First year team looking for guidance

[MEllisUNT]

Hello all, I am an ME student at the University of North Texas. This year is our schools first year for SAE and we are competing in the Baja competition. Everything is slowly coming along but we still plan on making it to the competition.

Next year we are planning on doing Formula. I have done a lot of research so far and am working on reading the entire rulebook. Several of us are working through all of the solid works tutorials as well as the formula tutorials. We plan on starting this project over summer and making it as basic as possible, probably no wings, maybe even an aluminum body if funds are limited to that. We are lucky enough to be in the same city as Peterbilt and they have agreed to do any 5-axis machine work we need for free! As far as sponsorship and money, what would be a good dollar amount to aim for as far as donations to build a very basic car. This will be our first year doing the car so we just want to make it there and not break anything.

Any guidance for a first year formula team would be much appreciated. Cheap products to look for, order of the process, etc.

Thanks,
Matt Ellis
UNT SAE

[bob.paasch]

Matt:

I advise both BajaSAE and FormulaSAE projects at OSU.

My first recommendation would be to stay in BajaSAE for a couple more years to get your project management, information transfer and fundraising processes improved to the point where you can execute a FormulaSAE project. You can plan on Formula being twice as much work and 5 times as expensive as Baja.

If you decide to do Formula next year, design the cheapest, lightest, simplest car you can. No aero. Steel tube chassis, steel a-arm suspension, aluminum or fiberglass body panels. For engine for a first year team, I would recommend a stock 600cc 4, Honda or Yamaha, running on 93 octane gasoline. Design a simple intake system and get it running as soon as possible. I would not underestimate the time required to develop your powertrain. ECU choice will have a large impact on project costs. Plan on spending some money and time on good electrical wiring, this is an area where Formula is 10 times more complex than Baja and the cause of many DNFs.

I will be at all three North American BajaSAE competitions this year, and would be happy to talk with your team.

[Pennyman]

Dr Paasch makes some very good points.

As someone who helped start a rookie FSAE team, I can tell you that it is possible to make a competitive car right out of the gate, but it takes a really exceptional team that is willing to make certain compromises to finish on time. Here's some of the things we learned our first year:

The vehicle will probably weigh more than 500lbs, but the tradeoff is reliability if your designs are robust (high FOS for critical components like suspension and drivetrain parts). The reason for robust designs is twofold: Firstly with no car to test on, the loads you'll be experiencing can't come from previous vehicle data, so your load cases have to be assumed. Second and more importantly, you'll probably experience "bloat" where the vehicle gets heavier than anticipated due to time constraints. Accounting for this in critical designs can reduce the likelihood of component failure.

Engine tuning can be accomplished with a number of off-the-shelf piggyback systems, and 4cyl power makes for a generally more reliable package for the effort required. Modifying the stock motorcycle harness shouldn't be out of the question. Never weld on the chassis with the ECU plugged in.

We used modified VW hubs and wheel bearings, which are essentially what Taylor Race Engineering designed many of their drivetrain components to interface with. We also sourced wheels that we didn't have to machine centers for.

If you have minimal experience with composites, expect to have at least have one major screw-up on your body. It takes weeks to shape molds by hand. Yes you do need another coat of wax on your mold. Ideally you would have the mold machined by an outside company, but in my case we didn't have the resources and it was faster to shape by hand. Sponsors generally don't care about your schedule.

I would highly recommend spectating at MIS or another FSAE competition to ask as many questions as possible. Take hundreds of photos. You don't know what you'll forget between seeing it at comp and when you actually have to implement your own solution. Things like how teams mount their firewalls, attach their body panels, secure their intake plenums and fuel tanks, and store their electronics are all things that you'll want several ideas for and can save weeks of brainstorming.

Don't underestimate how difficult it is to get through tech inspection. If there's any question about whether something may or may not pass tech, chances are it won't. Smooth sailing through tech inspection is critical.

That being said, being on a first year team is still one of the most rewarding things I've ever been a part of. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

Hi Matt,

Keep it simple. Don't worry about things like traction control, composites, modifying the engine, aero, etc. Also, I would recommend attending some of the seminars that SAE puts on specifically for the Formula competition. I am thinking of the FSAE Roadshow that Michael Royce does in conjunction with the PRI show.

