What machine shop facilities are available to your program?

[Jersey Tom]

Curious. Machining is my thing as a Sophomore with my first year on the CU FSAE team. Most of the time we have to use assorted student shops on campus, which are open 9-5. Bridgeports with DROs, Hardinge or two, few other mills and lathes in various stages of disrepair, two Milltronics VMCs (3 and 4 axis) with a spindle that tops out at 5k rpm and a rapid travel thats far from, Hurco VMC which isnt all that bad but spindle tops out at a measly 8k, and a Milltronics CNC lathe which doesn't seem to like people. All of the above stuff is shared by the entire college of engineering so time on them is usually limited.

Just this semester we got our first dedicated SAE machine, donated to us by the dean's office. Grizzly brand knee mill. Belt driven, limited traverse, and we have no tools so we scrounge or I use my own set of end mills. It's a piece...but just having it and being able to run it 24/7 is tremendous.

So what kind of stuff do you guys have free reign on?

[GTmule]

We share a crappy, worn out mill with an old DRO, a WORN OUT lathe that liek to break down, and a limited amount of worn, burnt, cheap, or just crappy tooling with the baja team (one of who'se members, when turning brake rotor's on the lathe comented: "Ya gotta get the metal read hot for it to cut well, it gets softer that way"). Un fortuantely our car will probabally LOOK like that's we have, too.

I guess I neglected to mention: ONe chineese micrometer, a cheap pair of digital capiers, and a ruler comprises our inspection equipment. We also have a TIG welder, A Mig, and Ox-Ace setup, and shoddy bender, a crappy vertical bandsaw, a MUCH crappier vertical bandsaw, and two shoddy drill presses with varying degrees of worn out chucks (mill too, for that matter).

[Denny Trimble]

We have two or three "shop masters" trained each year to open the department's student shop after hours. The facilities include:

Mills:
1 Bridgeport 3-axis CNC mill (200ipm, 4200RPM, 30x12x5, <300k program size limit)
1 ProtoTrak 2-axis CNC Mills (soon to get 2 more)
2 Bridgeport manual mills with DRO's
2 Old, worn-out manual mills

Lathes:
1 ProtoTRAK CNC Lathe
5 Manual lathes with DRO's, set up with 3-jaws, 4-jaws, collet chucks, and faceplates (we try to keep one of each chuck on the lathes at once)
1 Big Old Monarch Lathe from 1943

Welding Area:
2 TIG machines, 1 MIG, oxy-acetylene
1 Chop Saw that tried to kill Travis last night

Saws:
2 vertical band saws, one set up for AL, one for FE
1 horizontal band saw, 12" DOC capacity

Drill Presses:
1 Morse #4 taper radial arm drill press
3 1/2" chuck drill presses

Wood Shop
Band saw, table saw, jointer, planer, sanders, lathe

Aluminum Foundry (sand casting)

Grinding / deburring / sandblasting area

CNC Plasma Cutter (still getting it up and running, hasn't made any parts for the car yet)

Manual tool room - drills, taps, hammers, files, wrenches, etc

Measurement equipment, a good assortment

Layout area with surface plates

Scales

Then, there's the area we store / work on the cars. Lots of bench space, cabinets, tools, drill press, grinder, etc.

[Tony K]

Ah yes... the big old Monarch lathe, we happen to have 2 of those, probably my most favorite lathe we have. A bit tempermental at times, but super solid. In addition to the regular mills, lathes, saws, welders, and tools, we also have a CNC mill (although not a nice enclosed box type), a CNC lathe, 2 plastic injection molders, a plastic thermoformer, full composites lab with autoclave and numerous ovens (one large enough for the whole chassis), and a foundry for sand casting. The nicest part though is the 14,000 square foot building we inherited not too long ago that gives us a bit of room to play with. It used to be an old aircraft hangar, but it's pretty sweet regardless. And I'd have to say it feels pretty good to be able to gloat about it in a post that was started by someone at CU. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.engr.colostate.edu/me/motorsport/PE_Facilities.htm

[GTmule]

Damnit, I'd be happy with a deph micrometer, a good drill chuck for the mill, and ONE sharp end mill, most days.

[Kirk Feldkamp]

Denny, you're making me want to cry. I toured your shop when I was applying to colleges, and apparently the admissions lady didn't know how to sell the club very well. I thought you guys had very few resources. Shows how stupid I was!

