Tire Testing Consortium Registration is Open!

[Denny Trimble]

The FSAE TTC is ready for everybody to register! Here's how it will work:

1) Fill out the registration form, on which you will vote for the four tires you'd like to see tested the most.

2) Rename the registration form and email it to me.

3) Send payment to Doug Milliken.

The registration form and payment instructions are on the FSAE TTC Webpage:
http://www.millikenresearch.com/fsaettc.html

Please read the entire page as it contains answers to all your likely questions.

I'd like to thank Edward Kasprzak, Dr. Bob Woods, and Doug Milliken for their work in planning and organizing this project.

Now, let's get it started!

[Denny Trimble]

The FSAE TTC is ready for everybody to register! Here's how it will work:

1) Fill out the registration form, on which you will vote for the four tires you'd like to see tested the most.

2) Rename the registration form and email it to me.

3) Send payment to Doug Milliken.

The registration form and payment instructions are on the FSAE TTC Webpage:
http://www.millikenresearch.com/fsaettc.html

Please read the entire page as it contains answers to all your likely questions.

I'd like to thank Edward Kasprzak, Dr. Bob Woods, and Doug Milliken for their work in planning and organizing this project.

Now, let's get it started!

[IsheeM]

Denny,
Good job. This surely is exciting. This will make for a much more advanced generation of race engineers thats for sure.

Thanks,

[Brian Smith]

"3. Depending on workload, I hope that we will be able to process the tire data into our nondimensional coefficient form and make it available to the FSAE TTC members. This would include a small (Matlab?) program to expand the coefficients back into data for plotting or for use in other analysis. See Race Car Vehicle Dynamics (and Race Car Vehicle Dynamics: Problems, Answers and Experiments) Chapter 14 for more details. "

Will this be anything like the format the Goodyear data was in?

[RiNaZ]

hey denny,
just wondering for all the international teams out there (especially for the SE Asian countries) who cannot afford the tyre testing fees, do they have any other means in getting the data, maybe something like a small amount of fee for each type of data?

[RagingGrandpa]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Longitudinal Force tests cannot be run on 10" rims due to limitations of the Calspan test machine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Where does this leave teams running 10" wheels/tires?

[Denny Trimble]

To answer the questions so far:

Brian:
Yes, I believe this would be similar to the Goodyear data of forces vs. slip angles / slip ratios.

RiNaZ:
We have to keep the contribution level at $500, and there won't be any discounts because we're all FSAE teams raising money the hard way.

RacingGrandpa:
This is an unfortunate limitation of the test equipment, but there's nothing we can do about it. The lateral force data by itself will be invaluable, and is probably more important than the longitudinal data. We will still get lateral force vs. slip angle data at multiple cambers and pressures (depending on where they are in the Tier structure). I don't know how well you will be able to extrapolate longitudinal performance of the 10's from the data we get from 13's, but that might be an option as well.

As another comment, only teams who submit their payment and registration forms by April 30th will be able to "vote" on their favorite four tires. So, hurry up and send your money! So far, only the University of Washington has registered.

[aweather]

Denny,

I am very interested! However I am running R17 Hoosier DOT tires on my car. That's a common tire in FSAE right?

Just kidding, very cool idea though. So you will test only the most popular tire?

Alex

[Denny Trimble]

Hey Alex! How's the M3 looking these days? Do you want those Hoosiers in 17" or 18" rim sizes?

We're going to test the most popular tire sizes that we can afford. So, if more teams send money, we can test more tires. I expect that 4-5 different constructions will be tested.

[aweather]

The M3 is good. Getting ready for my first club race in May, I'm very excited. 17" for now.

Anyways I don't want to hijack this thread so I'll write you an email.

It's really great that you are organizing this, access to tire data in invaluable!

[Kevin_Bray]

Georgia Tech will be registering soon. Since I can't pay by credit card, it will take me a while to get cash out of the finance office.

Am I reading correctly that I can't back my PayPal account with a credit card, or Doug Milliken will be charged a fee?

[Denny Trimble]

Yes, that's correct. If you back your paypal account with a checking account, there won't be any fees involved.

If someone were to try to pay through paypal with a credit card, then paypal takes a fee (~3%) out of the transaction, and Doug Milliken receives less than $500 from your team. And, we don't want to have to deal with that.

[Denny Trimble]

I have an update:
Unfortunately, PayPal will only allow $500/month of incoming funds on a "free" account, so Doug Milliken will no longer be able to receive paypal payments from teams.

Please see the payment page for options 2 and 3, electronic transfer and mailing a check.

Sorry for the inconvenience.

[Ché]

Denny-

On the registration form when it asks us to select our tire choices do we get 3 or 4 choices (is the other included as a 4th?). Also is there any weighting to the choices, or are they all equally valued?

I guess I should ask if the same tire can be choosen more than once.

[Denny Trimble]

Che',
You get four choices, they were filled out with "default" values to show how you would select an "Other" tire such as an Avon.

