Engine quesiton

[scottbob]

We have a peculiar issue in which we cannot get spark. The positive side of the coil is getting 12v but seems to not be getting a good ground. We are using a quad channel haltech ignition module and are wondering if anyone has had problems with grounding through the module. When we use the voltmeter and reference the battery + to the ecu ignition outputs we get 12v, is this correct? We know that we can get spark (pretty weak) from the plugs but are getting knew ones now just in case. Thanks for any help

[scottbob]

We have a peculiar issue in which we cannot get spark. The positive side of the coil is getting 12v but seems to not be getting a good ground. We are using a quad channel haltech ignition module and are wondering if anyone has had problems with grounding through the module. When we use the voltmeter and reference the battery + to the ecu ignition outputs we get 12v, is this correct? We know that we can get spark (pretty weak) from the plugs but are getting knew ones now just in case. Thanks for any help

[jeroen van bellen]

We had got the same problem a few years ago. Running on a MoTec m400, the coilplug is switched to ground, because of the "high" current, we placed a transistor amplifier between the ECU and the coil plugs. After this modification we had never have the problem again

good luck!

[Brian Barnhill]

Just a few questions and I might be able to help:

1. What ECU are you using to trigger the ignitor? I am assuming you are using the "dumb" haltech ignitor, not the CDI unit?

2. What type of trigger set up are you using and what is your ignition mode?

3. Are you getting Fuel?

4. Have you put a scope on the ecu to verify the ignitor is getting a signal?

5. You say we get spark from the plugs - is this when manually grounding the same coils the plugs are normally connected to?

6. What coils are you using?

I've had pretty good luck with haltech ignitor (personally and selling them as a dealer) and have never seen a ground issue. Check the settings in your ECU - Haltech ignitors are usually constant charge for the dwell mode and falling edge for the trigger/spark edge (check with the instructions that came with the ignitor to be sure - incorrect settings can damage the ignitor/and or ECU.)

[scottbob]

Hey guys, thanks for helping.. Here's the answers to your questions, Brian.

1. We are using the Platinum Sport 1000. We are using a "dumb" Haltech ignitor.

2. it is direct fire, constant charge, dwell time 2.0 ms. basically all the correct options that come with the ignitor set-up guide.

3. yes

4. yes, the ECU is sending out about a 1V signal when it's trying to spark.

5.yes, when we manually grounded them.

6. Denso coils.. not sure what model.

thanks again.

[Adambomb]

The majority of coils I've seen run ignition-switched +12V and your spark control unit (whether points, electronic, etc.) pulses to ground. So unless I'm confused about what you're getting for an output, +1V isn't a particularly good sign.

Hooking a CDI coil to a standard ignition controller is a good way to kill ignition controllers. So is hooking up a low-impedance coil to an ignition controller designed for high-impedance coils. Setting up a basic transistor circuit (like jeroen mentioned) should allow you to run a low impedance coil with a high impedance controller, but a CDI coil needs a bit more oomph.

[TheBlueHouse]

Thanks for the input Adambomb, that is actually supposed to be a +11v instead of +1v. We realized after the post that we read the o-scope slightly wrong, so we are getting good voltage to the coils.

[TMichaels]

Hi guys,
I have two suggestions:

1) Hook up an oscilloscope to the line connecting you ECU ignition output and the ignition power stage / amplifier. (Reference should be battery ground) The ECU and the amplifier have to be connected! It should show a square wave running between 12V and 0V when cranking. If not you may have one of the following problems:
a) Wiring between ECU and power stage
b) Setup of your ECU
c) Damaged ECU ignition outputs

2) If measurement one has not shown an error: Hook up an oscilloscope between +12V (at the battery) (oscilloscope in)and one of the coil outputs of the ignition amplifier (ground reference of the osco).
You should see a square wave signal running between 12V and 0V. Does not have to be exactly 0V, since the reference will float, when the coil ouput is not active)
If not and the first test 1) has not shown an error you may have one of the following problems:
a) Damaged coil outputs.
b) Ground wiring of the ignition amplifier.

This list may not be complete, but I hope it helps to sort out the problem. That is, how I would do it.

Regards,

Tobi

[Brian Barnhill]

Scottbob,

TMichaels is dead on with his test procedure, and following that will at least help narrow down the causes. I just helped my old team get a P1000 and Haltech ignitor setup on an older vehicle so hopefully I can help you out as well.

