06 Taboo- UTA Aero Leader takes tech to Cornell?

[RagingGrandpa]

Someone passed me a picture at 05 Detroit that was supposedly showing UTA's ex-aero leader, now in Graduate study at Cornell, sitting on the 2005 Cornell car, equipped in testing with large wings front and rear. What's this all about guys?

[RagingGrandpa]

Someone passed me a picture at 05 Detroit that was supposedly showing UTA's ex-aero leader, now in Graduate study at Cornell, sitting on the 2005 Cornell car, equipped in testing with large wings front and rear. What's this all about guys?

[Denny Trimble]

Sounds like UTA and Cornell's concern, not ours...

[Chris Boyden]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">sitting on the 2005 Cornell car </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Would that be Dan from Yugoslavia? He's a hell of a nice guy. We had a few beers with him last time we went to UTA Texas Autocross Weekend.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

oooo, spy picts, lets see the wings

[CMURacing - Prometheus]

ahh but i bet it'll be like gascoyne going to toyota...uta will still be aero king (renault), and cornell will take 3-4 years to make it even close to working.

[NoH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CMURacing - Prometheus:
ahh but i bet it'll be like gascoyne going to toyota...uta will still be aero king (renault), and cornell will take 3-4 years to make it even close to working. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couple of things to note here.

1. 'Aero King' is a great title. Look at the last 5 years. UTA has not placed higher than Cornell. Obviously, the aero king's reign (started in 2001) isn't quite 'working'.

2. Check out Cornell's 95 and 96 entries.

Now correlate winning with winged cars:
92,93,97,98,01,02,04,05 Cornell, no wing
03 wollongong, no wing
00 UTA, no wing
99 University of Akron, unknown
95,96 UTA, no wing
94 University of Michigan - Ann Arbor, no wing, though they had some interesting wings from 89-93)
91 Virginia Tech, no wing

I'm with Denny, let UTA and Cornell worry about it


NoH

[jdstuff]

Just thought that I'd complete NoH's info...

'99 University of Akron, no wing

http://coel.ecgf.uakron.edu/sae/formula/results/1999car.jpg

[buddy]

jdstuff,

did those side pods have a wing profile? I remember seeing them at comp. and not having enough time to go over and inspect closer...

buddy

[BeaverGuy]

I had heard rumors about Cornell having wings up until the last week before competion and saw the picture in question briefly. I doubt however that wings would impede Cornell's chances of winning again. Though, they haven't had a three-peat yet.

This does bring up a more important question though. If you go to another school and work on their FSAE team what knowledge and information do you bring with you?

If you design a revolutionary part do you take the whole design with you or just the principles of your design. If you start up a program would it be acceptable to take designs that you didn' neccesarily work on? Where do we draw the line on "trade" secrets?

[B.K.]

Cornell has done aero testing on and off for the past fifteen years and has competed, as NoH pointed out above, at least two entries with wings. I don't know anything about a former UTA guy being at Cornell, and I think that would have made the alumni rumor mill, but maybe I'm out of the loop by now.

As everyone knows, at FSAE competition speeds it is very tough to balance the added weight and raised CG height from wings vs. tractive benefits of aerodyanmic downforce. For teams that don't have lots of experience in aero, you have to throw a lot of manufacturing man hours and added car complexity onto the scale as well, and I think that helps make the decision for Cornell, same as many other schools.

Interesting points about switching schools, Josh. I think there's something of an implicit confidentiality agreement in that situation, especially when it comes to designs that you didn't work on, like you said. Giving away designs that your former teammates or previous members of your old team had developed wouldn't be kosher. Gently pointing your new teammates in the right direction, though, there's nothing wrong with that. Fine line, eh?

I'll actually be in that exact situation very soon, as I start graduate studies this fall at a certain Big 10 school with an FSAE team. But luckily for Cornell, I never was much good at the design side of things. I might be able to lend a helping hand with the manufacturing this winter, though.

And no, RagingGrandpa, I won't be going to Michigan, so you'll be free to continue trolling with threads about Cornell "taboos," sending out "Suck It Cornell" pictures and the like. Fired up the 2005 team pretty well, wouldn't you say? Maybe they'll send you a sponsorship poster with that big silver Cup on it to thank you for your motivational help.

[jdstuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buddy:

did those side pods have a wing profile? I remember seeing them at comp. and not having enough time to go over and inspect closer...
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No wing profile, but they were ducted to provide better cooling. That car cooled like a champ...it'll run at 190F all day long. The body's back in the late 90's were all thin-gage sheetmetal...a bit heavier than the glass/cabon process we do now, but a hell of a lot easier to make. And the cost judges LOVED it, because we said they would be stamped in a manufacturing process.

[Dick Golembiewski]

RE: Cornell and aerodynamics:

Me thinks some folks don't know Dr. George's background...

Have a close look at the author of some of the few papers on generic GE aero available...

There was the "sucker" car as well.

While these projects are the students' and not the faculty advisor's (although we occasionally see just the opposite - especially in one case) me thinks one could go to worse places for guidance on aerodynamics. &lt;Grin&gt;

[Cement Legs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by NoH:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by CMURacing - Prometheus:

1. 'Aero King' is a great title. Look at the last 5 years. UTA has not placed higher than Cornell. Obviously, the aero king's reign (started in 2001) isn't quite 'working'.

NoH </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont think the results can conclusively say that Aero King isnt working based on your statement. The fact that they havent beaten Cornell could be attributed to a number of factors. Perhaps their aero work has helped them plave several positions higher in each of those year. I wouldnt even say that was an educated guess. apples =&gt; apples; oranges =&gt; oranges. I would be interested in knowing if they have done any testing or driver training with and without their aero parts and what differences they were getting?

I would also disagree about the confidentiality statement made earlier. If you have any info in between yours ears to make your current team achieve better results lay it on the table. There is nothing that we have done that hasnt been done by someone else already so it's not like patents are being ignred. If you can show someone whom you are working with a better way to attach rod A to point B go for it. One thing for sure, everyone one if Formula SAE does have to pay homage to those that have come before us and moved motorsports to where they are today.

[Big Bird]

What sort of a low-life would leave their team-mates to join another team. And taking team secrets? Disgraceful behaviour.....



**** Newsflash, December 2006. Monash and RMIT enter identical winged singles in FSAE-A. Cars have 11.5 inch wheels. Design judges face difficult task of seperating two cars on color preference. Riots ensue. *****

[Scott Wordley]

**** Newsflash, December 2006****
Monash also win cost event with a record low pricing of $5000 and the most "comprehensive" report ever seen. The report was one page long and contained the following 2 receipts:

$4900, RMIT Racing, FSAE car, 1 of.
$100, Paint Shop, Blue Paint, 2 litres.

Cost judges were dubious as to whether you could find paint that cheap.

[Wack Attack]

Let's just say that the wings sucked and was a waste of time in terms of time, resources, and manpower (manufacturing, troubleshooting, implementation). Plus the grad student was not dedicated enough and did not put the required amount of time needed for it to be effective. A lot of time, resources, and manpower could've been put to much better use testing other stuff and making them more reliable. I hate wings.

[Jon Huddleston]

Sounds like your team put their trust in a member that wasn't trust worthy at all....

No, it wasn't Dan, but someone who had wrote their thesis on Fluent analysis of UTA's wing.