New Engine for Indian Teams

[PatClarke]

Several Indian teams have expressed difficulty in sourcing a suitable engine for FS/FSAE.

The Enfield Company have just announced a new unit construction 500cc single that might suit their needs. This is an all new engine design, though with a retro style to suit the Enfield image. The engine has EFI as standard, so should be an easy adaptation for our use.

The power output is moderate, but that is because the engine is tuned 'safe' for some of the dodgy fuels in India, plus the somewhat 'agricultural' uses the engine is sometimes put to. Significant power increases should be a reasonably straightforward matter.

This is a link to the Enfield site for further information.
http://www.royalenfield.com/app/IN/news.asp?sID=17055

I hope this helps our Sub Continental friends

Cheers
Pat

[PatClarke]

Several Indian teams have expressed difficulty in sourcing a suitable engine for FS/FSAE.

The Enfield Company have just announced a new unit construction 500cc single that might suit their needs. This is an all new engine design, though with a retro style to suit the Enfield image. The engine has EFI as standard, so should be an easy adaptation for our use.

The power output is moderate, but that is because the engine is tuned 'safe' for some of the dodgy fuels in India, plus the somewhat 'agricultural' uses the engine is sometimes put to. Significant power increases should be a reasonably straightforward matter.

This is a link to the Enfield site for further information.
http://www.royalenfield.com/app/IN/news.asp?sID=17055

I hope this helps our Sub Continental friends

Cheers
Pat

[the weldmeister]

Hey, thanks a lot, Pat!
We were actually contemplating getting an older version of the same engine, but decided to plug for a CBR engine instead.

But this will certainly help the Indian teams who aren't so fortunate as to get enough sponsorship for an f4i.

Orion Racing
Mumbai

[fart can]

If the Enfield motors in India are as quality as the ones over here in the US, I would sooner put a Bajaj motor in my car.

[PatClarke]

Fartcan,
A hugely unintelligent comment from someone who hides behind a hugely unintelligant handle.

I know the reputation the Indian engines have. I also know that the quality of stuff from India gets better by the day, and this is an all new fuel injected 500cc engine.

I also know the almost impossibility the Indian teams have to get a suitable engine. When this news came available, I thought it a good idea to let the Indian teams know! So if you haven't anything constructive to contribute, go fart in your can!
Pat

[rjwoods77]

If they end up anything like an Enfield rifle then the engine will never break. God what a fabulous firearm.

[samphlett]

PatClarke,

An eloquent and professional putting-down with no malice or name-calling. Good work. You will go far with that attitude.

[Infinity]

Thanks Pat,
Thats good news for a country where Formula fever is rising and it would certainly inspire more universities/colleges to participate in the competition...

[vandit]

cheers pat...

your attachment to sub continent is commendable and we experienced your immense help in Australia events in 05 and 06 and Germany 07 ...i dont know about others in my country, but we believe to follow your suggestions very very seriously....

our team bought f4i last year, and have decided to stick to salvage it for next year also....but surely we have put people to start working on new enfield engine...

[shampoo]

Went to the Enfield Factory and spoke to R&D GM. Enfield has to be your last resort option.
26Bhp at 5300 Rpm and 40Nm at 3500 Rpm. Pushrod engine which means you are at danger if you cross 6-7K. Add to it the engine is stressed and weighs some 80Kgs!!

[vandit]

even i had the doubt on power output....because every engine in sub continent is compromised on power to give more mileage....but pat mentioned something about increasing power ...lets see what he has to say on increasing power....

[shampoo]

yeah.. increasing power is possible. Pat told us that that RPM limit is only artificial because they want more life for the engine and we can adjust the ECU settings. Also compression ratio may be adjusted a bit but the problem is the weight. In fact our prof was saying instead use the pulsar 220!

[vandit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shampoo:
In fact our prof was saying instead use the pulsar 220! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


oooh!....pulsar 220!...that engine gives like what some 20 odd bhp....i really dont have idea how much can you power can you churn out from that engine....and probably your whole drive train will have to go under serious make over ....

[stealth]

hello everyone...
can i know from where we can get the master switches in INDIA which suit the specification of FSAE ?(i saw some pics in rules book)

[Steve Fox]

Fart Can, & all other non-Indian FS team members,

(Now, Fart Can, I don't really mean to single you out here, but let's face it mate, you opened your mouth, and then stuck your foot in it, clear up to your ankle bone! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif This forum is for constructive comments! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

What you have to realize is that the Indian teams are hugely resource challenged. In order to get a F4i engine, they either have to get it on the black market, for a large sum of cash (in excess of $12,000USD if I am remebering correctly, for a VERY used piece http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif), or they pay even more for a 'legit' used engine. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

The advantage to the black market engine, is its 'low' price, the problem with the black market engine is getting it back into the country after competition.