The tire selection will be equally weighted. We haven't discussed it in detail, but I believe will be a simple rank of votes. The number of tires we can test is also up in the air until more teams send money.

[Ché]

not to nit pick too much but if we get 4 votes, can they all go to one tire (because we really want 10"s tested), or 2 votes each to 2 tires??

[Cement Legs]

The 10" thing is a limitation on the wheel size that the machine can hold if I understand things correctly so I dont think 4 E6 votes will help http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Denny Trimble]

I'll have to check on the multiple-votes per tire thing. I'll get back to you in a day or two.

The only limitation on the 10's is that we can't get longitudinal data. They can still be tested for lateral and vertical data.

[jack]

something is better than nothing i guess...

[Denny Trimble]

OK, more updates:

-Multiple votes per tire is OK, so go for it. If any of the registered teams would like to re-do their votes based on this clarification, send me another spreadsheet.

-We've received 7 registration forms as of this morning! The details of the voting are on my website (http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/tiretesting/index.shtml), in HTML and XLS formats.

-Remember to send your payment before the April 30th deadline if you'd like your tire votes to count. The registration form doesn't mean anything if you haven't paid up http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-For those who really want to see 10's tested, the rank is:
1) Hoosier 20x6-13
2) Hoosier 20x7-13
3) Goodyear 20x6.5-13
4-5 Tie, Hoosier 18x6-10, Goodyear 18x6.5-10

Operators are standing by, so send money now!

-Denny

[Denny Trimble]

We're up to 8 teams, but that's only about 1/4 of what we need to buy this testing time. Remember, the deadline for submitting payment if you want your votes to count is April 30th.

I know most teams don't have much money after competition is over, so please encourage your team captains to register now!

[Denny Trimble]

I received 3 more registrations, bringing us to 11 teams total.

I've updated the registration page, and added a bar graph for us visual learners, to see which tires are in the lead for votes.

Check it out here. (http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/tiretesting/TTC_Reg.htm)

There were 39 teams interested earlier, let's see those teams step up and register!

[fsae racer]

We are still interested, but we are also still working out a payment method with school funds. All our credit cards are just about maxed out, except for a few which we will ringing up in the middle of may. Damn gas bill is gonna be outrageous this year.

[rjwoods77]

Same here Denny. Paperwork is rolling. Just waiting for approval.

[alfordda]

The Avon website does not show a 20x6.2-13, is this a mistake in the spreadsheet or the Avon website?

[DJHache]

Daniel, the avon website has a 520x160-13 radial tire (in metric).

[Denny Trimble]

In the "other" category, I just post what people send me http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[alfordda]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJHache:
Daniel, the avon website has a 520x160-13 radial tire (in metric). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess I didn't look there since I thought everyone was running bias tires. Now I understand.

[Kevin_Bray]

http://www.avonracing.com/frames.htm

Click on race tires, then crossply and 6.2/20-13 is about 2/3 of the way down. We ran these my freshman in the 2003 detoit compeition.

This post also serves as a bump for this thread. Register before it's too late.

[alfordda]

Well, now it just looks like I'm lazy and didn't look far enough down the page. Do you know if they still make that tire, because I don't think our sponsor mentioned that one?

[James Waltman]

Mostly a bump.

I'm still trying to sort out the money for us. Hopefully it will be done in the next few days.

[Patrick W. Crane]

Uvic will be in early next week

[Denny Trimble]

I've updated the registered teams spreadsheet again. Things are getting interesting with the multiple votes per tire per team option. Here it is. (http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/tiretesting/)

We're up to $5000, well on the way to our goal. Of course, the more money we get, the more tires we test and in more detail.

Teams can request changes in their voting if they want to put multiple votes on a certain tire. Contact me by email.

[IsheeM]

Denny,
I emailed you our votes. Let me know if you dont get it.

[Denny Trimble]

Updated again, we're at 16 teams, 10 received payments. Keep them coming!

[Brian Smith]

Hey WWU. Why do you want goodyear 10" tires so bad. Seems like Hoosier is the brand of choice in 13's. The 10's have the same compounds as the 13's right?

[syoung]

Isn't that what we're trying to find out, Bryan? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The compound is the same but I know that a year or two ago the construction was different (13s used kevlar; 10s didn't).

We've narrowed our voting choices down to, er, 6. Decisions by committee are always a bad thing (until you make the wrong decision, anyway).

[James Waltman]

For our first 5 cars we ran Hoosier 10"�. For our last car we switched to the Goodyear 10"�. It was mostly a guess. So now we have a bunch of Goodyear 10"� tires around here and the next car will have them too. Why is Hoosier the brand of choice for the 13"�? It can't be because everyone has data that shows they are better. I know that some teams have done comparison testing but I bet it is still largely a guess.

I threw all of our votes to one tire because I really want to see what the 10"� tires do in the testing. I knew that the 13"� tires would get most of the votes so we're kind of voting for the underdog – trying to make the biggest difference.