Also, we love new teams. If you have any questions engine related, please feel free to contact us. We are very involved with FSAE and normally support up to 50 teams a year with all of the collegiate competitions.

Good luck.

[Z]

Originally posted by bob.paasch:
You can plan on Formula being twice as much work and 5 times as expensive as Baja.
Matt,

If you copy what everyone else in FSAE is doing, then it really will be "2x the work, and 5x the cost".

On the other hand, you might try building a "brown go-kart". (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/781103883?r=32720662151#32720662151) http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Z

[Michael Royce]

Matt,
I second what Bob Paasch says. KISS.

The Collegiate Roadshow presentations, some from 2006 and all of those from 2011, can be found on the official SAE web site at:
http: / / students.sae.org/competitions/formulaseries/roadshow.htm

Brian was a little mistaken, they were held this past December in conjunction with the IMIS show in Indianapolis, not the PRI Show in Orlando!

We are tentatively planning on having another Roadshow along with IMIS on Saturday December 8th. Topics and speakers are TBD.

There are 2 other web site with good sources of information:
- The SAE Detroit Section for their FSAE Workshop
- Mrs Royce's web site which has the FSAE Michigan Technical Inspectors' Seminar from May 2011. (Contrary to the belief of some, the tech inspectors want you to pass first time. So they would like all teams to look at this presentation to see what they are looking for.)

I will dig out the links for both of the latter.

[Michael Royce]

Matt,
Here are the other 2 links I promised.

The presentation given to the technical inspectors for the 2011 FSAE Michigan event can be found at:
http://web.me.com/smr01/fsae_t...ction/Technical.html (http://web.me.com/smr01/fsae_technical_inspection/Technical.html)

What the inspectors are looking for is no secret. So all teams are encouraged to look at this presentation to help them get through Tech Inspection. There are just a few Rule changes for 2012 so the vast majority of the presentation is still good for 2012. And it is good for Formula Hybrid teams too, as most of the rules are now common, at least in the chassis, IC engine and driver's equipment areas.

The presentations from the 2011 Formula SAE Workshop hosted by SAE Detroit Section in October 2011 can be found at:
http://www.sae-detroit.org/students/collegiate/

These presentations were:
- Competition Overview
- 2012 Rules Changes
- Presentation Event Overview
- A Team Organization Discussion
- Sponsorship
- Cost Overview
- Design Event
- Design Considerations
- Chassis 101
- Frame Design 101

Mrs royce will be changing her web site in about 3 months, so the first link will only be available until then. We hope to find a replacement. Stay tuned. Also, with the help from many of our friends in the FSAE & FS community, we should have help for teams in another format later this year. We will let you know what, when, and how to get it!

[MEllisUNT]

Thank you all for the great information. Our team will take your considerations to heart and let it be known that our moto is "KISS". We have decided to move forward with the formula car for next year, starting the day after the baja competition, and we are already getting more awareness from students in the past week.

We plan on having a recruiting meeting in mid-late April and will be looking for a few business/management majors to help with sponsorship.

The one thing that I am most concerned about is the 20mm restrictor for the intake. It seems that going single cylinder carburated would be the easiest method. Is there an engine that most teams use for single cylinder carburated? It seems like the most popular 4 cylinder engine for teams is the CBR 600.

Also, any good links for airflow and designing around this 20mm restrictor?

Really excited about this,
Matt Ellis
University of North Texas

[Francis Gagné]

I am not an engine guy whatsoever so I cant tell for the engine choice, but this year in order to save the time of redesigning a throttle body we opted for an off the shelf solution, might be helpful for you,

http://atpowershop.co.uk/catal...ttle-body-p-101.html (http://atpowershop.co.uk/catalog/formula-student-28mm-single-bore-throttle-body-p-101.html)

There may be other available solutions out there also.

As others have said keep it simple, and build it soon. For a first car you will get the most performance out of the tuning of the car and of driver practice. For that all you need is a reliable car, with simple and fast adjustments.