Cal supports us with a 9-5 student machine shop that has 5 lathes (1 LeBlond, 2 pieces of garbage, a Monarch, and a DRO Jet. There are 5 bridgeports, all with DRO and 2 with 2axis Millstars. Then there is the usual assortment of drill presses, sheet metal tools, a bandsaw, 2 grinders. We also have access to a 3 axis Hass and an ABS printer, but on a pretty limited basis. Out at the garage (15-20 minute DRIVE from campus) we have a TIG welder, bandsaw, OLD BURLY lathe, a drill press, shear/brake/roll, carbide chop saw, and an assortment of air tools and grinders. We could really use a mill and a lathe that spins faster than 450rpm out at the garage. Boy, let me tell you how much it sucks to try to make parts quickly when you don't have the right tools whenever you need them. This is what we've assembled from NOTHING in the last 3 years, so maybe after the next 10-15 we can catch up to a jugernaut like UW.

-Kirk

[Alastair Clarke]

We can use the student workshop pretty much 24/7, since I've got appropriate qualifications which means they're happy for me to run the shop out of hours.

It has 2 Bridgeports with DR0, 2 Colchester lathes, 1 Smart & Brown lathe, bandsaw, bench drills etc etc. Also, we can borrow pretty much any bits of tooling we might need from the main workshop.

We've also got (for our exclusive use) two bench CNC machines (3 axis mill and a lathe), which perform way above their size. I try and keep these running making bits whenever I'm in the workshop.

We can also get access to a full size 3 axis mill when needed - for instance we machined a low-profile sump on it.

So we don't do too badly, but, as usual, we'd love more toys!!!! The only downside is I seem to live in the workshop at the moment!

Cheers

Alastair

[Dan Bajwa]

We have the following equipment at our fairly large shop:

(3) Haas Tool Room Mills (4000 rpm, 3-axis)
(1) Haas Tool Room Lathe (1800 rpm, 2-axis)
(2) Trak Mills (3600 rpm, 3-axis)
(2) Trak Lathes (2200 rpm, 2-axis)
(1) Bridgeport Manual
(5) Various manual lathes...including the "Russian".

And other stuff, including a surface grinder, cylindrical grinder, NC plasma/flame cutter, portable plasma cutter, a 300 amp TIG machine, two 300 amp MIG machines, large hydraulic shear, etc.

It's a pretty good situation, although we are only limited to use during shop hours...

Dan Bajwa
Queen's University

[jack]

lets see...

hacksaw
stick welder
duct tape
uni-bit
large hammer

i might of forgotten something, but i think thats all of it...

[Jersey Tom]

(5) Various manual lathes...including the "Russian".

Oh my. The Russian. That sounds excellent.


And I'd have to say it feels pretty good to be able to gloat about it in a post that was started by someone at CU.

I'm sure. And I'm happy you folks up there have nice facilities.

But last year, seems we outplaced you guys by a wide margin when our machine tooling was limited to one old crappy drill press http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Have fun in Foco.

[Lyn Labahn UW-Madison]

Here is a short video tour of our facilities. (http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~sae/multimedia/shop.mov)

You can see some shots of our Dyno Cell and Control Room, and some of the various tools I mention later.

The following are shared between Baja, Formula, FutureTruck, and Snowmobile at our school:

Manual Endmill w/ DRO
Manual Bridgeport Lathe
Craptastic Drill Press
Old Bandsaw that snapped the main shaft after installing a 5hp electric motor (Used to be 1.5 or so)
Horizontal Bandsaw
3 Grinders
Combination Belt/Disc Sander
2 Miller TIGs
1 Large Miller Aluminum MIG
1 Regular MIG
HAAS 20HP 3-axis CNC Mill
Bridgeport CNC Lathe
Large and Small Powdercoating oven
Spraybooth
Lots of Hand Tools, Drills, Grinders, Ratchets etc.

The school has shop that is availible to all students at various hours:

Million Year old 3ft Shear
Extra Crappy Hand Sheet Metal Brake
Various Manual Lathes, Mills and Drill Presses
A full woodshop
Automated surface Grinder
2 ProtoTrax 2-axis CNC Mills
Sandblaster

[Eddie Martin]

There are some cool facilities out there.
We have access to the uni machine shop 8am - 4pm. It has a reasonable range of equipment, nothing cnc though and we are only allowed to use a small amount of the lathes and mills if we are trained up and the workshop guys trust us.

Student machine shop. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif That ain't going to happen.