It surprises me that all of the teams running the 13"� tires don't want to know what the 10"� tires are capable of. We want the data anyway but it will be a shame if we don't get data for a 10"�. Maybe I can talk some teams into switching a vote or two. Who knows - Goodyear 10"� tires could be magical...

[Patrick W. Crane]

For us the 13s allow the uprights, hubs and brakes to be completely contained inside the wheel giving us longer a-arms and "better"(the way we want) packaging. I guess there are weight advantages but 13 offer what we feel are outweighing advantages. So, being that our choice of 13s is based on non grip related issues, we don't really care how 10s grip.

that being said, if for some reason it is discovered that 10s grip way better, we will have to do some serious rethinking.

[Ché]

We have pretty much got past the packaging issues of using the 10" tires, and assume that the polar moment is better for them (although we need to test this). Given this reasons we think they are at least on par with the 13"s and could be better, we don't really know though and so we would like to have them tested to find out. Also the Goodyear data for the 10" pretty much uses a different size tire for most of the data, so it is hard to know how far off our tires are from their data (assuming it is accurate anyway).

Also the Goodyear data show that at a 100lbs of normal force the 10s can make about 300lbs of lateral force (i think slip angle is about 5-8, and camber is -1). I know our cars with driver are a little heavier, and there is weight transfer as well, but if I'm not mistaken that is around 2-3g lateral acceleration. Not all of the other GoodYear data shows quite the same high coefficient of friction numbers, and we were assumuing that they had consistency at least with their own data.

19.5x6.5-10 (http://www.racegoodyear.com/pdf/sae/195x65/page14.pdf)
(the data we are supposed to use for the 18x6.5-10)

vs

20x8-13 (http://www.racegoodyear.com/pdf/sae/20x80/page38.pdf)

[Ché]

Hey Denny, could you somehow modify the graph of votes to show the difference between votes that are paid (and will count) versus the votes that have not yet been paid (and may not count).

Thanks for you work on this project.

[Garlic]

The big question is why is the Hoosier 13x7" tire in third place?? It was only the tire used by all top five finishers last year in detroit!

[Denny Trimble]

Well, it's not in 3rd place any more http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Check It Out (http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/tiretesting/TTC_Reg.htm)

That's 21 teams registered, and almost all have indicated "the check is in the mail". I'll update it again when I hear from Doug Milliken on the finance side of things.

Thanks to everyone for joining! And as a reminder, we have to receive your money by April 30th for your votes to count. You can still join and get the data after that date, though.

[Travis Garrison]

I guess its time for a little rable rousing...Denny's gonna hate me for this...

I just took a look at the graph and I'm a little disapointed to see that the 10's are lagging behind...testing two hoosiers and a set of goodyears within a 1" width range seems like a waste of money...I know, I know...different compounds...but still...

If we're only going to get one shot at this it seems like the smart thing to do would be to get the broadest (albeit fuzzy) picture possible so that we don't end up with the 10" tires remaing a total unknown...

WWU, UTA and the rest of the schools interested in 10's, if you'd just consolidate your votes and settle on one brand you could sneak a 10 into the test...

-Travis Garrison

[Denny Trimble]

I agree, Travis. I'd recommend Hoosiers if people want 10's tested. We've done back-to-back testing of Hoosier and Goodyear 13's, and the compound difference is a big deal, especially in colder weather. We did skidpad runs with a sweep of camber and pressures, and the Hoosiers had the top 75% of the lap times.

Feel free to send me adjustments to your voting.
-Denny

[James Waltman]

That is what I was trying to do by throwing all of our votes to the Goodyear 10"�. It was in the lead already.

Can I talk anyone else into switching votes to the Goodyear 10"� with us?
UTA, Tennessee Tech, Dartmouth, UIUC - would you guys be willing to switch from the Hoosier?
How about some of the teams with votes for Avon? Those seem kind of wasted now.
How about some of the teams that have multiple votes for the Hoosier 20x7-13 (Auburn, Cornell, Cal Poly Pamona). That one is clearly in the lead now so what's it hurt to help out the 10"� cause.

If it comes down to it we would switch our votes to the Hoosier just to get a 10"� in the test (some 10"� data – even if it is Hoosier – is better than none).

Denny,
I know that you guys are confident that the 13"� Hoosiers are better but I don't want to assume that makes the 10"� Hoosiers better. That's the point of the testing.
But beggars can't be choosers.

So, who's with me?

[Denny Trimble]

I don't think construction differences can overcome the compound advantage Hoosiers have. The R25A compound is used on every modified-class autocross car I've seen; check out last year's A-Mod results at Nationals:
http://ww2.scca.com/soloresults.php?ID=81

The BM, CM, DM results are the same; 90% Hoosiers, with Goodyears at the bottom if present.

What makes you lean toward the Goodyears?