Good luck!

[bob.paasch]

Originally posted by MEllisUNT:
The one thing that I am most concerned about is the 20mm restrictor for the intake. It seems that going single cylinder carburated would be the easiest method. Is there an engine that most teams use for single cylinder carburated? It seems like the most popular 4 cylinder engine for teams is the CBR 600.


Carburated cars are rare in FSAE, as the carb has to be upstream of the restrictor. This plays havoc with the carburator's operation, and unnecessarily restricts power, as all your fuel has to go through the restrictor. Carburated singles are even more rare in FSAE. Restricted singles need large (2-4 liter) intake plenums to operate well. I wouldn't want that much air/fuel mixture waiting to blow up at the next intake backfire. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Plan on developing fuel injection.

As for injected singles, the popular FSAE motors are the Yamaha WR450, Honda CRF/TRX450, and the KTM 525. These singles are light, generally don't require a dry sump or other methods to control oil pressure, and exhaust design is dead simple. However, a used 450 single is twice the cost of a used 600/4, intake design and injector placement is much more critical, starter capacity is marginal, and they are operating much closer to their limit than a 4, hence my earlier recommendation.

[PatClarke]

Matt,
I would support the advice from Bob regarding the engine. What he hasn't mentioned is the singles are much more difficult to drive if the calibration is not spot-on. They tend to be snatchy at low RPM.

Another point, these 450/500 singles are really racing engines with a limited service life, so by the time they get to the second hand market, they are often trashed.

600s on the other hand need to be covered by a reasonable makers warranty. As the aspirations of the young throttle jockies usually far exceeds their abilities, there is no great shortage of wrecked bikes being parted out.

A late model (EFI) engine from any of the big four will do the job, though choosing a Honda or Yamaha will mean there will be better availability of help and advice from other teams.

Cheers

Pat

[Big Bird]

Just a little anecdote from my first FSAE here in Oz back in 2002. Tokyo Denki showed up with a Honda CRF450 single in their car. Their engine system to me was the simplest, easiest solution to the FSAE design problem I have seen. They simply cut an orifice plate with a 20mm hole in it, and shoved it in the intake boot in front of the carb. Standard loom, standard carb, off-the-shelf exhaust - a finished engine legal for FSAE competition with around one man-hour's work tops.

It ran terribly, as once it got to around 6000-7000 rpm the shock waves through the restrictor started playing havoc. But it ran, and posted endurance lap times within 5% of the winning car that year (Wollongong, the car which won Detroit the following year).

That was one of our inspirations in 2003 with our first single - we knew that if we didn't get the injection working, we had a simple back up option (the carb), that would see us through the event.

[Bemo]

Originally posted by PatClarke:
A late model (EFI) engine from any of the big four will do the job, though choosing a Honda or Yamaha will mean there will be better availability of help and advice from other teams.

Pat, don't give advice like that. It will increase the prices for these engines on ebay even more http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[MEllisUNT]

Some really great info here guys, I appreciate it very much! From the looks of it, we will explore what is involved in making the intake and exhaust for a 4 cylinder engine and compare time/cost of design to a single cylinder engine. It would be nice to have the option of buying the off the shelf one cylinder FSAE intake that already has the 20mm restrictor in it.

Now I need to research fuel injection. From what I understand, whether it be one cylinder or 4, if we use the stock computer for the given motor, the computer should compensate the fuel/air ratio for the 20mm air flow restrictor on its own. If not and we need to tune it, then we got a guy on the team that works at a shop with a dyno so we should be able to tune it.

Anyone have any good info or links to designing the intake and exhaust for a 4 cylinder EFI engine?

Matt Ellis
University of North Texas SAE

[scotty young Taylor Race]

Matt,

I live in Flower Mound ( yes,,,Flower Mound ). That is maybe 20 miles from ya.
And our shop is in Plano, Let me know what you guys need in the drive line department...

[Michael Royce]

Yes, the Tokyo Denki car at Carrum Downs was the first single we saw, and caused quite a stir.