The next time you are at a FS competition, why don't you try and make a point of going over and introducing yourself to any of the Indian teams. They are all very friendly, and have great Can-Do attitudes. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Their biggest problem is resources! They have very few parts to work with, very few tools and limited facilities. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I would be willing to bet that most American teams, if faced with the same problems the Indian teams face daily, would give up way before getting the car anywhere near completed. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif The luxury advantages we have are sometimes taken for granted. Take a little time to poke your head up out of your own hole and look at what others around you have to deal with. It can be a very hunbling experience. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I for one am very pleased to see the number of Indian teams participating in FS type events. They are a very resourseful bunch, & they keep getting better all the time. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[JD232]

I dont think Enfield is a suitable option...
the power output is nowhere near the honda or yamaha engines.. yes it can give you a car that completes the race and easy availability but you cant win a race with it. I dare any team to do it... and Indian team might not have won yet but that dont mean we dont aim for a win.

Thanks for the support Mr. Fox but seriously, $12,000?? where did you get that figure?
I can get you at least 4 if not 5 engines for that... and all honda/yamahas...

[ben]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Steve Fox:

What you have to realize is that the Indian teams are hugely resource challenged. In order to get a F4i engine, they either have to get it on the black market, for a large sum of cash (in excess of $12,000USD if I am remebering correctly, for a VERY used piece http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif), or they pay even more for a 'legit' used engine. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

The advantage to the black market engine, is its 'low' price, the problem with the black market engine is getting it back into the country after competition.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is the context I'm convinced Claude Rouelle was using when he is alleged to have said "even the indians do better" when criticising a UK team.

Outside the top positions, which pretty much judge themselves most of the time, you have to judge cars relative to the resources the team has available in their native country and offer encouragement from that position.

Everyone takes the competition very seriously when their directly involved in a car and can see this as "favouritism" but having the opportunity to judge a variety of teams over the past few years I've truly appreciated the educational aspect of the competition, and it is education rather than real racing despite what it feels like at the time.

Ben

[PSUAlum06]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silverback:
I dont think Enfield is a suitable option...
the power output is nowhere near the honda or yamaha engines.. yes it can give you a car that completes the race and easy availability but you cant win a race with it. I dare any team to do it... and Indian team might not have won yet but that dont mean we dont aim for a win.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I fully understand the concerns about power output there's a lot to be said for a motor that's easy to source, reliable, and well supported locally. Will a perfectly tuned Enfield beat a moderate 600cc sportbike motor? probably not, but it'll absolutely destroy an F4i with a mangled crankshaft, bent valves, or that's otherwise in dubious condition.

You'd also be surprised at how little power you need in order to be competitive if you have a car with well-sorted handling.

[TorqueWrench]

I agree with what PSUAlum06 said. You don't need tons of power to be competitive.

UB went to Detroit with a Briggs V-Twin that is putting out (by our best guess, our dyno is broken and we still don't have a pull) about 30HP. I won't even try to guess at torque. We ended up placing 14th in the Endurance/Fuel Economy and 18th Overall.

Now I'm not saying that the car couldn't have used more straight line power (that was one of the drivers' complaints), but it just goes to show that you don't need to be putting out 75+HP to do well in the competition. Simply finishing the endurance race in the time requirement will help you place pretty high in the competition, so a bullet-proof engine that is slightly underpowered is certainly not a bad idea.

[JD232]

You missed the point... I am sure UB Racing voluntarily didnt go in with a 30HP engine... Its commendable finishing 14th under the circumstances but still..

I cant contemplate the idea of starting a project with a presumption that you cant win... thats simply not how you do things.

For Indian Teams... the 400cc(Honda, cant remember the model) class popular in Hongkong makes a better choice, with a power output of 50BHP.. it will be hell lot lighter... and we were getting it for less than US$1500.. so its a bargain.. even an enfield costs more than that.. if you give even a little time you can find that engine in any of the bigger cities in India.. contact me if you want it in India.. I can probably hook you up with the guy who deals in it....

[Big Bird]

Aah, yes, the old "must have more horsepower" argument.

The team I've had history with has had plenty of decent results over the years with around 50hp on tap (yes, the team now has access to lots of carbon fibre, but it wasn't always that way). Yep, you might lose some points in straight line speed, but there are other ways you make it up (especially by directing time resources to the critical stuff that can make or break your weekend).