Our workshop is pretty big. It has a very good dyno set up. A crappy drill press, a bench grinder, good selection of hand tools, MIG welder, drop saw, ping pong table, a hand drill and a dremel that sometimes works.

[rwolcott23]

For the SAE programs we have two TIG welders that are excellent (Miller). We also have a host of hand tools and grinders etc. but no machine tools of our own. We do have full use of the ME machine shop which includes:

New ('04) 10Hp Fadal 4 axis milling machine with 10,000 rpm spindle and CNC indexer

HAAS 4 axis milling machine w/ 7500 rpm spindle

Bridgeport CNC EZ-Track mill (3 axis?, 3500 rpm)

2 Hardinge tool room lathes with DROs and all tooling (quick change tool holders, 4 jaw etc...)

2 Monarch 13x36 manual lathes w/ DRO, collet chucks, 4 jaw, etc...

4 Bridgeport mills w/ DRO, in pretty good shape.

TIG, MIG, and Oxy welding area

Sheetmetal brakes, shears, and rollers, etc...

Indexing heads, rotary tables, boring heads etc...


Funny thing is, we are always wishing we had more but it appears we are doing just fine. From late fall through the winter term the shop is open 8:00 am to 9:00 pm.

Bob

[Cement Legs]

We've got lots of safety glasses http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Sam Zimmerman]

1 Haas 4 axis CNC mill
1 Bridgeport 3 axis CNC mill
3 Bridgeport manual mills
1 Haas CNC Lathe
1 Bridgeport CNC Lathe
3 Manual Lathes
Precision grinder
TIG
MIG
Drop saw
Band saw
Drill presses, grinders, sanders, etc.

Everybody on the team has access to the shop and to our machinist, who kicks ass.

[mizzouracing]

We have a shop that is open from 8-5 mon-fri
pretty good setup but no CNC

2 Bridgeport DRO (about 2000 end mills) and all
attachments you can think of
One mill from the forties, still runs good
three lathes including the cadilac
all with dorian post
a surface grinder
a horizontal mill
drill presses
press
various grinders
sandblaster
stomp shear
hydraulic shear
TIG (Miller) MIG and Oxy Ace
Plasma cutter
punches breaks and roller
couple of band saws
table saw
radial arm saw
and any hand tool you can think of

Every thing we have is really old but our machine shop manager keeps it all in really good shape by making the people who break stuff fix it them self. Stuff stays nice that way.

[UKSAE]

Man you guys got it nice
here is a list of the stuff we have
room-
25*10(maybe+/-)
3 electrical outlets all 110-120 volt
tools-
Ban saw from harbor freight (always breaks)
lincoln mig welder
craftsman 150 pc socket set (just aquired)
some files
2 angle grinders
full open/box end wrenches.
wire crimpers
some pliers
Thats it.

[Wilso]

We at UT Austin have it pretty good. We have full access to the student machine shop in the basement of the ME building during the week and only have to check out a key each weekend.
The shop has the following:
6 bridgeport mills, at least two are always good and working
6 lathes, not sure what kind, usually in good shape.
2 band saws
CNC Lathe and mill but none of us know how to work it
In our garage we have a good selection of hand tools but the grad students "share" them.
We also have our own grinder, chop saw, Miller TIG, PC and laptop for engine management.
We have about 5' x 10' of real estate in the graduate dyno room with a decent eddy current dyno.
Sort of on the same topic, what are teams opinions on trailers? We have really nice tandem axle gooseneck, probly 28 feet, with attic, but our truck is a 1/2 ton Z71 that came from the ethanol vehicle challenge. We've thought about downsizing the trailer, but this year we are renting a better truck to pull it.

[Sam Zimmerman]

It is too bad that the organizers of the competition do not enforce the following rule:


Vehicles entered into Formula SAE competitions must be conceived, designed, and fabricated by the students without direct involvement from professional engineers, automotive engineers, racers, machinists or related professionals.

One of the most valuable parts of the FSAE competition is the knowledge gained when students have to make their own parts. I know that some schools are not allowed to operate their school's machines, but these schools would be much more likely to allow the students in the shop if the students had to provide proof at competition that they machined their own parts.

Are all schools on an equal footing when some abide by the rules and build their parts (including CNC parts) while others do not have to make this time commitment?

[SR-Mike]

I think its more than a simple time commitment issue, if that was a rule we would definitely not be able to enter a car. Our facilities extend to a decent TIG welder, a drill and loads of hand tools. That's it!!