What Goeff does not mention, and as a student at the time, he possibly was not aware of it, is that the car had no on board starter, and needed a push start. It was only allowed to run Endurance after significant discussion among the officials. Push starts are now officially banned. And, as Bob Paasch has mentioned, can be problematical getting a reliable starter.

[Z]

Matt,

First up, I think Geoff above was being way too modest in not insisting that you read his thread "Reasoning your way...", (second from top, page 1, Open Discussion). This is compulsory reading for all first year teams. Well, all the ones that want to enjoy their FSAE. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Since much of the above discussion has already focussed on the "necessary ballast" (only a small part of the project), you might also try Any way to objectively choose engine? (http://fsae.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/125607348/m/824105905?r=824105905#824105905) They are both long threads, but well worth it.

Both these threads give good reasons to suggest that a high horsepower engine is not necessary in FSAE. Especially not for a first year team. Briefly, you only have to drive 20 miles at an average of ~35mph to do really well. But you must finish all of that 20 miles...

I note everyone above has advised "KISS". But then many have gone on to suggest a heavyweight, high horsepower four, with a student designed and built four-throat-intake/plenum/restrictor-diffuser and exhaust. Not very "simple" in my book. Or else the suggestion has been a highly tuned MotoX single with fragile starter, and requirement for student designed bespoke EFI. Again, not the simplest.

Besides Briggs & Stratton, which can work, why not look at the legion of agricultural ATVs/Quad-bikes out there. I don't know what supply and costs are like in USA, but many of these come with ~500cc singles, carb or EFI, and a basic reliability that allows Farmer Brown to just climb on, press the button and go. Yes, I know most have CVTs, but that is "a good thing" (that is why Farmer Brown likes them http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). Or you can just run them with the clutch and direct chain drive.

Everyone says "KISS", but does that mean, "Keep Imitating Stupid Stuff"? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Z

(PS. Concentrate on corner speed, not high horsepower.)

[Mbirt]

Matt,

When I joined my team, it was our first year running the CRF450X and the engine lead had tested several restricted intake iterations using the FCR carburetor. The best setup which was still startable was a 1L volume that looked like a branch tuner perpendicular to the intake runner. It made around 30 hp and startability was great compared to most of our EFI setups since then. The lack of plenum volume will squash your torque curve, but you'll have a gentle, linear powerband that peaks near redline.

If the robustness of single-cylinder starters concerns you, check out the 2006+ Honda TRX450ER. It uses the larger-diameter Mitsuba SM-14 starter and >$100 Chinese replacements are available. If you want to go EFI right away, check out the Suzuki LT-R450. It was the first Japanese EFI 450 with electric start and its parts are often used for other EFI conversions. The challenge of creating your own triggering for the EFI system in the future is something you won't have to face if you begin with the right platform.

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

Matt,

If it were me and I was considering a single cylinder I would look very strongly at the Yamaha YFZ450R quad engine that came stock with fuel injection. It is robust, easy to tune and parts are inexpensive. We have used this engine/quad quite a lot with our GNCC riders. Our PE3 ECU is 'plug and play' with the stock harrness and doesn't require any modifications to run this engine.

[MEllisUNT]

Awesome, I will look into all of these suggestions. Next year is my senior year and I actually got our head of senior design to approve my group to do part of the Formula car as a senior design project. He said we could do drivetrain or suspension or chassis. I'm thinking if taking in the drivetrain as it seems to be pretty complex

[Z]

Matt, you say "I'm thinking of taking in the drivetrain as it seems to be pretty complex." !

What happened to "... our motto is KISS." ??? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Z

[Edward M. Kasprzak]

Originally posted by Z:
Matt, you say "I'm thinking of taking in the drivetrain as it seems to be pretty complex." !

What happened to "... our motto is KISS." ??? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Z

C'mon Z, give it a rest. I'm hearing a student whose interest is piqued, who wants to learn and who wants to challenge himself. All good things--why step on him?

Don't get me wrong: I'm all for KISS, as long as it means having a design that avoids being unnecessarily complex and is well understood. I didn't get the sense that the student was throwing away this concept.

Now, if the student said "I'm thinking of taking in the drivetrain because it sounds easy, I won't have to do much work and it will pad my resume" then I'd have a problem with him!