If you guys want to test 10" Goodyears, that's fine, it's just not where my votes are going http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Travis Garrison]

I know exactly why we choose goodyears when I was there...the sidewalls were supposed to be stiffer and the goodyear compound was relatively new and from what we had heard much soft/stickier...that and the profile is slightly narrower (don't ask).

But I think Denny is right...the Hoosier's are probably a better bet...

-Travis Garrison

[Marshall Grice]

We currently run the 18x7.5x10 hoosiers and i know from talking to jeff speer that they changed the construction of the 10's to the c2000 spec. He says that it's a kevlar belt vs. nylon therefore much stiffer. After the competition we purchased a set of r35 c2000's. we were running the r25a's of the old construction before that. We actually saw an improvement in our friction circle of about .2g's after switching to the r35's. We haven't had a chance to switch back to r25 c2000's to see if they also perform better. I am still quite puzzled, as i would expect the performance to drop off with the harder compound. oh well, we didn't even vote for a 10" tire for testing. I guess if enough teams sign up we might find out the answer.

[rjwoods77]

We are still waiting on approval but it is almost done. Our school moves at a snails pace. Once we do get it(before the deadline) we are gunna put 4 votes on the hossier 18x6-10. I hope to hell we get these tested because who the hell uses goodyear anyway.

[syoung]

It's starting to look unlikely we'll get our payment processed and through to you guys before the deadline, so it will have to follow in a week or so and not influence the votes. However, we're trying to choose between 10s and 13s for next year and want data! With things as they stand, we would be putting all four votes on a 10" Hoosier, ideally the 6", if we got our money there in time.

I can confirm/reiterate what Marshall says about tyre construction, having heard it from Hoosier's UK importer. The new kevlar structure on the 10s, which they only used to use for their 13" tyres, is meant to be much stiffer than the old construction.

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Hi all,

I've been following the discussion regarding voting for tires. I'd just like to reiterate that our intention is to provide at least some data on all the "popular" tires. The more teams that sign-up the more funding we'll have to get more data on more tires. While we will have limitations, we'll do our best to provide as much data as we can. We will definitely be testing at least one 10" tire. At least four different tires will be tested--and likely more than that. Denny, Dr. Woods and I have had discussions about how to get the most data on the most tires. Calspan TIRF is supportive of our testing and will help where they can. While it's inevitable we're not going to make everyone happy, the vast majority of you should be pleased with the results.

Thanks for all your support to this point. As the deadline for registration with voting rights draws near hopefully we'll get even more teams on-board. I'll be meeting with TIRF in early May to start detailed planning of the tests based on the finances available.

Less than a month until competition in Detroit. Good luck to everyone!

Edward

[James Waltman]

I'm just trying to keep this one near the top. It would be nice if we could make it permanently stay at the top (sticky?).

I don't really have any attachment to the Goodyear tires. I'm just interested in them because they're what we have now – (thanks to Travis). If Rob's votes come through in time we'll probably switch to the Hoosier.

[Nick McNaughton]

Denny, interesting results there with the skidpan testing. We're yet to do a serious Hoosier test, but the Goodyear can produce incredible results in some conditions that would take some beating. Were you doing that test on the Hoosier 20x7?

Cheers,
Nick

[Denny Trimble]

Nick,
Yes, the test was Hoosier 20x7-13 R25A vs. Goodyear 20x6.5-13 R065. The weather was around 60 degrees F, maybe colder. It was a couple years ago, I don't remember that well http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We have been able to overheat the Hoosiers in 80 degree weather, and I think the Goodyears might do better in those conditions. The Hoosiers just don't like getting over 140F or so.

[Nick McNaughton]

Denny,
Thanks for that. I doubt the Goodyear compound is any better at higher temps, we've found them a difficult tyre to look after in an enduro setup. The compound is too picky, wears rapidly if you get anything wrong and sometimes the wear bars are cut a little deep. We had a great day chasing a changing balance that got traced back to a tyre that ran out of rubber but still looked like it had a fair bit left. The problems are as much construction issues as compound, but if you get everything right it seems to work pretty well.

Our payment should be "in the mail" as soon as this afternoon, so I hope that means our preferences get included...

Cheers,
Nick

[Denny Trimble]

I've received about 10 more registration forms, but I'm crazy busy at the moment. I'll update the spreadsheet this weekend, hopefully.

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

...and Doug Milliken is out of town for a few days so payment information will not be updated right away either.

If you have any questions regarding payments please let me know.

Edward

[Denny Trimble]

OK, I've updated the registered teams spreadsheet again:

Clicky Clicky (http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/tiretesting/TTC_Reg.htm)

Looks like the 10" votes are still split between Hoosier 18x6-10 and Goodyear 18x6.5-10. And, there is significant interest in the 20x7.5-13 Hoosiers and 20x8-13 Goodyears.

[rjwoods77]

Hey Denny,

I answered your email and i will do it again here. We would like all 4 of our votes on the hoosier 18x6-10's.

