with my students. We've visited UWA and their FSAE team before and it just gets the kids so fired up!

I think that a few people's opinions about not wanting HS kids at the FSAE comp show a bit of arrogance and that they are scared of being beaten by a bunch of schoolkids. I'd love to do it for FSAE-A. The reality is that you could build something not much more complex than a superkart with a 450cc-600cc engine and so long as it was reliable you had every chance of getting a top 20 finish, provided you finished the endurance event. You wouldn't get traction control programs etc on a HS car but it could shake things up a little.

Also, the comments about "this is a student design program, not just building what my teacher/professor/lecturer drew up" - from my experience with the electric cars, students need to start somewhere. If they build what I was to design first, when they get to Uni they have an idea of what is needed and what works. It allows them to learn how to manufacture parts before they have to design them as well. Sure, the car may not qualify for prizes, but who cares?

I reckon it would be great.

[vreihen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by wooly:
I think that a few people's opinions about not wanting HS kids at the FSAE comp show a bit of arrogance and that they are scared of being beaten by a bunch of schoolkids. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

More like worried that a bunch of school kids will get themselves KILLED, since FSAE is an engineering competition and I doubt the engineering skills of HS kids is adequate given the performance potential under the current formula.

As I probably have posted here before, I work for a private 4-year college. Our students wanted to build a solar car for Sunrayce many moons ago, and made a deal with the local high school's shop teacher. We didn't have any type of manufacturing facilities whatsoever. They had a full machine shop. We wanted to build a solar-powered racecar. They didn't want to make any more of the same old candle holders and bookends as HS shop projects. Seems like a match made in heaven! We did the design work, and used them like a job-shop to make the parts.

Since we met with them regularly and they had the bigger picture of what was going on, they felt like they were part of the team. On our first closed-circuit testing day, more of the high school students showed up than our own students! Oh, and if that doesn't take the cake, we didn't have to pay a dime for materials or labor. The HS students held fundraisers that covered most of the construction costs, and found sponsorship on our behalf to cover the shortage.

If you want to be part of FSAE, may I suggest contacting some teams in your area and seeing if any of them would be open to a similar arrangement? Just because the rules say that HS teams can't enter, don't assume that you can't play a useful role on someone else's team.....

[wooly]

Ok, let me clear up the 'arrogance' comment. Possibly not the best word for it. Call it protective if you will. But regardless of what competition you are talking about, in any field of endeavor, some people prefer to keep the competition in-house as it were, and opening it up to new competitors can sometimes be a little, well, scary i guess.

The last thing that we as HS teachers would want if kids getting injured in a 60hp+ race car. The rules as they stand on drivers anyway would mean it would more likely be us teachers or ex-students who would drive the thing anyway so it could conceivably be me who gets killed if the car is no good!

However Vreihen, you raise a really good point, and something I will take up with one of our local universities...

Cheers!

[Wesley]

The engineering it takes to build a racecar doesn't require a college degree. Most of what I've learned here outside of differential equations I could easily have done in high school with regular calc classes.

Sure, to get into the high-end optimizing you have to know more specifics, but most basic engineering doesn't go beyond Calc 2, especially with computers as well-used as they are now.

[SeanM]

Wesley is quite right. It does not take a university or college education to build a competitive and safe race car. Now in my second year of an engineering program hasn't shed much more light on how to build a race car, when it comes down to it like wesley said computers will take care of the more complexed calculations (Not saying that you don't need to learn it cause you do) Just saying that it is pretty stupid to say that i am more qualified to build the car now then i was then. Looking back the only things i would change on the car are things we learned while testing that didn't work to well.

[Mike Sadie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wesley:
The engineering it takes to build a racecar doesn't require a college degree. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It doesn't take a degree to build it, but it does to design it well. How can you engineer a car without knowing the fundamentals (at least) of areas like strength of materials, statics, dynamics, kinematics, machine design, thermo, etc... Sure, most of the math is calc 2 or lower and computers make the job easier. But if you can't explain (or don't know) why a larger diameter tube is stronger in bending, how would you be qualified to design a chassis?

I'm not suggesting that HS kids don't have the capacity to learn this stuff, I'm just saying it takes more than math skills. And Sean, the further you get, the more useful the material is. Granted, there are very few things directly applicable, the main exception being machine design.

On a different note, we have had a few Highschoolers come out to our shop through some program, but it is a joke. Some rich kid (wealthy area HS) comes out once, never shows up again, then submits a report to his teacher about all the "work" he did.

Mike

[Ian Scott]

Some HS kids are very able in all aspects of design and construction and are capable of qualifying with clarity the reasoning behind their design choices etc, technical knowledge and understanding is not the sole domain of university students. The secret within any good subject area is to instill the want/need to develop one's knowledge, age should not be a preventative factor. Reference to this can be viewed on the DP1 website, posting 17th February 08.

Ian Scott

[D Collins Jr]

It does not require a college degree to build, or for that matter design a racecar. I say that knowing that the dirt car I plan to drive at my local track in a few weeks was built by a man that I'm pretty sure can't spell college, much less has ever been to one.

It's not the degree that's important, but the schedule. In high school, I was taking, essentially, 35 credit hours, non-stop, every week. This semester, I'm taking 13. That's the big difference. There are other advantages time wise as well. If I fail class in college, it's almost expected. In high-school, I would have been beaten by my parents. Now I live on my own, and can make the decision to only sleep 3 or 4 hours because the frame had to get done. Can't do that as a high-school student. That's why HS FSAE isn't plausible.

