GT12 Turbo question

[The guru of guru's]

Hey all,
Has anyone tried removing weight from their turbo....like machining the snails down? Would it be ok to do so?
Cheers
Dave.

[The guru of guru's]

Hey all,
Has anyone tried removing weight from their turbo....like machining the snails down? Would it be ok to do so?
Cheers
Dave.

[powered by wattard]

Ghost, we removed some weight by welding the wastegate closed and removing the actuator. No problems with the turbo so far but not sure about the engine.

On a serious note, not sure if your going to save much weight by machining the snails, the compressor side is made out of cast alum and is pretty light, all the weight is in the centre bearing housing and the exhaust turbine housing. Not sure if you want to remove much weight out of here because this could distort when heated to 1000degC. Ours is glowing red if run for a while under full power.

Cast iron tends to not be a very stable material so be careful.

[The guru of guru's]

I think id turn away if i saw someone welding a waste gate shut. Yeh i suppose there isnt a gain from stripping a turbo.... i suppose the lightest turbo is no turbo!
How are you guys goin?
Cheers
Dave.

[R/TErnie]

If the car is tuned to the highest boost the turbocharger will produce then there will be no problem with welding the gate closed.

I personally did this on a 2.4L SRT-4 turbo'd neon... made 390ft lbs... I peaked at 32psi @ 3300 rpms

[Pete M]

Uh... sure. Just make damn sure the steady-state speed of the turbo isn't outside its operating limits.

And word to the wise, you can't determine this from boost on a restricted engine. Once you choke the restrictor, the turbo may keep spooling quite a bit higher without affecting manifold pressure. Don't ask how i know. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Btw, there isn't much point answering 3 year old questions... either they already got it to work or they've given up... lol.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

Wow, R/T dusted off some of the old threads....sounds kinda like hes just trying to say as much as he can about turbos
BTW, a neon is a neon even with 400ft lbs!

[John Valerio]

yeah i foresee a watermelon-sized turbo on his fsae car.

R/T, what team are you with? maybe you can add your school name to the impressive amount of acronyms in your sig.

[formula_wally]

what the hell is with all these Honda boys and adding weld everywhere.

We had a kid come into our shop last month, said he was a honda tuner, and that he wanted to put weld on the crank of a 650 and destroke it. Then he said how next year they were going to add lots of 'weld' into the head to bring up compresion.

He insisted on calling it a 'black art', and that he has seen it, and done it all. Maybee just these 2 are souring me...

[R/TErnie]

I'm sorry that my experiences outside of FSAE skew my perspective. I don't build, tune, or drive Honda's. I'm a graduate student in Vehicle Design at WWU.

thanks for the tips.

[01-0041]

R/TErnie,

Just wondering who you are...

If you're on the team or in the VRI, why don't we know who you are!

[Jersey Tom]

I dont like welding on engines. Other than hard welding and grinding a cam.. thats not too bad, but I've seen F4i's with engine mounts and crap welded back on. That sketches me out and I stay far away.

[slow_vw]

good luck with your 40 psi srt-4 ventures! maybe you should stumble into the shop once in a while...better yet, show us your turbo neon with the welded wastegate, as youre clearly way too cool for spring controlled boost...

[R/TErnie]

487whp SRT-4 done with a T3 .63AR/60-1 and deltagate (38mm) http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/files/784905_ab930/B60LRMANRA3YQY5.JPG

265whp/390 ft lbs (srt-4 turbocharger)
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/files/474049_248f4/X47K9H9939QP2U6.JPG

394whp/387ft lbs (11.8@125) T3 .63A/R / 60-1
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/files/302692_419bd/FGVHBEI33NXOT9L.JPG
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/thumbs/large/302647_b83ca/N3QYYHHITTQG2IR.JPG

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/thumbs/large/1018051_z3kqq/4KUPK5NWJQM3CF4.JPG (http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/view/full/1018051_z3kqq)
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/thumbs/large/1018052_5wlli/06090502.jpg (http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/view/full/1018052_5wlli)
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/thumbs/large/1018053_eewcb/n65200820_30214007_9105.jpg (http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/view/full/1018053_eewcb)
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/thumbs/large/1018054_mnlqg/n65200820_30214016_198.jpg (http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/view/full/1018054_mnlqg)
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/thumbs/large/1018055_71ihv/n65200820_30214023_7878.jpg (http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/view/full/1018055_71ihv)

shop pic
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/files/302653_8474c/8JMDI435B0VYBB5.JPG

what Im currently working on
http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/files/483299_58d3e/8K5TVSGRWRO5Q27.JPG

Thanks for the "good luck" we'll be running more than 40psi on the GT4094R (72mm inducer/94mm exducer...yeah its like a watermelon http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) going on Steve Lockett's SFWD Neon. This year it bested a 9.85@143

I never said I was on the FSAE... I simply said what school I would be attending fall of 07. I have been to VRI...in fact Ive been there three times and met several members of the WWU FSAE team. I've spoken with Eric Leonhard and a few of the team members who openly talked with me and were very nice. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As you can see I'm a big fan of external wastegates.