[Denny Trimble]

OK, got those changes updated Rob.

[Denny Trimble]

OK, I've updated the registered teams spreadsheet, and we're now past the voting deadline. We're at 29 teams now, but we'll only count the votes of those whose payment was received (or maybe postmarked...) by 4/30/05.

I mixed up UWA's votes, they're corrected now.

The tires that obviously come out on top are the Hoosier 20x6-13, 20x7-13, 18x6-10, and Goodyear 20x6.5-13. Down at the next level are the Goodyear 20x8-13, 18x6.5-10, and Hoosier 20x7.5-13.

Thanks for joining, everyone!
-Denny

[jack]

thanks for doing this denny. its really cool to see this go from an internet discussion to reality. hopefully now FSAE will more closely resemble "real" racing. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Hi all,

We'll be updating the financial spreadsheet in a day or two--we're going to wait a few days for those "the check is in the mail" to come in. Looks like we'll have just under $15000 to spend at TIRF, which should go pretty far.

Of course, schools can still sign-up. Voting on tires will be capped at this point so we can start finalizing our test plan and other discussions with TIRF.

Thanks to everyone who joined. See you in Detroit.

Edward

[Denny Trimble]

A quick update on money received recently, more to follow later this week.

Dude, you got like 3 feet of air that time! (http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/tiretesting/TTC_Reg.htm)

[jack]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Denny Trimble:
A quick update on money received recently, more to follow later this week.

Dude, you got like 3 feet of air that time! (http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/tiretesting/TTC_Reg.htm) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yesssssssssssssssssssssss!

[Charlie]

Denny-

A suggestion: Can you weigh all the tires you test? Advertised weights seem to be pretty unreliable, and even tire to tire variation can be big. if you could weigh the tires this would be easy to do and good information for comparison.

Sorry if this was already the plan....

[Nick McNaughton]

If you're really keen, moment inertias would would be pretty damn cool too... Perhaps easiest using the Claude method by strapping a weight to the tyre and timing the oscillation period when it's all mounted up on the rig ... then do one without a tyre and subtract the rig's inertia. As I said, you'd have to be keen.

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Charlie,

When the tire test is run, it starts with the tire suspended above the belt (the "roadway"). As such, the balance should be weighing the tire/wheel assembly at this point. I haven't looked for weight data before, but as long as we start recording before the tire contacts the belt we should be able to extract tire/wheel weights from the data stream. We can weigh the wheels separately to determine the tire weights.

I've got a note to make sure this gets into the test plan. It's a worthwhile addition.

Thanks,
Edward

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Nick,

Moments of inertia are good to know, too, but as you suggested you don't need TIRF to do this. Hanging the tire at the end of a long rod is the way to go. I'm not sure the machine can give us this info. Of course, the reason to suggest it is that we'll have a nice collection of tires which any individual team won't have. I made (another) note to myself--maybe TIRF can do this for us? Hmmm...I'll look into it.

Edward

[James Waltman]

Weight and inertia of tires only would be great.

The TTC page (http://www.millikenresearch.com/fsaettc.html) lists "Overturning Moments"� as one of the test outputs. Is there a difference between Overturning Moments and Moment Inertias.

[jack]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Charlie:
Denny-

A suggestion: Can you weigh all the tires you test? Advertised weights seem to be pretty unreliable, and even tire to tire variation can be big. if you could weigh the tires this would be easy to do and good information for comparison.

Sorry if this was already the plan.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i have found over .25lbs difference between two goodyear 6.5x10, (same compound) tires.

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

James,

Overturning Moment is one of the six forces and moments on a tire. The forces are Longitudinal Force (X), Lateral Force (Y) and Normal Load (Z). The moments are Overturning Moment (about X-axis), Spin Axis Torque (about Y-axis) and Aligning Torque (aobut Z-axis).

The overturning moment exists because the center of the pressure distribution in the footprint does not typically coincide with the center of the print. There is usually some lateral offset (which can become very large with high camber). Since the SAE tire axis system's origin is located at the center of the footprint, specifying the normal load at this location necessitates the use of overturning moment.

The moments of inertia are the ones used, for example, in Newton's second law: F=ma for linear motion and T=I(alpha) for rotational motion. They're the "I" in this equation.

For what it's worth, definitions of standard vehicle dynamics terms are given in SAE J670E "Vehicle Dynamics Terminology". It's not exactly thrilling to read but it's definitely a good resource to have within reach....

Edward

[ben]

Maybe one for Edward, but is the testing of the same tyre on different rim widths being considered? I'd be interested to see the relative effects on cornering stiffness of pressure and rim width.

Probably a bit late in the day but just a thought.

Ben

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Ben,

I met with Dave at TIRF yesterday to start running some hard numbers for our test. We talked about looking at the effect of rim width as an additional test. I know it's of interest, and it's an outside possibility that we'll run a test or two to gauge the effect. Of course, it all comes down to finances. We've got a nice group of teams already signed-up. We'll see how much more interest I can raise in Detroit today and tomorrow. More teams = more $ = more testing = more value for everyone.