For a student to be allowed any access to machine tools they need to be time served and still access is very limited to the extent it isn't worth the hassle. So all our machining work is either done manually by the university technicians or we pay for them to be CNC'd outside our department. That is on top of some external work some of our sponsors help us with.

I don't think that particular rule change would fit in with the UK's health and safety executive's plans some how. Although it would be nice.

We've got a radio though so its all good!

Mike

[Skippy]

We have access to basic hand tools,
After some training we are allowed to use
Pedestal Drill
Linisher
Guilotine
Bender

Getting the training is another thing, they make us do it again every year, no one'll do it for us, and each time we think we have it sorted out admin finds something else to winge about.
Luckily, the workshop guys are pretty good to deal with, They have a five axis mill, NC Lathe, and a five axis lathe, they do good work when they get round to it (six week min lead time at the moment.)

[Sam Zimmerman]

Originally posted by SR-Mike:
if that was a rule we would definitely not be able to enter a car. Our facilities extend to a decent TIG welder, a drill and loads of hand tools. That's it!!

I don't think that particular rule change would fit in with the UK's health and safety executive's plans some how. Although it would be nice.

Mike

Not to be too harsh, but how long have you been working on a car without reading the rules? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

What I quoted is not a rule change I am proposing, it is a rule. See 2.4.1 in the rules (a.k.a. design constraints) that you are supposed to be designing around. If you are not machining your own parts, you are violating the rules of the competition, that is a fact. Don't worry; they don't enforce the rules that you don't read. I just wish they would. The schools that machine their own parts spend hundreds of hours in a machine shop. It is an invaluable experience but there is no denying that it puts them at a great time disadvantage compared to having someone else making all your parts.

[Jarrod]

we have recently got hold of a small lathe and mill, both a bit average, that we can use in our workshop, and a big 3 phase TIG, and since we aren't allowed to use the faculty workshop, we have had a deal running since the start where all team members go to TAFE (trade school) 8 hours a week and learn the skills and get machine access. Since 03 we have also done CNC TAFE 5 hours a week. Just because the uni restricts machine access doesn't mean the cause is lost.

[raska]

Realistically, some (I bet many) schools would not be able to have any CNC'd parts without having a machinist enter, and check over the code for a given part. If you owned a nice machine like that, would you let some student spend a week figuring out how to use it while you have a backup of parts, drive the bed into the head every so often, on you're multithousand dollar machine? I wouldn't either. If only all schools, who inevidbly probably all have CNC machines kicking about, would be more responsive to our projects. So if you're talking about disadvantages, number one would be equipment, which boils down to money, but we already knew that.

If rules are made to keep the cars withing bounds, and fair competition, to better put all teams on a level playing field as far as time commitment and monetary commitment, maybe no computer numberic controlled machining should be allowed on the car. Futhermore, I would argue that the computer is the machinist already. It's controlling every tool change, every cut based on what you as a FSAE competitor want.

In fact, I looked up "machinist" on dictionary.com. 1. One who is skilled in operating machine tools.
2. One who makes, operates, or repairs machines Ok, great. Sounds like a good definition to me. So what does "One" mean I wonder. Is it a human being? If so my idea of the computer being the machinist goes out the window according to..."the man" I guess it is who sets the rules for the english language. One: Being a single entity, unit, object, or living being. A machine is a single entity, and it's definitely a [nice] unit, I don't need to continue my dictionary.com trek to confirm my suspicions further.

So the bottom line in my understanding of the rule, is if a CNC machine made one of your conceived, and designed product on your car, you're cheating.

As far as time in the machine shop, I agree that it is a heck of a lot of time needed, and I would hate to see a car come that was made by professional machinists, I can't really think of the reason why though. Jelously I guess, because I wouldn't feel they could really call that car "their own." I think a car that came with every single component CNC machined, would be awesome, probably because it was as close to perfection as far as a machined shape goes, as possible. I'd be jelous of the team that had access to that, but it would probably just be some wierd human trait that differed a CNC'd part vs a human machists parts, because I bet there would be cases I could not visually tell the difference. I guess it would be because I could concievably make that CNC'd part just as well and on tolerance in the same amount of time as that team did. So the playing field is more level. But put me up to a machinist, and you've introduced an unlevel playing field in the human skill part of things. That already exists though naturally, so I really don't know what I'd be so bitter about.