[RacingManiac]

Not to mention continuity as well, since most of the kids ended up joining the Cardinal Carter effort were senior year HS student, once they graduate they are out, so you spend 1-2 years top, hard to pass on the knowledge or lesson from year to year, as you would've have in say 4-5 years of university. Also the size of the team may change quite drastically from year to year as you may or maynot get enough dedicated people each year because of the coming and graduating of the students. I know at UofT or perhaps other Univeristies as well you can at least count on a core group of people through out a 4-5 year stint...

[fade]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Now I live on my own, and can make the decision to only sleep 3 or 4 hours because the frame had to get done. Can't do that as a high-school student. That's why HS FSAE isn't plausible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hey at least you got the 3 or 4 hours. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And as long as i was quiet i could work in the garage all night in high school.

[FeX32]

I agree with Mike and the others. High school students lack fundamentals and the much knowledge needed (to put it simply). By the way, I attended that HS and was actually one of the founders of that "race car" team back when I was in HS.
P.S. Our university team just finished at Michigan international. The results are up. What a competition. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[vreihen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FeX32:
I agree with Mike and the others. High school students lack fundamentals and the much knowledge needed (to put it simply). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I recently discovered that there are a group of high schools in Wisconsin that came up with an ingenious solution to many people's concerns here:

http://www.formulahighschool.com/

By cloning a standard Formula Vee and even publishing the parts list to go shopping, they have taken all of the engineering out of the equation.....

[FeX32]

Interesting. It seems it has become more of a 'race' for them as opposed to an engineering competition for us.
Although, I see the potential benefits and positive outcomes.

[Adambomb]

Yes, very interesting solution. I think Formula Vee would be more appropriate, Formula SAE is honestly too much of an engineering competition; just wouldn't be a good fit for high school kids, no matter how smart. Even in a simple class like Formula Vee they should still have plenty of opportunities to go wild with innovation (and experience its benefits and penalties first hand).

In our high school's auto and engine class, all we did was rebuild a Briggs and Stratton lawnmower engine. I wish we had something this cool. Not to mention, you get a few high school kids who have actually built a car before...perhaps it's time to start recruiting. I know ISU's tuition is fairly attractive compared to UW...

[Wesley]

I still disagree that high school students lack the fundamentals to understand these things. They're just not that complicated.

If they have the drive that the college FSAE students do (and why wouldn't they, after all, where do the college students come from?) they'll read the same book that I did for my materials classes and learn the same things. There's nothing magical about college that allows you to learn the materials, and to say that high school students can't understand it is at the very least stupid.

I also think high school students have plenty of time. I managed a frame-off restoration in high school, I sure could have spent those 8 hours a day after school learning and building a race car if there was an outlet to do so.

[Adambomb]

I'm sticking with my guns on this one. I'm applying things I've learned in graduate level classes, and there are times I still feel I'm out-classed in FSAE. Look at the way many teams struggle with the help of their colleges, faculty advisers, or even just a bunch of old folks like me who played around in the real world a few years before coming to college. Look at the issues beyond building the car, like project management, team building, sponsorship, PR, etc; hell, it's a wonder college kids can even pull it off.

A few short years ago, all it took to get a top 10 finish in FSAE was a well-tuned, reliable vehicle that made it through endurance. We did just that in '06. But looking at how things went down at MIS last week, the competition is just getting too fierce to be a top finisher without applying the kind of engineering fundamentals that really smart high school kids don't find out until they become really smart college kids.

Imagine trying to understand Milliken or OptimumG without having taken at least a basic course in dynamics. Maybe if they spent a couple more years busting their butts in high school physics and calculus; at which point they would no longer be high school kids. Sure, high school kids could get a car built, and no doubt get it to pass tech., but they would have almost no chance at a top finish. Imagine talking to Claude in design back when you were 15. I almost wet myself when I was 27.

On the other hand, if they entered a simpler class like Formula Vee, they could get 90% of the experience, and have a really good shot at beating a lot of folks. They could apply all the rules of basic design, mechanics and fabrication without getting tangled in all the BS that goes along with an engineering competition, and have a lot of fun.

By eliminating all the higher level stuff involved with FSAE, more people would get involved. And I would try to get them all to come to ISU http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Wesley]

The physics and calculus classes I had in high school covered most of what I learned in statics and dynamics in college - in fact, I passed it based on what I remembered from high school. The biggest benefit I had was the materials class, and none of that was even particularly involved mathematically. Perhaps I'm a little skewed on my conception of the average high schooler coming from a smaller private school, but I think other than the calc-III and calc-IV classes (that students just don't have enough time to cover in high school) there isn't anything that isn't solvable with calc I and II skills you learn in HS. Even the differentials that govern damping and aerodynamics can be (and are often) reduced to algebraic equations.

Talking to the design judges was somewhat intimidating, but I don't see how age would change that. In terms of my willingness to discuss things with people obviously more knowledgeable than myself, I've always approached it with eagerness, since I know that any misconceptions I do have I can correct in simple discussion.

I agree that a simpler racing series would be easier. I do wish my high school had a racing team - any form of racing. It would have been a good primer for FSAE and saved me some of the front-loaded learning.

[FeX32]

I agree with Adambomb. A top car takes knowledge applied at the graduate level nowadays.

[Zac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FeX32:
I agree with Adambomb. A top car takes knowledge applied at the graduate level nowadays. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about that. Looking over a lot of the top level schools, I really don't see a whole lot that a dedicated undergrad (or even high school student) wouldn't be able to pull off. I think the big difference between the top teams and the middle of the pack is probably just a combination of people and resource management (knowledge and time in particular), and overall design refinement, not design fundamentals.

But if you look at most of the cars from schools that traditionally finish outside the top 30 you'll see a lot of mistakes that I don't think you even need to be an engineer to see. You'll see rod ends in bending, frame tubes in bending and torsion, etc. but you'll also see alignments way out in left field, cars that don't sound even close to running right, and some massive compliances.