Say, Dunlop wouldn't want to invest $500 to get a whole bunch of tire data, would they? It's the best deal going--we welcome anyone who pays the registration fee (FSAE team or not). Compared to an FSAE budget, $500 out of Dunlop's budget would be positively insignificant http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Edward

[ben]

Maybe, it's got to be quicker than FE methods :-)

Ben

[Ché]

mostly a bump, but what is the current state of this now that we are all home from Detroit?

[Denny Trimble]

Sorry for the delay in updates since before Detroit, but I'm busy getting things done at the end of the quarter. I'll have an update early next week, and I'll reply to all the teams who've sent me emails.

[Denny Trimble]

OK, I've updated the registered teams spreadsheet:
http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/tiretesting/TTC_Reg.htm (make sure to "refresh" your browser or it will look a little funny)

Of note, the tire voting deadline has passed, so I've placed "x" marks where teams numerical votes once were, if those teams didn't submit payment by the 4/30 deadline.

Also, as some of you may know, Goodyear has a new tire out, the 20x7.0-13 R065, which some teams were running (Wisconsin-Madison did very well with them). The teams that run this tire suggest it is much better than the previous 6.5 width, due to a new construction.

Does anyone object to substitution of the 7.0 for the 6.5 in our testing?

Edward has met with the CALSPAN folks and they are working on a date and financial agreement. It's looking like late June or July for the testing, but I'll let Edward update us when the official word comes in.

Do any teams have 10" wheels we can use for the testing? I remember Jack from WWU offered some 10's, but I think there was a question as to whether we could actually use them for the testing.

-Denny

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Hi all,

Here's an update:

1. We're waiting on Calspan upper management to finalize our agreement. We're trying for Tier 1 testing of the 7 most popular tires with the funds available.

2. The testing has been moved from the week of 6/20 to the week of 7/18. Expect this new date to be the final date.

3. Dr. Bob Woods has got the tire-supply end lined-up. We are in need of 10" rims if anyone has a set we can borrow for the testing. The University at Buffalo is supplying 13" rims.

I'll keep you posted on further developments.

Edward

[Dave M]

Cal Poly Pomona may have an extra set of kaizers. Splined, and direct mount. Its finals week but I'll try and get more info by the end of the week.

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Hi all,

Calspan upper management has approved our test program. We're getting a price break in the neighborhood of 33-50%. The top 7 tires will be tested at Tire 1. I expect a signed contract by the end of the week.

We need 10" wheels for the tests. If you have an unused set we need to talk, ASAP. Cal Poly Pomona, what bolt pattern and offset are your 10s?

Testing will take place 7/18-7/20 at Calspan in Buffalo, NY. There's always a chance the test will be set back due to mechanical problems at TIRF, but 7/18 is now a firm date.

Contact me if you want to attend the test. There's not a whole lot of space in the control room, but we can accomodate a certain number of visitors. Now that we have a set date and the project is approved you can start planning a visit if you're interested.

Edward

[Marshall Grice]

We have some 4x100 10x7(i think) unknown offset wheels. they are the old spun keiser wheels which are pretty flexable. If anyone else has something stiffer I would recommend not using our super soft wheels. However if it comes down to it let us know.

[Denny Trimble]

I've updated the registered teams page again:
http://students.washington.edu/dennyt/fsae/tiretesting/TTC_Reg.htm

We've decided to take into account the votes of all teams who have sent us money thus far. We're coming to a final decision this week on the test structure. It looks like we'll get a lot of data on a lot of tires, but I can't say more than that until we finalize the test plan.

Thanks to everyone for joining, and thanks to Edward Kasprzak, Dr. Bob Woods, and Doug Milliken for helping to organize and administer this project!

I can't wait to update my simulations with better data... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Lyn Labahn UW-Madison]

Any chance of getting the new Goodyear 20x7x13 on the list? It is a new tire, there was a certain school that placed 3rd with these......

[Denny Trimble]

Dr. Woods is going to ask when he calls them up to get tires for the test. When I called last week to ask for the set we won in endurance, Adam Tubbs said they don't have any of the new 7's, but in a couple months they will (after the testing...).

That's all I know about it. I suppose if any teams had a fresh set or two laying around, we could figure out how to get them tested.

Does anyone know if Goodyear plans to keep producing the 6.5 along with the 7.0 (13" rim) next year?

[Nick McNaughton]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Denny Trimble:
Does anyone object to substitution of the 7.0 for the 6.5 in our testing?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd suggest another option might be substituting the new 7.0 for the 20x8.0, if the 7 is available for testing. There's a few reasons - the 8" has fewer votes, far fewer teams run them and a few teams have tested with them and found better options. Also, the 6.5 v 7.0 data could be very interesting, given that it seems the top 7 tires will get tier-1 testing. Even though we've run 8" Goodyears in the past, we'd do our voting a little differently given another chance...

