engine pre heating

[Jon Burford]

Hi all.
I was recently chatting with a car owner at a motorsport show and he outlined an idea to me which I will be perusing in my spare time (after FSUK).
He pre-heats his race engine, something you read about a lot in the higher echelons of motorsport, but something I think is fairly applicable to us all especially where we are trying to save fuel and minimising our warm up times (Edurance events spring to mind!)

he showed me his kenlowe electric water preheater and I instanly noticed that it was a rip off, the kit itself
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/...on-engine-pre-heater (http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/engine-pre-heaters/kenlowe-competition-engine-pre-heater)
here retails for £600 exclusive of tax.
which is a lot!

I have designed my own take on it that I am going to manufacture. It will be fairly similar to these, mains supplied heater and pump, with dry break fittings all nicely presented in a box.
The temperature is obviously controled automatically to prevent over heating and certain death.
The kit retrofits to any engine by the addition of the male halfs of the dry-break fittings to your cooling system.
I will be making a prototype shortly of which I can show photos to anybody interested but the ambition would be to make a small batch and move them along to people who want them at a lot less than the kenlowe kit.
nobody likes starting a cold race engine and my kit will get you up to running temperature in no time meaning a nice hot engine first thing every morning!

If this is of interest to anybody, drop me a message and I will keep you updated.
I should also mention that this is nothing to do with my university!

Cheers

Jon

[Jon Burford]

Hi all.
I was recently chatting with a car owner at a motorsport show and he outlined an idea to me which I will be perusing in my spare time (after FSUK).
He pre-heats his race engine, something you read about a lot in the higher echelons of motorsport, but something I think is fairly applicable to us all especially where we are trying to save fuel and minimising our warm up times (Edurance events spring to mind!)

he showed me his kenlowe electric water preheater and I instanly noticed that it was a rip off, the kit itself
http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/...on-engine-pre-heater (http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/motorsport/engine-pre-heaters/kenlowe-competition-engine-pre-heater)
here retails for £600 exclusive of tax.
which is a lot!

I have designed my own take on it that I am going to manufacture. It will be fairly similar to these, mains supplied heater and pump, with dry break fittings all nicely presented in a box.
The temperature is obviously controled automatically to prevent over heating and certain death.
The kit retrofits to any engine by the addition of the male halfs of the dry-break fittings to your cooling system.
I will be making a prototype shortly of which I can show photos to anybody interested but the ambition would be to make a small batch and move them along to people who want them at a lot less than the kenlowe kit.
nobody likes starting a cold race engine and my kit will get you up to running temperature in no time meaning a nice hot engine first thing every morning!

If this is of interest to anybody, drop me a message and I will keep you updated.
I should also mention that this is nothing to do with my university!

Cheers

Jon

[Charles Kaneb]

Nice!

A&M has engine preheating at the track, only ours is solar-powered, consisting of a black radiator shroud and the Texas sun.

I'd love to have that on a shifter kart; I've seen more people cold-seize engines than hot-seize them.

[Jon Burford]

thanks :-)
I live in the cold :-(

[Ben K]

I saw that GFR also runs an engine pre-heater as well. They made it themselves:

http: // i. imgur. com / VRrYq .jpg

Ben

[Jon Burford]

Nice!
Had not seen that before.

There's not really very much too them, but a few fairly costly parts and materials.

[Steve Slowboy]

An alternative that you see at many of the UK hillclimbs is a diesel pre-heater - from Tom New at "New Techniques" (Sorry, not sure of the web address), which avoids the need for mains power. Generally they heat the coolant up to about 70 degrees (C) or thereabouts. The NME V8's (basically reworked Ford/Cosworth apparently won't start cold due to very tight clearances to the bearings.

Pre-heating an engine is definitely a good idea - both to save on fuel as well as engine wear.

I would be very interested in one of your kits Jon.

Cheers
Steve

[Jon Burford]

@Steve - Thanks for that, i will keep you posted on progress.
Do you think it's potentially a product other hillclimb/sprinters would be interested in?
know of anybody who has refused to pay for the kenlowe/earls kit?
With regard to the diesel heaters. I have seen one at a recent hillclimb.
I see the attraction of no electricity being required. But I can also see how that would cost a lot more!
my system should be capable of boiling your coolant more or less so I was thinking of initially setting the limit/target at 80 - 85 degrees (c) (Thats what I think I would want), but I have just found a simple little way of making the temperature adjustable so may persue that avenue.

Cheers

[Rex Chan]

Would you also want the oil heated up as well? Does heating the water get the oil hot too? I'm thinking in a dry sump, most of the oil is sitting in the external tank.

We "pre-heat" for any events by running the engine... RobM in 09 heated the water externally, but then you run into bleeding issues.

[Jon Burford]

@Rex
The block is heated so only the block oil would be heated.
The gentleman I was talking to had another device for warming his oil, but he said the water was more important.

Well done for pre heating your engine! You are still cranking and starting on a cold engine though and using more fuel doing so.
I am not saying that you need to use a device to preheat a stock bike engine, it doesn't hurt though, especially with the eleveted idle speed that lots of teams have!
I think it would really help some of the guys running high revving singles and such which are essentially race engines.

Bleeding issues are resolved by a pre-primed system and quality dry-break fittings.

I was just trying to help out some people that might be interested that didn't/couldn't afford the kenlowe/Earls kit.

[Canuck Racing]

Not to rain on your sales Jon, but it you (or anyone) is that concerned why not just install a block heater plug. They don't weigh that much, cost around $40 and just need a boss welded into a coolant line or radiator.

You still only heat the coolant and need electricity, but there are no dry-break valves to worry about or box of tubes and such to carry about, just a standard extension cord.

Example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-...0878117941%26ps%3D54 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Engine-Block-Heater-3-4NPT-/380410261660?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA% 252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D180878 117941%26ps%3D54)

And if you are worried about oil pre-heating, you could possibly adapt one of these: http://compare.ebay.com/like/1...=sbar&_lwgsi=y&cbt=y (http://compare.ebay.com/like/170771105926?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y&cbt=y)

[Mbirt]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jon Burford:
I think it would really help some of the guys running high revving singles and such which are essentially race engines. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v89/frostbight/Attrax/Track4.jpg
Every time I fear that I'm hurting a single, I think of our Baja team leader checking valve lash on his CRF at a dusty track, the bush tour rental WR's and CRF's in Australia, and bikes being ridden in northern Canada as pictured above. In addition to this, don't forget that your engine was once at home in a snowmobile, Jon.

With this said, I can see the advantage in using a coolant heater pre-endurance. Has anyone seen GFR use it at a competition? You can probably find a thesis paper on it if you snoop around on OSU servers.

[Jon Burford]

@Mbrit
I am fully aware of my motors snow mobile roots. I have ridden one with the genesis engine in. The tendancy would be to leave that beast warm up for a good long while before running it hard though.
All I know is that I think every engine I have had the honour of operating is better warm. I would much rather my engines be warm from the off.

[MCoach]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">http: // i. imgur. com / VRrYq .jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In this picture, Notice the excessively speed holed component. That's the key to victory http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The dry break connectors I would imagine to be the most frustrating part. From what I hear from the snowmobile guys, it's a finicky situation with choosing a quality set.

On the preheating circuit, However, it seems simple.
It's essentially a heating circuit and a pump. Keeping the system bled well only seems to be a concern without an external reservoir/overflow in my experience. Placement of connectors should be weighed mostly by ease of access.


One thing for teams to consider would be to use the catch can as a swirl pot/overflow. I've seen adding a small swirl pot to a system do miracles for cooling. Alas, that is another problem altogether.

[Dewi Griffiths]

That's a nifty idea Jon. I'm sure we will talk about it on the weekend.

Here in Cardiff we run the Aprilia SXV 550 engine and it requires heating up to allow it to start reliably (I'm sure you've heard about the reliability issues with these engines anyway). We don't do this in a fancy way. We just point a heat gun into the sidepod and turn on the water pump with the laptop. Takes a few minutes to get up to around 35deg and she starts first time.

For some of you blessed with better climates than here in Wales, you may see this as a negligible temperature, but I swear it makes a difference!

So when you guys pre heat your engines, what temperatures are we talking about?

[Simon Dingle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Canuck Racing:
Not to rain on your sales Jon, but it you (or anyone) is that concerned why not just install a block heater plug. They don't weigh that much, cost around $40 and just need a boss welded into a coolant line or radiator.

You still only heat the coolant and need electricity, but there are no dry-break valves to worry about or box of tubes and such to carry about, just a standard extension cord.

Example: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-...0878117941%26ps%3D54 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Brand-New-Engine-Block-Heater-3-4NPT-/380410261660?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA% 252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D180878 117941%26ps%3D54)

And if you are worried about oil pre-heating, you could possibly adapt one of these: http://compare.ebay.com/like/1...=sbar&_lwgsi=y&cbt=y (http://compare.ebay.com/like/170771105926?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar&_lwgsi=y&cbt=y) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Has anyone got any experience actually doing this? It seems like the simplest and cheapest way of pre-heating an engine when you combine it with an electric water pump (which many teams use anyway). I also found a 1kW version that would fit nicely in a radiator header tank.

[Jon Burford]

@Griff.
I am looking to pre-heat to just under running temp ~85 degrees (C).

@Simon
I have experience of block heaters, they stop Scandinavian car's oil getting too viscous to crank the motor properly.
They would work in a FS car with an electric pump.

[jlangholzj]

granted you would need an inverter,but back when we had our 172 with the O-300 in it, we had one of these on our engine:

preheaters (http://www.reiffpreheat.com/product.htm#System Summary)

scroll about halfway down or so. Also another company called tanis makes a similar product of just a stick on pad.

this would be for those of you who are worried about the oil being heated.