[EgyptianMagician]

Are you sure you haven't studied under the "great" Bernie Ecclestone ? Sounds like you'd be a shoe-in to work in Formula 1 with all the rule interpretations and all http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif




Originally posted by raska:

In fact, I looked up "machinist" on dictionary.com. 1. One who is skilled in operating machine tools.
2. One who makes, operates, or repairs machines Ok, great. Sounds like a good definition to me. So what does "One" mean I wonder. Is it a human being? If so my idea of the computer being the machinist goes out the window according to..."the man" I guess it is who sets the rules for the english language. One: Being a single entity, unit, object, or living being. A machine is a single entity, and it's definitely a [nice] unit, I don't need to continue my dictionary.com trek to confirm my suspicions further.

So the bottom line in my understanding of the rule, is if a CNC machine made one of your conceived, and designed product on your car, you're cheating.

As far as time in the machine shop, I agree that it is a heck of a lot of time needed, and I would hate to see a car come that was made by professional machinists, maybe out of jelousy, or other reasons.

[raska]

Originally posted by EgyptianMagician:
Are you sure you haven't studied under the "great" Bernie Ecclestone ? Sounds like you'd be a shoe-in to work in Formula 1 with all the rule interpretations and all http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


It's a crying shame Formula 1 doesn't know what they are missing.

[James Waltman]

Originally posted by raska:
In fact, I would argue that the computer is the machinist already...I see no difference...

Raska (Jovan?),
There is a huge difference. Trust me.
I think my buddy Sam is just getting grumpy in his old age. Sam do you have any west coast trips planned yet?

In the next few days I'll put together a list for our shop equipment. I just can't let everyone show us up.

[raska]

Jovan and I hang out in a large ex-janitors closet we call our office all day, but my name is Martin Raska.

I shouldn't have said "I see no difference". I edited that out of my original post. My brain isn't all that it can be right now. It's too late.. or early.. or something. No doubt I see differences in using a CNC machine yourself, compared to handing it off to Joe Machinist down the street, but in terms of the rules, I think I will maintain that a computer is a machinist when coupled to a CNC machining machine.

[Sam Zimmerman]

Originally posted by raska:
Realistically, some (I bet many) schools would not be able to have any CNC'd parts without having a machinist enter, and check over the code for a given part. If you owned a nice machine like that, would you let some student spend a week figuring out how to use it while you have a backup of parts, drive the bed into the head every so often, on you're multithousand dollar machine?

We have students working in our shop every day, working on a variety of projects. If they need a CNC they learn CAM code, do their own setup, and machine with a student mentor. I have helped with this for two years now and have never seen a student in front of a mill or lathe for a week, while parts are backing up, trying to figure out how the machine works.

The definition was a nice touch, though.

[Rob Davies]

In Lancaster, UK the students are allowed to use 9-5 when a supervising technician is around (so thats not during lunch or their tea breaks):

4 Manual Lathes
Mill
Tig / Mig welder
Drills
Angle grinder
Manual guillotine
Powered guilotine
Band saw
Sheet metal bender
Tube bender

There are a few technicians about that use the machines in their workshop that we cant including a Bridgeport 2.5 axis CNC machine. These technicians help with other third and fourth year and staff projects so its first come first served for getting stuff done.

The technicians do give us alot of help with advice and the CNC machining but after 5 the workshops get shut off and we cant do anything. The really frustrating part is that when we have lecture weeks we cant get anything done on the car since by the time we are done with lectures the workshops are closed. Once the chassis has been finished welding it can be moved from the welding shop into a small workspace in the computer room where we can do assembly 24-7 if we want but no power tools. When the event is getting near and we are panicking sometimes a lecturer or technician will stay late and we can work on the power tools and machines.

It would be great to learn how to use the CNC machine but in hours the technicians are working on it and since they can do it faster and they have alot of work being asked of them so of course they are just going to do it themselves plus there is the time to train us up and risk factor. I think getting a technician to make some parts for you is a little better (but far from ideal in terms of us learning stuff) than getting an outside company to make it as you can ask how they wrote the program and see it being machined.

When we were building the chassis we started by asking the technicians to use an end mill to scallop the tubes but soon realised that an angle grinder and some curved files were just as good and we didnt have to bother the technicians. A great deal of our parts will be produced on the manual lathes thats slower and less acurate than a CNC machine but thats all the students have access to. Then alot of parts will be made by hand.

One problem we really have is bending the tubes for the chassis as our manual tube bender is very basic and its hard not to crimp things. This year we drove around campus looking for something 1metre diameter to bend a tube around and found a bottle bank at the university hotel, that is one of my funniest and fondest memories this year as it was a great feeling when it came out just as we wanted.

The CNC machined parts will be

Uprights, hubs, diif holder, diff carrier, new alternator case and probably some other stuff ive forgot.

The one notable thing that we cant do in-house is splining. A member of the team got a quote for the splining at £600. This is one heck of a chunk of money and we wish we could do it ourselves.

So if you have the facilities to make stuff yourself I think it is by far the better option.

[Denny Trimble]

Originally posted by raska:
So the bottom line in my understanding of the rule, is if a CNC machine made one of your conceived, and designed product on your car, you're cheating.


That's ridiculous, and it's clear to me that you haven't used a CNC machine before. You need to know more about machining to program and operate a CNC machine than you need to know to run a Bridgeport manual mill. So, who's learning more? Students who use manual mills, or students who use CNC mills?

You should look up the definition of Red Herring if you're convinced your argument is sound.

We used to try to send out difficult machining work. Last year, I asked WWU to make our wheel centers, but it didn't work out because of everybody's time crunch. I made them myself, and learned a lot doing it. Now, we make everything in-house, and only send out splining work and heat treatment.

[Cement Legs]

I agree. There is no CNC machine made that can calculate what geometry to use to mount you engine to your differential until you tell it what to do. The only difference between hand mills and CNC is that if you are a little tired (that wouldnt include anyone from FSAE http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif) while you are working or making mental errors the machine is still going to follow the code THAT YOU WROTE. It will follow the directions you give it, just like the handles on a hand mill.

I have to agree with Denny, the argument that CNC is cheating is beyond rediculous. All it does is allow your designs to be represented more accurately. Last I checked we were all working on degrees not machinist's diplomas. Like it or not but when you are finished school the chances are that you will be tied to your desk writing reports not spinning steel....

[jack]

In the next few days I'll put together a list for our shop equipment. I just can't let everyone show us up.

uh..check out the first page man, allready posted our equiptment.

..although i did forget zip-ties

[markocosic]

I don't think that particular rule change would fit in with the UK's health and safety executive's plans some how. Although it would be nice.

There is absolutely nothing in UK law that doesn't fit with the rules - UK law gives you free reign on any piece of machinery you like, provided there's a head to pin the blame on if something goes wrong... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Insurers are a limitation sometimes (can demand that you have a piece of paper to know how to use a piece of kit before you're allowed to use it) but its a very backward university that would ever buy such a policy.

Free reign on everything they have here provided you can convince 'the boss' that you know how to use it. (8am-4.30pm) Free reign on everything that isn't expensive outside those hours by arrangement.

Handing a CNC program and lump of metal over to a tech to have it CNCed counts as having made it in my books - all they're really doing is naliing it to the bed as per your instructions and hitting the big red button if you've messed up! Different story if you clearly haven't got a clue how to make it - surely the judges would spot this?

[Sam Zimmerman]

Since I started this little tiff, I might as well weigh in again with a few (long) comments.

My main point is that if there is a rule, the judges should enforce it. With a couple of quick questions, I can tell if someone has never operated shop equipment, has a high school shop level of knowledge, or has the level of knowledge that comes with untold hours machining a variety of parts on a variety of machines. To have a rule that the overwhelming majority of teams ignore is ridiculous. Besides, for all the teams that complain about lack of machine shop access, I would bet the students would get the access if it was the only way to compete. Despite the fact that universities often act as though they hate the FSAE, most realize that these projects pay off in terms of recruiting, donations, and student retention. If not, there wouldn't be so many teams competing.

Equating a CNC machine to a professional machinist is like equating a solid modeling program to a professional engineer. Both are simply tools to be used as a means to an end. As someone who has spent the last three years making parts and/or teaching students how to make parts I can tell you that I can put the clumsiest student on a manual mill and they will get by without too much damage to themselves or the tooling. A CNC takes much more planning and attention to detail than manuals. The implication that a CNC machine magically makes parts without thought or effort on the part of the student is silly.

I strongly disagree that there is no difference between handing a machinist CAM code and a chunk of metal and machining it yourself. Making the parts teaches you to design for manufacturability, minimize tool changes, design a setup into a part, etc. These are things that you cannot effectively learn by handing a machinist a chunk of metal and some code. I have taught Principles of Lean Manufacturing in a classroom and have taught in the shop. Students get in when they are in the shop, they don't get it the same way in the classroom. Students who have spent a considerable amount of time in the shop instinctively think about setup and machine time as they are designing. Students without that experience do not.