[Juan Andres]

Do participating teams receive some sort of receipt once the fee is paid?

We are very interested in the tests, however our college requires us to justify expenses with a receipt.

[Kerry]

At the bottom of the TTC site under the section about finances and registration is a link to a quote:
http://www.millikenresearch.com/FSAE_TTC_Quote.pdf

This with a bank statement/money order recipt should be enough... at least it was for Drexel.

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

For most schools, the spreadsheet listing FSAE TTC finances on the web has been sufficient. For schools which have required a receipt or invoice, we have been providing one. When you register, send us an e-mail indicating you require a receipt. We'll get one to you once funds arrive.

Edward

[ben]

Just out of interest, which tyre models are going to have the data fitted to them? I would guess MRA ND tyre and Pacjeka MF-2005 for ADAMS.

Ben

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Ben,

You asked about tire models that will be fit to the data. MRA has stated they will be providing a model of the data in their MRA Nondimensional Tire Model. We are currently in discussion with a second possible model provider...sorry, can't say more than that right now.

The really nice part is that registered teams will get the model AND the raw data. You'll be able to see how well different models fit (and in what regimes their strengths and weaknesses are).

Edward

[ben]

It's good to hear that the raw data will be sent out with the model fits. Pacejka has some aspects that are often simply inappropriate for certain characteristics that you see in the raw data.

Ben

(Fitting Calspan data today...)

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

GOOD NEWS!!!

We now have a signed contract with Calspan. They came through with a significant price break as had been discussed. We will be testing 7-8 constructions (eight if time permits), all at Tier 1. The online finances spreadsheet and website will be updated in a day or two.

Testing will take place July 27-29. A DVD with raw data, test video, and at least one model of the data will be distributed to registered teams approximately one week after the test concludes. I will be in touch with all registered teams to arrange for delivery.

Thanks again to everyone who's on-board! If you're not on-board and want to join-in, information and registration instructions can be found at:

http://www.millikenresearch.com/fsaettc.html

Edward

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Hi all,

Things are looking good for the FSAE TTC tire tests at Calspan late this week. We'll be testing Wednesday, Thursday and Friday. Registered teams can expect data in one-two weeks afterward.

Edward

[rjwoods77]

So I stopped by calspan after work to check out what was going on. Pretty impressive machine. Met Josh from UIUC. Nice guy. Traded funny stories with Doug Millikan. Watched hoosier and goodyear tires getting 450lb load placed on them. Looked like a fat person sat on a donut. Was funny watching the tires nearly getting ripped off the rims when cambered/steered. The tires after running had melted rubber on them that had the consistancy of really warm duct tape glue that doesnt come off your hands. Also reminded them to weigh the tires as they forgot so that will be provided in the data. Did some quick weighing of my own since we all disagree on what weighs what. This is unoffical because i did it real quick but:

hoosier:

18x6-10 : 8.8lbs
20x6-13: 9.7lbs

goodyear:

20x6-13: 10.5lbs
20x7-13(the really new compound): 10.7lbs

I am pretty sure that is what edward and I read off the scales. Calspan is no joke.

[RickyRacer]

Since you gave the weight of the new goodyear compound, does that imply that it is being tested also?

[Denny Trimble]

The "new" goodyear is the 20x7-13 R065 (same compound as the "old" 6.5's), or so I'm told.

So, it's a new construction, not a new compound.

[B Hise]

I havent been following this whole post so pardon me if I'm repeating a question. Can a team pay the $500 for the data later on?

Bryan Hise
UMD

[Charlie]

I'm glad you remembered to weigh the tires Rob. Your weights seem about inline with what I remember. But did you weigh several tires or just one (maybe you only had one?). Asking because we've seen pretty big variances and it'd be nice to have an average. Also, was it before or after the test.

[Denny Trimble]

Yes, teams can join at any point and receive the data. So, if you follow the registration and payment instructions on the official website:
http://www.millikenresearch.com/fsaettc.html

Then you'll get data, and we'll have money to test more tires or look at different parameters next time.

[rjwoods77]

I just weighed one because of time. The weights of tires will be included with data so youll get it soon. Just intersting that you can lose almost 8 lbs off the car just switching to 10 inch tires plus what ever rim weight you drop. Substantial weight loss from my eyes. It will be interesting to compare the data between the 13's and the 10's to see what real advantages and disadvantages there are between them.

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Hi all,

Day Two of testing at Calspan went well. One more day tomorrow.

We've been able to negotiate another day of testing on the current contract to follow sometime later this year. By then we may have some Avons to test (Dr. Woods has been working hard, but Avon has been less cooperative than Goodyear or Hoosier).

We are also now able to announce that Mike Stackpole of Stackpole Engineering Services will be providing TTC members with Pacejka/Adams models of the data. (Details to follow later.) This in addition to the Nondimensional Tire Model already to be provided by Milliken Research and, of course, the raw data.

There's one more day of testing tomorrow. I'll let you know how it goes.

Edward

[ben]

Is the raw data in Tydex format? I'm currently writing Tydex 1.3 import and post
processing tools in Matlab and would be happy to pass them on to anyone wanting
to look at the raw data in more detail.

CALSPAN splits our data into Fy_pure and F_combined and my scripts reads in all
the files and divides off the Fx_pure data and stores the whole lot in a single
Matlab structure. My plotting routines then talk to the structure.

Ben

[RagingGrandpa]

Hungry for data...

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

FSAE TTC Registrants,

Testing was completed on Friday. Right now Calspan is performing some post-test reduction of the data. Stackpole Engineering Services and Milliken Research Associates are fitting their models to the tire data. I expect to mail DVDs containing the raw data, the tire models, photos of the tires and videos of the tests by the end of next week (8/12).

Edward

[Dick Golembiewski]

If I'm able to judge again next year, I'll eagerly await the data - and as importantly, discussion of what the individual teams have done with it!

- Dick

[Marc Jaxa-Rozen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">We are also now able to announce that Mike Stackpole of Stackpole Engineering Services will be providing TTC members with Pacejka/Adams models of the data. (Details to follow later.) This in addition to the Nondimensional Tire Model already to be provided by Milliken Research and, of course, the raw data. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could you tell us what model is used for the Pacejka data, e.g. '89, '94 or MF-Tire?

Thanks,

Marc Jaxa-Rozen
École Polytechnique de Montréal

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

When I talked with Mike Stackpole we discussed 94, 96 and MF-Tyre. I'm not sure which one he's settled on. Right now he's working on modeling the data (as is Milliken Research). I still hope to get DVDs mailed at week's end to FSAE TTC members.

Edward

[BenoJ]

I am anxiously awaiting the data and was wondering if there was an update on the status of the DVD's.

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

The DVDs are still waiting on the Stackpole model and the Calspan decals. The new target is Monday for shipment. I'm as anxious as anyone to get these out the door....

Edward

[Juan Andres]

Any news?

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Good news!

DVDs are being burned as we speak and will be shipped tomorrow.

Edward

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Hi all,

DVDs have been shipped to all FSAE TTC registrants who have paid the $500 registration fee in full. Our website (http://www.millikenresearch.com\fsaettc.html) contains a spreadsheet of finances which lists those schools who have paid. Your DVD should arrive within the next week.

The DVD contains a file "DVD_Contents.PDF". Please look there for a guide to what's on the disk.

And, of course, your questions and comments are always welcome.

Edward

[saf]

Has anyone received their DVD? I have yet to receive Iowa State's.

Thanks.

-Soren Faaborg
Iowa State University
sfaaborg at iastate dot edu

[RichE]

I have not received Cardiff Universities copy either but we did have a problem with our payment which might have delayed things.

Richard Elliott
Cardiff Racing

[alfordda]

I know that Cincy got theirs about a week and a half ago.

[rjwoods77]

Some of the teams still owe money (like 10 bucks) because they didnt send enough on the exchange from payment deals with banks and such. If you dont have it and you did something like that then email ttc. I know edward was saying that some of the oversees teams were skanked by the bank for additional charges that put them under the required amount.

[CMURacing - Prometheus]

we received ours yesterday (9/13).

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Rob,

We're on top of our finances, thank you. We've worked with all the teams that were shorted by various banks and resolved all these issues. A DVD has been mailed to all paid teams.

By the way, Iowa reports getting theirs today--it was semi-lost within their University. If you haven't gotten yours, do a little detective work in your engineering department mailroom first.

By the way, it's a *data* DVD and probably will not play directly on your TV, even though it has videos on it.

Edward

[Captain Redbeard]

Edward, What type of files are those video files? I'm having troule figuring out how to play them on my mac.

Thanks

[Marshall Grice]

drag and drop them into a dvd player program. they'll work fine.

[CMURacing - Prometheus]

ahh! another mac user!

mplayer os x works well.

[Captain Redbeard]

Thanks guys! Yeah, I love Macs. I just wish people would make engineering programs for them. Oh well...

[Lukin]

Got my copy of Racecar Engineering today. Congrats to the organisers of the TTC, very professionaly done, hope it gives you guys a good edge.

Well done!

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Thanks!

[Lukin]

You should throw on a Dunlop 17 inch tyre next http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[RobCMT]

Is it still possible to purchase the TTC Data?? I seem to be unable to contact the organisers via email.

ta

Rob.

[Denny Trimble]

Yes, we've all been a little busy lately. I'll try to get to your email soon http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
-Denny

[RobCMT]

no worries at all,

i forget it is 'crunch' time for you guys over there, here in FSAE-A we are aimlessly cruising around until the 'oh-shit' period kicks in a month or two from now.

[Jersey Tom]

Ahh, the 'oh-shit' period. We know it well!