I have a bit of a rule-of-thumb spreadsheet I've slapped together over the years, that gives rough competition points variations for different design concepts (mainly based on weight, power, tyre load sensitivity and fuel economy). I punched in values for the UWA car (around 265kg including driver, around 65kW) as representative of a top level car. Then I punched in values for what I would think would be a well designed Enfield car - around 310kg ( 20kgs extra for the engine, say 25kg extra for a good spaceframe rolling chassis) and say around 35kW for the engine with a bit of tuning and development (reasonable?). The result - the points difference over the whole comp would be somewhere in the vicinity of 70 points. Now maybe my spreadsheet has a few errors and approximations, but even so it would be a big stretch for me to believe that an Enfield car built to the same professionalism and quality as the UWA car would be any more than 100 points behind.

Now, I hear you all screaming, 100 points, we won't give that up, we are in this to win, blah blah blah. But think about it. Are you regularly finishing within 100 points of a UWA, or a Graz, or a Cornell? If you were, you would be a top 5 contender, or maybe on a bad day only a top 10 contender if the comp was pretty tight. Most teams are not finishing at that level, so I'd say it is something a lot more important than a CBR that is holding them back.

The trouble is that most teams won't honestly assess what their design problem truly is. If you are not within 100 points of the leaders then I would say it has a lot more to do with team management, or the actual execution of the vehicle, than anything to do with the components you selected.

Think long term. Free up some project time by settling for an engine in your own backyard, rather than sweating over importing stuff. Once you are regularly scoring over 700 points, then you can start worrying about getting a "better" engine. In the meantime, spend less money and spend more time learning the basics. That is a much better way of getting to the winners circle.

My final point, think of which is going to work better for your sponsorship worth in your own country:
Magazine article 1: "*** University has scored a top 5 finish amongst the best universities in the world in the prestigious Formula SAE competitions. What's more, they have done so against much better financed teams using our own homegrown Enfield engines......"
Magazine article 2: "*** University has recently returned home after competing in the prestigious Formula SAE competition. The team put in a valiant effort, but were thwarted by last minute reliability issues....."

Cheers all

[JD232]

oh by the way I have lead a team who made a FSAE car with a Royal Enfield 350cc engine... that was when we were trying to find out if we are up for FSAE level competition!! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The car was mostly under FSAE rules except for fuel tank, seat belt, and detachable steering. The manufacturing cost came to just over $1000... it is a fact!!

http://www.torque-india.com

The car's name is TI-07

[rjwoods77]

Silverback,

The design intent for UB was for a 50hp engine and cvt package. We are currently, with our best guess, about 35hp and with a clutch that isnt tuned the best and the team managed to swing a 18th finish. With 10-15hp more, better clutch tuning and less weight we will definitely be in the top 10 just running some numbers much like Big Bird did.

Big Bird,

Hope your project is going well. Maybe the next car cycle the team will get some accolades like that for running a lawn mower engine.

Indian teams,

Have you ever considered using a Briggs and Stratton industrial engine and a cvt. I cant imagaine that you cant get a Briggs v-twin in India for not too much money and while it isnt the most effiecient cvt you can buy a Comet 790 clutch that most Mini Baja teams use for 250 bucks new.

[JD232]

But isnt the Royal Enfield 500 a 35hp engine??
with a weight greater than that of 600cc engine... whats the point?

I havent tried to get the cost on a Royal Enfield 500.. but my guess is around a $1000 for used, and double that for a new one... maybe even less... cost advantage is there I guess... but I am not sure about whether it will be easier to maintain

[JD232]

Havent heard of a Braggs n Stratton engine... maybe its available, havent gone looking for an industrial Engine...

Mini Baja in India provides the competitors with a 275cc Lombardini single cylinder, and CVT produced by Mahindra & Mahindra (Quiet a large automobile company in India in case you dont know) for free I think... and its compulsary to use them or something like that....

[vreihen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silverback:

Mini Baja in India provides the competitors with a 275cc Lombardini single cylinder, and CVT produced by Mahindra & Mahindra </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is there a rule in FSAE that says you cannot run two engines in one car? (275cc + 275cc = 550cc) http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Maybe join two single cylinder engines at the crank ends? Having one engine driving each rear wheel with some insane ECU software to act as a differential between the two would certainly be interesting, although not necessarily something to be undertaken by an inexperienced team.

As they say, ingenuity is a mother..... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Sisyphus]

You can run multiple engines as long as all the air goes thru the single restrictor (see 3.5.1.1). Might be a bit awkward for multiple engines.

Back in the 70's Can Am era, a car was built with 4 engines--one for each wheel. Didn't work very well....

If you build it, please come to FSAE West.