I'll be up at VRI in about two weeks when I head up to meet my girlfriend.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

Ok, its still a Neon.

[R/TErnie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">ok, its still a Neon. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

very much so. Thats what makes it entertaining...beating a viper is great...but when you do it in a neon its better http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f25/RLamon/neonvsviper.jpg

[slow_vw]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm a graduate student in Vehicle Design at WWU. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ok.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> never said I was on the FSAE... I simply said what school I would be attending fall of 07. I have been to VRI...in fact Ive been there three times </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

so youre not ACTUALLY in the VRI, or at WWU.

just so we've cleared that up.

[R/TErnie]

http://www.we-todd-did-racing.com/files/1018077_fymer/acceptance%20letter.JPG

Does this clear it up for you? I accepted.

[JuicedH22]

Can someone PLEASE post up a "own'd" or "pwn'd" picture, hahahahah

[01-0041]

I'm still waiting for a point!

[slow_vw]

so you do have a student number, awesome.

now, to join the team...and actually be in the shop...haha

[Jevon]

Wow, you guys are negative. Whats with the hostility? I know replying to 3 year old posts is a little silly, but what gives?

I'm not a big fan of import "tuners" but I can respect what can be done with them. Building high boost drag strip cars doesn't have much to do with FSAE but at least he has experience doing something with cars. I can't say that for last years team that signed up for senior design and proceeded to do nothing and learn nothing.

Jevon

[VFR750R]

The only problem I think a majority of 'tuners' have is transfering their knowledge to FSAE as they assume it is all applicable. With the restrictor rules, throtle location and limited time and budget, FSAE is definitly unique. Things that work for FSAE dont' work for drag racing and vice versa. That said, the theory and principles are the same. Someone who truly understands turbo systems can adapt quickly and will be open to the changes that need to me made to make an FSAE turbo system work. Someone who looks at a FSAE turbo system and assumes it is 'wrong' is already on the path to failure. There have been turbo systems in FSAE for almost 20 years, there has been a lot of great engineers that went on to successful racing careers that have worked on these systems. They work very well, and typical areas for improvement for drag racing are not areas FSAE systems are sensitive to.

[R/TErnie]

Don't the 2008 Rules say you can configure your engine... Restrictor - turbo - intercooler - tb - Intake manifold? I thought I read something along these lines.

VFR750R- since you have a lot of experience turboing these engines...what about your motor program is different from NA to turbo? speaking in terms of $$$$$ nothing else. I would think that a lot of the parts you guys use for the NA setup would work perfectly for the boosted application as well. Not to mention garrett/honeywell sponsoring teams with turbochargers.

comments?

[VFR750R]

I doubt the Rules are 'officially' changed for 2008 but there are alot of people who'd like to see them changed. We should find out within the next month or so when the new rules come out.

Money wise, the turbo and our wastegate control are the only things 'extra' from an NA setup. Because we also run E85 our injectors are larger and we run a different fuel pump then a lot of gasoline cars would run. There isn't a lot to these, traditional blowoff valves don't work for FSAE, and our custom ECM handles controling the wastegate instead of buying a seperate controller.

[R/TErnie]

yes...you dont need a bov because the throttle is before the turbocharger...sorry...been stuck in non-FSAE land for too long.

I've designed a new wastegate for internally gated chargers. Improves boost control EXCEPTIONALLY BETTER than the actuator that comes with standard Garrett chargers.

I think I'll start selling them for Gt28RS's to make money for the FSAE team http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Your post confirms what I was thinking... monetarily there's really not much more to add.

Have you used the Garrett sponsorship? What were your experiences if so?

[Pete M]

AFAIK, Cornell run an IHI turbo. Wollongong run a garrett turbo though, a GT-15V. We've got absolutely no complaints about garrett as sponsors, although most of our dealings are with the Australian branch.

[kbuckert]

come on guys (engineers)...do the math, turbo's dont actually help in most of these cars if they are before the restrictor (required). once the flow is choked in the restrictor, it wont effect it...we turned 85hp out of our engine with 14.7lbs of boost (atmospheric pressure, aka without a turbo).

Kris Buckert
'07 Bradley University Team Coordinator
steering/electrical/everything else

[repeatoffender]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kbuckert:
come on guys (engineers)...do the math, turbo's dont actually help in most of these cars if they are before the restrictor (required). once the flow is choked in the restrictor, it wont effect it...we turned 85hp out of our engine with 14.7lbs of boost (atmospheric pressure, aka without a turbo).



Kris Buckert
'07 Bradley University Team Coordinator
steering/electrical/everything else </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol says you.

i would have thought 14.71 lbs of boost is measured as gauge pressure. just this idiocracy justifies my belief you have no understanding of the system and your just making blagerant comments for the hell of it?

It is true that the maximum hp potential is the same for both, obviously in its configuration to provide equality and technical innovation. However have you seen the torque curve of a turbo car compared to an NA of the same engine?

I have and its un believable! Think 80Nm from 7 grand up!

[Pete M]

OK, firstly "boost" is a gauge measure, not absolute. So you are running 0 psi of boost. No, you're not being funny.

Secondly, congratulations on 85 hp NA. That is better than we ever did with an NA package. We make 96 hp with our turbo package however. But comparing peak power doesn't tell the whole story, due to the restrictor. The real benefit of a turbo is the broadening of the power curve. We choke the restrictor at approximately 7000 rpm and make 100 N.m (74 ft.lbs) of torque. Show me that with a (rules legal) NA engine and i'll be very impressed.

That's not to say turbo'd 600s are the only valid approach to FSAE, countless teams have shown that's not the case (especially a certain little red car and a certain somewhat larger yellow car). But i'm a little tired of people who "do the math" (what math did you do exactly?) and proceed to tell the teams who have done a little bit more than just the math why their decision was wrong.

Edit: I'd really love to have our turbo before the restrictor... Didn't realise that was an option!

[kbuckert]

alright, I am sure that I have a different mindset than most of you...the torque range doesnt matter to our team because we are running a CVT...so all that we have to do is tune the CVT to the max power output of the engine and we are good to go. I can understand on a manual transmission where a larger power band would be much more beneficial.

From our calculations we choked the restrictor around 10500rpm and the dyno proved 10200rpm. because of this and the CVT we could not justify the additional weight of a turbo. We had a rules legal (everything was tight, no air leaks) engine and I think we were 85hp and 75-80ft-lbs of torque (I think). The guy who did the tuning of our engine did an amazing job!

sorry for the turbo before the restrictor...its not an option. I was thinking backwards, all that you can do is choke the flow earlier (lower rpm's) throguh the restrictor.

on a side note, I love turbos...I have a Turbo Trans Am that I built...and yes, it does matter, if I could have sold our advisors and team on it, we would have the nice whine on our car!

[Kirk Feldkamp]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kbuckert:
...and 75-80ft-lbs of torque (I think)... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your thinking makes me laugh. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Good luck making 75-80 ft-lbs on a NA FSAE setup. That's approximately stock GSXR1000 torque numbers. If you made 80 ft-lbs anywhere over 5500 rpm you would have nearly already surpassed your claim of 85 hp. 85hp is a well tuned NA FSAE setup for sure, but your torque number is certainly wrong.

I'm with Pete M... turbo before the restrictor? Sign me up! How about moving the throttle too?! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Kirk

[ad]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by turbotwig:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kbuckert:
...and 75-80ft-lbs of torque (I think)... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your thinking makes me laugh. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Good luck making 75-80 ft-lbs on a NA FSAE setup. That's approximately stock GSXR1000 torque numbers. If you made 80 ft-lbs anywhere over 5500 rpm you would have nearly already surpassed your claim of 85 hp. 85hp is a well tuned NA FSAE setup for sure, but your torque number is certainly wrong.

I'm with Pete M... turbo before the restrictor? Sign me up! How about the throttle too?! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Kirk </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i'll take one throttle before the restrictor :P

[Kirk Feldkamp]

You know what I mean. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Read the rule change proposal that will never happen as long as Michael Royce is running the show.

[kbuckert]

alright, just to verify...I went back to our report from 4 months ago and found the numbers

85 hp @10,500rpm
43 ft-lbs of torque @10,000rpm

These numbers are directly from the dyno (the same guy as had the chassis dyno at competition).

[Christopher Catto]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by turbotwig:
You know what I mean. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Read the rule change proposal that will never happen as long as Michael Royce is running the show. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

frankly, i wouldnt care about a rule change. but then allow NA engines to be up to 750cc (too much maybe? not many 700s available...)

[Pete M]

I'd say they'd be more likely to drop the restrictor size than do anything that would increase the performance of the cars. Which would suck, but i'm still sorta expecting it.