Now, there is no more reason to argue because I am right. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Charlie]

Sam I understand what you are saying and I can appreciate it. However if you are strict with that rule no car is legal. AKA any car with a purchased part is illegal.

I would definitely encourage as much student fabrication as possible. But say you enforce that rule 100% excluding purchased off-the-shelf parts. You would see more off-the-shelf parts. That better?

In FSAE it is important to see the spirit of the rules instead of the letter. Otherwise you would have a competition that is too restrictive to meet it's intent. The intent is to get students working thier asses off towards a common goal, along the way learning more about engineering than they ever would have otherwise.

At Auburn we have no CNC equipment. It doesn't mean you don't learn about manufacturability. When you work with suppliers or sponsors you learn thier capabilities and they will recommend changes as well.

Still without CNC we did a lot on our own. In 2002 we made our own axles, even splined them ourselves. In 2003 our aluminum diff housing was done on a manual mill in house.

But we also made our own CVs, then sent them to get splined. OOPS! I guess in your mind we'd have been much better off just buying some from Taylor. We designed our own brake rotors and had them made. I guess off-the-shelf Wilwoods would have taught us more.

[Charlie]

On another note Sam, to say that you think it's a 'disadvantage' that you CNC your own parts, I'd highly disagree. I would have KILLED to have that kindd of thing and it would have been, if anything, a time saver. We made so many parts manually, not to mention that I personall drove 2 hours one way several times bringing machined blocks to our CNC sponsors, spend the time begging for parts to be made, etc. And I damn sure didn't learn anything useful about engineering doing that.

[Sam Zimmerman]

I think you misinterpreted a little Charlie. It is a great advantage educationally to have full machine shop access. It is also a huge advantage to have CNC over just manual equipment like you did. But it is a time disadvantage to machine your own parts vs. the teams with no machine shop access who have all their parts made. I wouldn't trade my situation for theirs, though.

With your setup, you likely spent more time machining than teams that have full access. But again, my main point is to enforce the rules or get rid of them. I hate un-enforced rules, not necessarily to the letter but I think we can agree that the spirit of this rule isn't enforced.

I wouldn't mind seeing the current rule going away and then trading the cost event for a manufacturing analysis event where the teams are judged on their drawing packages, manufacturing knowledge, and percent of parts manufactured by the students. This would also help to gain more FSAE teams machine shop access, which should be the goal.

[Sam Zimmerman]

For those who aren't old salts like Charlie and I, we had this same basic argument over the concept of the competition a year or two ago.

btw, are you going to try to judge next year at the Cali competition Charlie? You would be great at it.

[Moke]

Sam, can we please have $NZ10 000 to buy our new 5axis CNC milling centre?

We design our parts, tool paths etc and send them to our sponsor to machine where they check and run the operation. We have programs in place to teach team members how to do this. But we just can't afford a CNC machine.

If the rule was enforced the quality of cars would drop off, and a huge gap would appear between teams.

[markocosic]

The implication that a CNC machine magically makes parts without thought or effort on the part of the student is silly.

True - unless folks are handing the machinist the 3D model of what they want and the machinist is the one who ends up writing the CNC code and optimising it for manufacture?

Something that is more difficult to do with manually made parts.


Making the parts teaches you to design for manufacturability, minimize tool changes, design a setup into a part, etc. These are things that you cannot effectively learn by handing a machinist a chunk of metal and some code.

Yeah, I'll second that.

[Charlie]

I think the spirit of the rule IS enforced. I have not seen a car yet that I feel was not, overall, a student designed and fabricated item.

SAE is not a rule enforcer anyway. THings like this are impossible to enforce. You could easily dope tires, circumvent most rules without ever getting caught. It is the facilty advisor's job to make sure the students are following the non-technical rules.

As for "a time disadvantage to machine your own parts vs. the teams with no machine shop access who have all their parts made." I guess that depends on your situation, but like I said I spent entire days just bringing stock to our sponsors to machine, not to mention trips begging for help, trips back to ask about deadlines they couldn't keep, wondering if it was going to happen and organizing backup plans, sure didn't save me any time I promise you that.

I'd like to judge, depends on scheduling. I wanna go back to Oz too http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Jonathan D]

Originally posted by Charlie:
Sam I understand what you are saying and I can appreciate it. However if you are strict with that rule no car is legal. AKA any car with a purchased part is illegal.

I would definitely encourage as much student fabrication as possible. But say you enforce that rule 100% excluding purchased off-the-shelf parts. You would see more off-the-shelf parts. That better?

In FSAE it is important to see the spirit of the rules instead of the letter. Otherwise you would have a competition that is too restrictive to meet it's intent. The intent is to get students working thier asses off towards a common goal, along the way learning more about engineering than they ever would have otherwise.

At Auburn we have no CNC equipment. It doesn't mean you don't learn about manufacturability. When you work with suppliers or sponsors you learn thier capabilities and they will recommend changes as well.

Still without CNC we did a lot on our own. In 2002 we made our own axles, even splined them ourselves. In 2003 our aluminum diff housing was done on a manual mill in house.

But we also made our own CVs, then sent them to get splined. OOPS! I guess in your mind we'd have been much better off just buying some from Taylor. We designed our own brake rotors and had them made. I guess off-the-shelf Wilwoods would have taught us more.

Charlie:

You hit the nail on the head.

We're in a similar situation, in that we have access to manual mills and lathes with DROs, but no CNC equipment. This gives us the engineering decision of either simplifying designs so they can be machined in-house, or working with vendors outside the University. Either way, its an important lesson.

Working in-house we still gain a great appreciation about designing for manufacturability, and machining techniques. For more complex parts, we work with outside vendors. This gives us experience working with vendors, and learning from professionals well beyond our skill level. In the "real world" its important to know how to work with, and communicate with vendors, as well as cooridnate with their schedule.

Would it be nice if we had access to a full array of CNC equipment? Sure. However, part of being an engineer is learning how to solve a problem given a set of limitations.

[Jersey Tom]

The schools that machine their own parts spend hundreds of hours in a machine shop. It is an invaluable experience but there is no denying that it puts them at a great time disadvantage compared to having someone else making all your parts.

I wouldn't say it puts them at a disadvantage. I'd say it puts them at a large advantage if anything.

If you machine stuff in-house, you don't have to pay out of pocket for $75-100/hr job shop rates. You buy the material, machine it, and put it in the cost report.

You also gain a lot of DFM knowledge, which is SORELY lacking otherwise and is going to hurt you down the road either as students return year after year or graduate into industry. Don't care if you take classes on manufacturing processes and all this and that, there is no substitute for hands-on time.

You might even have a shorter lead time if you make something in-house. You can work all hours, and the designer is going to have the best knowledge of the part's functionality and critical features and where things can be much more lax. Arguably if your print is dimensioned and toleranced properly all that information should be there, but uh..that isnt always the case.

[Sam Zimmerman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The schools that machine their own parts spend hundreds of hours in a machine shop. It is an invaluable experience but there is no denying that it puts them at a great TIME disadvantage compared to having someone else making all your parts.

I wouldn't say it puts them at a disadvantage. I'd say it puts them at a large advantage if anything.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you missed the word TIME in there. I have basically stated all the same advantages you did in my posts.

Charlie made a good point that the teams who only have manual mill and lathe capabilities likely spend more time that teams that make all their own parts. I was speaking more of teams that turn all their drawings over to the school machine shop (or a business) and have the parts made. Those teams have a time advantage but don't get the experience and knowledge that teams with shop access get.

[Alastair Clarke]

I agree - from my experience of opening the workshop for our team members to make parts, time after time I've heard comments like "I didn't realise it could be this hard to make this", or "It's much easier on Solidworks".

I've found that after making a few parts themselves, either manually or on CNC, the ease of manufacture of the team members designs increases dramatically. I think this demonstrates the importance of practical experience for designers.

Cheers

Alastair

[MotoDave]

Originally posted by Alastair Clarke:
I agree - from my experience of opening the workshop for our team members to make parts, time after time I've heard comments like "I didn't realise it could be this hard to make this", or "It's much easier on Solidworks".


After a lot of frustraring work on the chassis, we have decided to invent a "constraint box" so we can constrain real parts just like in CADhttp://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Dud]

Drill press and bench grinder, and that is about it.

We have to beg and barrow to get machining done. If any one is looking to get rid of some old machines, we would love to take them off your hands!

[Brad Warner]

In our "SAE shop" we have a 1943 Monarch lathe w/ massive run out and we have a miniature drill press that won't turn slow enough for anything really useful. On weekdays between 9-4, when our shop supervisor actually decides to show up, we have another WWII era Pratt and Whitney mill we can use. Neither piece of equipment has DRO and the numbers on the dials are worn off or just don't exist. We spend most of our time looking for tooling that we can make work anyway, so we don't actually spend that much time on the machines....