[JD232]

I am not going to tell you the BHP value on the lombardini engine... but if our Uni's Mini Baja team is to be believed its a shocking number... you will be better off with an Enfield 500... (or even enfield 350 for that matter) http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[RiNaZ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by vreihen:
Is there a rule in FSAE that says you cannot run two engines in one car? (275cc + 275cc = 550cc) http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Maybe join two single cylinder engines at the crank ends? Having one engine driving each rear wheel with some insane ECU software to act as a differential between the two would certainly be interesting ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think i read somwhere in Racecar Engineering Magazine about a hillclimber car that uses 2 engines and join them mechanically w/out any softwares or electronics.

You cant use 2 engines? that is an interesting concept though.

[rjwoods77]

I believe that would be the Force SR8 that ran two 4 cylnder engines side by side like a straight 8. Had 800hp/ton.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6111370037003719934

I know my cars!!! Booyyaa Bitches!!! I dont know the firing order it has almost an Audi 5 cylinder back howl to it. Intersting.

[RiNaZ]

I think it was an open wheel race car ... with bike engines, and it's much smaller than the one in the video.

[PSUAlum06]

Something more like this?

http://cache.daylife.com/imageserve/0cqp6Qd0GienL/610x.jpg

[ben]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silverback:
But isnt the Royal Enfield 500 a 35hp engine??
with a weight greater than that of 600cc engine... whats the point?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The point as Geoff made so clearly is that you'd lose maybe 70 or 100 points over the event, but you might easily gain those 100 back and more if you do a simple car that is easier to manufacture with the resources available locally to ensure you have good reliability and adequate testing before the event.

Plus if you do the sort of objective analysis Geoff's discussed you might get more design points. Further to that, you might score more presentation points if you have a locally sourced engine that allows your "weekend racer" to repair and maintain it cheaply.

So; -70 in outright car potential, +150 for actually finishing endurance because you did loads of engine testing in advance, + 5 points in design for improving the objectivity of your performance analysis and + 5 points in presentation for having a car that is more relevant to the local market = +90 points.

This is an educational exercise where lap time isn't the only metric...

Ben

[JD232]

Yes Ben, I get that point...

But even with limited testing on a component the team believe that it will work... Nobody builds a car thinking it wont finish endurance! Even maybe there are chances of that happening.

Indian team's problem with Yamahas and Hondas are we are unfamiliar with the engine, and there arent enough good engineers/mechanics who know that engine, so its difficult to learn... there is only so much you can learn from engine manuals... Royal Enfield 500, by the way is as much of an alien bike over here...

And well of course, the fact remains.... Majority Indian teams are new, the oldest team is 5yrs old, that can give you a picture...

[Big Bird]

Silverback,

I would say that the majority of teams build cars with the intention of finishing endurance. The fact is that even in a mature competition like this, most teams don't. Regularly we see 60-70% of teams failing to finish all events, and there are distinct trends in which teams regularly finish and which teams regularly fail. As for there being "chances" that failure might happen, your job as an engineer is to eliminate those chances. To paraphrase some of Carroll Smith's words of wisdom there is no bad luck, only bad management.

You need to start thinking about why some teams continually succeed, and why some teams continually fail. The former teams do so because they have systems and processes in place to minimize the risk of failure. The latter mostly occurs when desire outweighs abilities.

Academic arguments about which engine / tyres / supension / chassis / differential might make your car the fastest are purely that - academic arguments. They are arguments about potential, and their practicality then needs to be weighed against your ability to deliver the final product. All the best wishes and good intentions in the world mean nothing if you make a poor design decision that commits your team to something it cannot see through to the end.

Now please don't think I'm being hard on your team, nor on your fellow countrymen. I am in awe of anyone that can complete a FSAE project, even more so for anyone that is doing it with the supply difficulties you seem to have in India. I am only offering this advice so that we start to see Indian teams finishing events, rather than trying to bite off too much and failing to complete.

You have said that you have already built a car with a 350 engine. Why don't you enter that? Or at least use that engine to refine a vehicle and notch up your first event completion? Then you can build on the knowledge you gain as the first(?) Indian team to complete all events. You would blow everyone away on cost, you'd do fine in the Fuel Economy event, from Ben's point of view you can see that the judges are wanting to see objective analysis in the design event, and pretty well the only major disadvantage would be the acceleration event. I reckon you could easily score at least 600 points, and in most comps that will bring you a lot of credibility and maybe a top 10 place.