[Z]

Originally posted by Edward M. Kasprzak:
I'm hearing a student ... who wants to challenge himself.
...why step on him?
Edward,

I don't want to "step on him".

On the contrary, I just wish I could hear Matt saying,

"Hmmm..., how can we win this FSAE thing, OUTRIGHT!
... I know! We'll KISS everything!" http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Z

[MEllisUNT]

Yes that is a bit contradicting but... The reason I say I want to take on something complex is simply for the reason that I would be a part of it and probably the lead meaning I would watch over and manage the drivetrain knowing that a good job is done with my part of the project. Being a 1st year team, we need people that are dedicated to those complex areas like the drivetrain and what better motivation than a senior project where your grade depends on it?

As far as winning the competition outright... We know we are not going to do that. We would be happy to end up top 50%. We will probably be rolling up in a stock internal engine, sheet metal body, 600 lb car. Our goal is to finish each competition but not necessarily come in a top place... We are realistic.

[Jon Burford]

Hi,
It is really important that motivation is there. If you resign to building the absolute most basic thing and It doesn't interest you, you probably won't put that much effort in, you MAY find that you get much more done on a more complicated concept. Then again people might decide that it's too much work and give up.
It's a very delicate balance. with regards to KISS, I think this should only be partly applied.
You should think what is the best way of doing something and then find the most simple and appropriate way of achieving it.

Statistically it is probably best that you simply aim to finish everything etc etc but where is the fun in that??

Be very careful about what you choose to do, have a real think about what you think you can achieve, keeping in mind that EVERYTHING takes a lot longer than you think it will, budget a lot more time than you think.
Make sure you have enough dedicated people to get the job done. Don't leave any loose ends in the design, don't have the 'I'll sort it out later' attitude. It will come back and bite you, probably 2 weeks before the competition.

Also budget plenty of time for testing, testing is so important, drive as much as you can and learn about the car.

Make sure you have somebody that is continuously checking that your designs are rules compliant and make sure you are using the correct set of rules.


all in all, have fun and good luck, come back at me if you think I can help any more.

[jamesfhammond]

I was part of a first year team last year, having done Baja previously. I'd second what Dr. Paasch said about the differences between the two.

Biggest piece of advice I can give is read the rules till you have them memorized, and then read them some more. Our only goal last year was to build a car that could pass tech, figuring anything else would be gravy.

I don't know what kind of budget you are going to have, but I'd suggest spending any cash you get on quality components for your steering rack and column, brake system, and drive line. We also found that driver ergonomics were huge. By the end of the endurance event, our drivers were dead tired because our steering was too heavy and there wasn't enough leg room.

If you have any more questions feel free to ask, FSAE is incredibly rewarding.


-James
www.oitracing.com (http://www.oitracing.com)

[theTTshark]

Originally posted by MEllisUNT:
Awesome, I will look into all of these suggestions. Next year is my senior year and I actually got our head of senior design to approve my group to do part of the Formula car as a senior design project. He said we could do drivetrain or suspension or chassis. I'm thinking if taking in the drivetrain as it seems to be pretty complex

Honestly Matt I would say that tires are the most important and complex to understand. The way you utilize tires is through your suspension geometry. If your car can't utilize the tires it won't be able to put any power down, and even if you have the best engine in all of FSAE you won't come close to winning. Then again if you have the best suspension ever and no power, you'll be stuck in the same rut. Oh racecars....

[MEllisUNT]

I actually did get some advice to start with your wheels/tires. In order to make certain your dimensions are correct, you need to know your wheel offset.

[Rex Chan]

Matt Ellis: unfortunately for you, the generally accepted way to go about an FSAE engine package involves a lot more than what you have mentioned. I am probably biased (as the process I'm about to outline is what we do), but given the resources, this seems to be the path most FSAE'ers would take.

First, I am under the impression that while a stock ECU can correct for some changes in the intake/exhaust, the FSAE rules change a LOT (mainly big plenums with small TB's on the end of them). The Indian team at FSAE-A 2011 used a stock ECU, but modified the intake. I didn't like it, and it didn't really run right.

Anyway, onto "How to Make an FSAE engine":

First, you'll have to pick an engine (lots of advice, lots of reasons on this forum). Then, design an intake/exhaust within the rules (most basic is TB>restrictor>log plenum>runners to each cylinder (assuming 4 cylinder). Then, hook up all the sensors to your ECU of choice. If you used a non-EFI base engine, you'll have more fun in getting crank/cam sensors. You can use piggyback ECUs, but most teams go stand alone (you have full control over everything). We/a lot of teams use MoTeC, but they cost a lot, but offer a complete/easy to use data logging universe. PE seems very active on here. Then you have to build a loom to connect all your sensors to your ECU. We are lucky, cos we design, but Yazaki make our loom to reduce student manufacturing errors. It's not hard to make a reliable loom, but you need to be shown how to do good wiring. Bad wiring breeds more bad wiring.

So, now you have an engine. But it won't run. Thus, you need an engine dyno, where you control the speed/load, so the lookup tables in the ECU can be tuned/calibrated. While you can do on-track tuning for fuel, and you can wait for your car to be built to tune on a chassis dyno, it does mean waiting for a car. Engine dynos reduce dependance on other people. We're lucky cos we have our own dyno (permanent setup); Auckland only have limited time (temporary). The main things to tune on your dyno will be fuel (RPM vs TPS/MAP/etc) and spark. Fuel targets a Lambda value (you know what you want in advance); spark requires a sweep for MBT (don't know til you go past it).

Now, once you put the car together, the ECU will already have a good "base tune". You can focus on making your auxiliary systems work. Track tuning of accel enrich and other things will make your tune better/controllable/use less fuel.

Last step: go to comp, beat everyone in Accel (cos you got a powerful engine, and good LC tune), win AutoX cos your engine is drivable, and win fuel, cos you cut fuel when the drivers don't need it (even if they feel "slow").

Last bit of advice: engine team is a thankless role - you do a good job = car drives around forever (nobody notices). You do a bad job = car stuck in pits fixing stuff = everyone notices. But someone has to do it. And so many comps are lost due to engine problems.

Now for some opinions: stock engine, with basic intake/exhaust, with lots of time spent on dyno & track tuning is the best way to use resources for and FSAE engine. Reliability is a must, and since 4 cylinders have "enough" power, fuel economy is the next most important trait, as well as control. I think too many teams spend time on fiddling with the (physical) engine, and not enough tuning it. Our 2011 engine was stock, boring basic intake, but tuned on a dyno and track (by a guy new to it all, but a fast learner), and got pretty good reviews at the driver swap after comp.

[Rex Chan]

I also don't get why people dismiss simple cars as not being competitive: the advice given to new teams to keep things simple also applies to older teams too. Older teams just have more capacity to deal with mistakes/failures with their more complex designs.

Simple designs DO win, and do very well at comps.

If your uni has the facilities to do certain complex processes, then that's fine (and you SHOULD take advantage of it). But I wouldn't feel the need to make things more "advanced" as years pass.

JonB: I suppose this comes down to what we do FSAE for. We (Melbourne) start from a low base each year, so for us (like Matt) aiming to do a simple car leads to lots of stuff being learnt. Trying complex stuff just results in poor implementation, and poor learning. An experienced team may choose harder projects to challenge themselves, but won't make a significant difference in performance.

[bob.paasch]

Originally posted by Z:
Both these threads give good reasons to suggest that a high horsepower engine is not necessary in FSAE. Especially not for a first year team. Briefly, you only have to drive 20 miles at an average of ~35mph to do really well. But you must finish all of that 20 miles...

I note everyone above has advised "KISS". But then many have gone on to suggest a heavyweight, high horsepower four, with a student designed and built four-throat-intake/plenum/restrictor-diffuser and exhaust. Not very "simple" in my book. Or else the suggestion has been a highly tuned MotoX single with fragile starter, and requirement for student designed bespoke EFI. Again, not the simplest.

Besides Briggs & Stratton, which can work, why not look at the legion of agricultural ATVs/Quad-bikes out there. I don't know what supply and costs are like in USA, but many of these come with ~500cc singles, carb or EFI, and a basic reliability that allows Farmer Brown to just climb on, press the button and go. Yes, I know most have CVTs, but that is "a good thing" (that is why Farmer Brown likes them http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). Or you can just run them with the clutch and direct chain drive.

Everyone says "KISS", but does that mean, "Keep Imitating Stupid Stuff"? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Z

(PS. Concentrate on corner speed, not high horsepower.)

Z, in this case I agree with you. I present the OSU Bajamula.

I actually think this car could finish in the top 25 at Michigan. With Hoosier LC0s it was posting autocross/endurance times about 15-20% off the GFR11c car last fall at the NW Shootout. 10 HP, CVT plus transaxle. It would use about 1.5 liters of fuel in 22 km.

http://web.engr.oregonstate.edu/~paasch/bajamula2.jpg

[Bemo]

I'm absolutely agreeing with Bob here. If you manage to build a car which passes scrutineering without major issues, finishes every dynamic event and is somehow properly driving you will be top 25 at michigan and at FSG. Just have a look on the number of teams usually finishing endurance!

If you think it isn't fun to build an as simple as possible car, i've got one question - where's the fun in working for a whole year and having something which is not working?!

[Z]

Originally posted by bob.paasch:
I present the OSU Bajamula.
...
With Hoosier LC0s it was posting autocross/endurance times about 15-20% off the GFR11c car ...
10 HP, CVT plus transaxle. It would use about 1.5 liters of fuel in 22 km.
Bob,

Thanks for the real world comparison.

Now think about lowering the CG a bit (looks quite high for Baja), more streamlined bodywork for less drag, a simple, efficient aero undertray for downforce (giving greater corner speed and hence less need for accelerating/braking), and before you know it that 15-20% deficit is gone.

IMO plenty of motivation/interest/fun in that! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Z

[mech5496]

Bob,

I'm going to print the above post and show it to any new team member when they speak about "4cyl turocharged aero cars"... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[theTTshark]

Originally posted by mech5496:
Bob,

I'm going to print the above post and show it to any new team member when they speak about "4cyl turocharged aero cars"... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Remove the turbo and then you have a good idea. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[rjwoods77]

Akron was the inspiration for University @ Buffalo FSAE using the Briggs and Stratton V-Twin...

http://forums.bajasae.net/foru...f-fury_topic637.html (http://forums.bajasae.net/forum/bajamula-vtwin-of-fury_topic637.html)

I thoroughly enjoy OSU's application of in FSAE speak, "CG reduction and roll center travel mitigation technology" whereas in Mini Baja speak it would be "ghetto ass ratchet strap jerry rig".

The UB baja team took one of our old spare 18hp twins and threw it into an old chassis for some hooning...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...g&lf=plcp&playnext=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLPXhXmkMZQ&feature=autoplay&list=UUMrjHbbORZ3kIkFaQWS5Gng&lf=plcp&playnext=1)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...ndex=44&feature=plcp (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=neZIS_X0NIw&list=UUkMwU61ijRIwFfI-Y4G5LPg&index=44&feature=plcp)

[jjund]

MEllisUNT,

I have a quick piece of advice on something that people don't really think about when it comes to members. The entire founding team graduated and the end of my freshman, so I found myself as a sophomore with two other members having to rebuild the team with nothing more than a bit of knowledge and a 40% finished frame.

Anyway, my advice is that when you start getting new members, don't ignore the ones that are dedicated for the ones that are skilled. If you have someone who keeps showing up, but not having anything to do, FIND them something to do. This may sound obvious, but it's very important. Some of the most crucial members of my team now were people that just kept showing up, even though they had nothing to do. Those people ended up being 100 times more valuable than the guys who new how to weld but stopping showing up 3 weeks in.

We have gone from essentially new to semi-successful in about two years, so feel free to email me if you have any questions.

[rjwoods77]

University @ Buffalo ran a fuel injected turbo(Aerocharger) KTM 525 back in 1997. I could have sworn that they wrote an SAE paper about it.