But first thing - you say the ECU is sending out a 12v signal when it's trying to spark? IF your setting is falling edge (as it should be for the Haltech ignitor) it should be FALLING to 0v from 12v to trigger spark. Check your edge settings again. Falling edge "will use a zero voltage output at idle, a +12V signal for charging, and a falling edge to zero volts to fire the spark" Go into your basic setup menu, click the Ignition tab, and check what the spark edge is set to. This SHOULD BE FALLING. In an oscope you should see a constant line at 12v and a spike DOWN to 0v when it's trying to fire. If you really are seeing a rising edge to 12v then you will not see spark with this ignitor. Double check this.


If that doesn't work, just a few more questions

- What is your trigger type (standard, standard half cycle, etc) and what kind of crank trigger are you running (VR or Hall effect and #teeth)? and what is your home (Cam, Missing tooth, etc)? Check your trigger count, Home count, and ttrigger count since last home and make sure you are actually getting a proper trigger and home reading.

- What is your ignition mode (wasted spark, Direct fire?) Direct Fire WILL NOT work on missing tooth style home triggers. It will require a home signal every 720 degrees of cyl 1. Also - what is your injection mode (Sequential, Semi-Sequential, Batch, etc?)

-What's the resistance of your coils? as mentioned before this can cause some issues. If these are the stock bike coils you are usually fine (only one's I've personally tested are the honda coils though)

-Have you welded on the chassis with either the ECU or ignitor hooked up or bolted to the chassis? Possibly reversed polarity on the battery? Any of these can damage the outputs of both the ECU and the Ignitor

Since you are getting fuel, I would assume your trigger type and setup is fine (unless you have distributormode selected or direct fire ignition (only spark on one channel) with the incorrect home trigger.

If all else fails you can always try giving haltech support a call (either the US or Australia numbers) They are very friendly and helpful.

[Brian Barnhill]

@scottbob: Just curious if there's any progress on this issues? Fixed? and if so what seemed to have solved it?

[TheBlueHouse]

@Brian Barnhill: we did numerous tests with an o-scope (while talking to haltech support) and decided it was the ignition module, we were getting a 12v signal into the module but were not getting a good signal out of the module. We ordered a new one but of course there was a problem with the credit card used so they didnt ship it to us once they got it in. Another guy and myself are driving down to Lexington, Ky to the office tomorrow at the crack of dawn to pick it up ourselves. We will keep you updated as to if that was the problem or not. Thanks for your help

[Brian Barnhill]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Brian Barnhill:
@scottbob: Just curious if there's any progress on this issues? Fixed? and if so what seemed to have solved it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad to hear you're at least making progress. Hopefully it is just a faulty ignitor. Any idea if it was just a DOA unit or something caused the damage? Incorrect settings from the ECU, welding on the chassis, incorrect coil resistance or reversing the polarity can all cause issues.

[TheBlueHouse]

Well it was the ignitor (we think we might have had the dwell time too long), we switched it out (changed the dwell) and after a few attempts at turning it over we got it started and idling pretty good. After the initial excitement of once again hearing the engine run, we proceeded to put all the wiring back in the split loom covering. After this we tried to start the engine once again and nothing, the starter solenoid clicked so we checked another solenoid we had laying around and the same thing happened. We switched batteries and the same thing happened; added a battery charger and the same thing. Eventually we disconnected all the wiring except what is needed for the starter and we got some rapid clicking, then the next time just a click from the solenoid. Sometimes the solenoid clicks rapidly and other times it just clicks once. The battery has about 12V.

Any ideas?

[Brian Barnhill]

Good to hear you got it running. Too long of a dwell can burn out the ignitor.

Sounds like a loose connection or low voltage. What is the voltage of the battery during cranking? Try starting it with a jumper battery and see what happens (battery chargers are usually trickle charge and won't aid in starting the car.)

Check all your ground a power lines, espcially those going to the starter. Connection at the power switches, relays, fuses, etc. The clicking sound is typically indicitive of a poor connection and not enough power on the solenoid as it gets just enough power to click the solenoid, but not turn over the starter. That sounds exactly like what our F4i does when the battery low or our relay or switch has a loose connection. Since it happened when you put it back in the loom, I'd suggest you either pulled something loose or have a bad connector/short somewhere.

EDIT - What are you using for a starter relay? If it's like the stock f4i relay where the +12v in and output to the starter have their own terminals def. check those as they can tend to come loose as you move the harness. Also measure the voltage TO your starter as you crank (you can also always jump straight to the starter just to test it.)