I hear of a lot of Indian teams concerned about their lack of resources in their home country, and I note that you bring up the issue of knowledge of Honda and Yamaha engines. This is a fair point. But you do have motorcycle manufacturers in your own country, and I can't see why an Indian manufacturer (Royal Enfield, Bajaj, etc) would not want to sponsor or help out an Indian university in an international competition. And a reliable 25-30hp engine is a lot more competitive than a Honda that isn't running.

Please take the above as constructive - I just think that respectable competition finishes are a lot closer than you are willing to believe.

Cheers,

[ben]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silverback:
Yes Ben, I get that point...

But even with limited testing on a component the team believe that it will work... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And there in lies your mistake. Believing something will work when an objective analysis of the situation suggests it won't.

As a design judge the biggest mistake I see is people building cars they don't have the resources to build well. I also say that as someone who made the same mistake as a student because a fellow team member really wanted to build a carbon tub, when we didn't have the resources to.

In the end we built a space frame in 6 days and finished 13th overall at FS, but we would have been top 10 easily if we'd; A - finished endurance and B - bitten the bullet earlier and accepted our lot.

As an aside - the teams with carbon tubs often do well because you can't finish that type of car without doing the sort of objective analysis the judges want to see so they do well in design.

If spaceframe cars have the same amount of objective analysis they'll score just as well and be just as fast on track, it's just that it's more possible to build a functioning tube frame car without doing that work, so lots of teams don't bother.

A big team missed FS this year because they crashed their carbon tub car a week or so before comp and couldn't repair it. Another team had a big crash at a similar time and rebuilt their spaceframe car and competed well. There's a lesson there.

Ben

[JD232]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You have said that you have already built a car with a 350 engine. Why don't you enter that? Or at least use that engine to refine a vehicle and notch up your first event completion? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Geoff, We would have entered that car, if we didnt have a completed car fit with a honda cbr600, working well and under the fsae rules as well as we could check!! The solution to the engine problem as I see it is not an Enfield (or Bajaj, who dont make any engine with an hp of 35) but three extra months of hard work... and of course better management with small compromises. There are enough FSAE competitions around the globe, you just wait for the next one, instead of rushing the car for earlier one..

We could have rushed the car for any of the FSAE west, FS UK, or FS Germany.. but we will go for FSAE Japan, just for the extra time it gives us...

[By the way Geoff, most of my team are totally inspired by your work at RMIT, one of them is even talkin of applying at RMIT for postgrad, http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif]

In an article Pat Clark wrote, a team argued "why use a 600cc engine when a 450cc engine can win outright". Pat Clark's response, "I see this as justification of laziness"

Well whatever we are, we are not lazy. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[PatClarke]

Arpit,
Do NOT quote me out of context!

Geoff and I are good friends and anything I have written or said about RMIT is a matter of record!

For the record, and I have discussed this often with Geoff, RMIT's design solutions are not those that I would choose. However, I fully resspect their choices and heartily applaud their success. Let me tell you, there is no animosity between the RMIT team and/or their faculty advisor or past m,embers such as Geoff, and the suggestion that there might be is NOT appreciated.

I watched RMIT struggle up from a poor team with no money and little support (sound familiar?) Instead of whining about it on public forums and telling the world how hard things are, the team, ably led by Geoff, set out in a new direction, one I was critical of at the time, and have become one of the preeminent FS/FSAE teams in the world. When RMIT won their first event in the UK Geoff and I wept for joy together! We mourned that Carroll Smith was not there to see it. They had proved that a lightweight single cylinder car COULD win, and have repeated the victory at least three more times.

I started this topic by letting struggling Indian teams know that the Enfield India team was releasing a new fuel injected engine that might meet the needs of Indian teams. Not just for an engine, but for the teams to form strategic relations with a company that doesn't want to be seen as makers of poor quality product forever.

However. what seems to be an Indian trait of thinking 'The whole world is beating up on us' seems to have hijacked the thread.

By the way, a 'Silverback' is a Gorilla. I'll make no more comment.

Am I upset? You bet!

Pat!

[JD232]

Mr. Clark

Sir, With due respect, you misunderstood the intent of my post! I am really sorry if I have offended you in any way. At the time of quoting you, it wasnt in my mind that RMIT uses a 450cc and neither was it my intent to criticise using a 450. I am too young, too inexperienced to be doing that.

Also, like I have mentioned, me and my team are inspired by RMIT. We love their work and hope to someday accomplish their level of worksmanship.

Whatever my posts might have indicated, I do not believe we have it harder than any other team in the world. I was merely trying to communicate problems we have faced while taking the decisons and the thought process that went behind those decisons. Maybe I have said more than I should have and I apologise for that.

Regards
Arpit

P.S. I know silverback is a gorilla. In fact I do look like a gorilla http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif