FSAE as a class for credit

[Corey H]

I have heard that some schools offer the FSAE program as a class for tech elective credit.

I was wondering how many schools actually do this?

[Discretely elite]

At my school, Lawrence Technological University, FSAE counts towards our senior project and we also earn a total of 5 credits for one year on the team. The same goes for Baja and Aero.

[Mike Macie]

At UB, the closest thing we are allowed is to do a senior design project on our car.

For teams that give course credit for being on the team. How does your school enforce and monitor participation?

[Dave K]

Here at MTU, it is part of our enterprise program. You can take it as a class, for one credit, and then if you want to replace senior design with it, you can take additional enterprise classes for an "enterprise concentration" toward your degree.

Participation is the biggest problem, since it is possible to then just to join to get an easy credit (We have recently been trying to figure out new ways to combat this). We have thought of possibly implementing an application process, where new members cannot join unless they have approval from the president after a sort of 'interview'.

[Ben Dyer]

We (University of Washington) offer it as a credit class. It can be taken as a senior elective, senior design, or as general credit for non-majors.

We're fortunate to have had a graduate TA for that past couple years, a good faculty adviser, and in general a school that's fairly supportive of the program.

Offering it for credit is a nice way to help commit people over the course of the year.

[Michael Hart]

At Dartmouth, an FSAE project can be completed for the two-trimester senior design credit, among other courses. Most students do something with that, but we're trying to get more and more people who work on FSAE-related projects to get credit for independent studies, and so far, the faculty have been pretty receptive.

I'm actually working on an independent study this term on engine tuning, which is great - I'm getting graded on doing what I would otherwise be doing instead of schoolwork haha

[blister]

At ETH Zurich, we managed to get 15CP`s for FSAE in one year. Huge problem is that certain people think that this allows them to take our car for rebuilding it for other purposes without asking.

Anyone had similar issues where the uni took the car (or even the whole project)???

[ben]

We had the option of taking our 40 credit (120 credit year) individual project on the car. I chose not too because I didn't want my degree to be determined by a large team project with varying motivation levels across the team.

Having said that my project was on lap time simulation, which used a lot of FSAE references, without directly involving the car physically.

Ben

[screwdriver]

We've got an established system where our MEs can do their assignments by constructing a part for the car. The team leaders evaluate their work together with the professors afterwards.

Last season we also managed to have get credits worth a whole course for implementing our telemetry system. We've been evaluated by the professor from regular reports (which included project-management and planning). We also had to do a final presentation about the whole project, which was evaluated, too.

Basicly all you need to do is find a practical assignment that roughly matches what you do on the team, then talk to the professor or lecturer. If he or she is interested, you may get your credits for the stuff you do in the team.

[Steve O]

Every semester our adviser pulls some teeth and gets the class to count as a 3 cr professional elective for ME's. He generally listens to whoever is the captain about the performance of the individual. This semester I am currently still working on the teeth pulling to get it out as an elective for EE's... problem is I need a sponsoring teacher.

Steve

[Michael Palaszynski]

3 Credit ME elective.

Mainly for ME students, but we've had an EE from time to time. Last year we actually brought on two Business majors.

Biggest mistake ever. They had no idea what hard work was. No offense to any business major reading this.

[TG]

I managed to get one of these courses set up as a technical elective in the mechanical and aerospace program. There were a couple really big problems that hindered it from being successful.

First, I had pitched the course to the department and school structured with specific projects and outcomes. Teams of 4 or 5 would work on specific projects with specifications determined in the beginning of the semester. This probably would have worked. However, a last minute change to the professor completely messed everything up. He dropped the project idea and made the class completely unformatted. Everyone in the class was divided up into 5 subsystems (chassis, suspension/brakes, drivetrain, driver integration/body, and powertrain) so there were over 8 people per group and even more in powertrain (the class was really popular and the seat cap for the course had to be extended multiple times). With the unstructured format the teams really didn't have defined goals and floundered during the semester trying to organize themselves around unclear goals and objectives.

A heirarchical structure of decision making would have also helped. People wanted a group decision process where in class we would decide as a group as to what should be done with problems encountered. BAD IDEA! Not only did it take forever for everyone (this is including a whole bunch of people who didn't know what the hell they were talking about and just wanted their job to be easier) to come to a decision, the decision made usually had an unintended consequence that needed further decisions to be made at the next class. I'll giive you an example: I finished design on the chassis early with a general shape for a chassis with proper load paths, etc. I knew a general idea of what the suspension and driver integration teams were designing to so I would enter in those constraints when they told me. However, when suspension finally did, the driver integration team complained that it left to little space to install a clutch pedal they wanted to use. When the adjustment to the chassis was made to accommodate for the space, when the next class rolled around, the suspension team complained that the roll center positions, instant center movement and chamber angles they wanted couldn't be achieved. This caused a HUGE delay in the design process and could have been easily solved by someone who knew what they were doing to make a decision or two and get it over with.

Another problem was the dedication and experience of the student coming into the course. If the course is properly structured with clear objectives and deadlines, you will not have a problem with dedication. There is still a problem with the knowledge of the system they are designing for. Sure, if you lay out in excruciating detail the objective they are to complete, they might end up with a result with some semblance to the item that is desired to be made. However, getting that much detail into the specification limits design innovation and takes up a lot of time. You really need people working on the project who understand what a part is used for, know how to design it with function and manufacturing in mind, and know how to test the part to make sure it meets specification. To get this sort of student you really need to be able to screen the sort of student signing up for the course. A way to do this as suggested by the vice chair of the department is to set up a prerequisite of having so much involvement previously with the FSAE and have professor approval for the course mandatory. That should weed out the students and bring in those that truly are dedicated to the project.

There were a couple other smaller, yet important issues, too. As Steve O mentioned, finding a prof for the course is no easy feat unless you have an adviser willing to take it on. To find a prof, I sugesst you first go knocking on the doors of full professors and possibly regents professors... it's easier to get a prof with tenure to agree to work on this project instead of working on a project with a grant (unless you can some way find a grant for the formula program). Another option is to look for professors who have research that is directly related to a formula car in one way or another. They might be able to fit you into their schedule. Other than that, it's hard work but you could try to get the department chair to pretty much force one of the faculty members to do the course, but that's less than ideal as that is what happened to the course I set up and it didn't turn out so well when he changed up everything.

I'm supportive of these types of courses to be interdisciplinary as well, but you then need to have multiple profs involved with the course. I think the best management style is to have someone who really knows what they are doing lead the entire project. Then have highly involved students below that person and lead the different project teams. There would be a matrix-style organization with heavy weight project leaders and the professors would come across through all of the projects helping with their respective areas but they really would have much power as to changing the design, that would have to be made by project leaders.

So here's what you will need to do to get a class running successfully:
- First set up a structure by which the class is ran (This is BIG and requires a lot of thought and detail, setting up a systems engineering management plan (SEMP) wouldn't be a bad idea for this). This will be the syllabus for the course
- Find somebody to teach the course, preferably who is interested in it
- Get the course listed by the department (or departments)
- In the beginning of the semester, set up a good detailed specification baseline. The specification can drift some, but it has to be to the approval of everyone related to the change. But you really need at least a baseline to work off of
- Select the leaders for the entire project and the different teams
- Carry out the project in a "stage-gate" manner, treating class periods as the "gates" and all the time between class as the "stages". Yes, this will lead to a lot of gates, which is generally shunned in industry as getting to be inefficient as spending too much time trying to make decisions and not designing (think of the IBM ads "stop thinking, start doing"). However, with people that aren't exactly professionals, more stage gates like this will keep people on track towards meeting deadlines and objectives. Plus, you have the classtime set up anyways, so you might as well use it in a productive manner.

That's about all I can think of right now.

Corey, PM me if you want more detailed info on how I got the class going at ASU. The requirements for us are the same as they were set up by ABOR.

[Kyle Roggenkamp]

We can use it as senior design at our school, but we meet adversity every way we turn. We have had to battle our department and the university as a whole, for pretty much everything, from the privelage of using a drill, to using the lab after hours, you name it, someone has had a problem with it, even if it doesn't affect them directly. Looks like we've got a long way to go to get to some school's levels!

[kapps]

From what I've been able to gather, SAE was a class at some time in our school's past. We've competed is Baja for decades and used to be the team to beat year after year. Formula was started back in '99 as a senior design project that turned into a separate club after those guys finished.

We are currently working with the dean of the College of Engineering to re-instate an SAE class. The idea is to make it a 1 credit summer class that is pre senior design. The dean is our advisor anyway and we will give him updates on our progress and he will award grades. I'm not quite sure of the intricacies of the proposal but it's currently in the works.

[Dave K]

TG, it sounds like what you are talking about is almost just like what we are trying to do. In very recent years, our team has been 'lead' by a group of about five or six very experienced veterans that really knew their stuff. They would want to get stuff done as soon as possible, so passing knowledge on to newer members seemed like a low priority. Coupled with mixed opinions, low motivation, and lacking school support, the team began to drop. We are trying to now bring our team out of that drop this year by implementing a plan along the lines of what you are describing, and it seems to be working quite well so far.

[GSXR05K]

No matter how much project management you incorporate into FSAE, it is the development of the individuals and a team that leads to satisfaction on all accounts.

From my experiences and research, I believe that FSAE as a class is usually detrimental for all involved.

The pure... motives for participating in FSAE are generated by members involved on a volunteer basis. As soon as some sort of compensation, class credit or otherwise, is introduced, motives become tainted.

This is because combining volunteers with those compensated for their work almost always results in disputed vision for the organization. Lack of vision is a great recipe for disaster.

FSAE functions best as a professional race team. Professional teams hire engineers to perform work for them. Likewise, the FSAE team should recruit (hire) people (students) to work for the team; as opposed to working for the school (credit). These hired members are then accoutable to the team, rather than a professor. This process is much more natural in a volunteer organization. This is the best approach to recruiting seniors who are looking for a senior design/capstone project (who are the most likely students to request or receive credit for FSAE work).

Once a paradigm like this is practiced, all the project managment will fall into place. But all the project managment will be a breeze compared to the effort required to develop a strong team.

The beginning of this process is your own desire to understand what a great team is, and then practicing implementation.

Have fun,
Aaron

[SuperSport2]

At Washington State University, Formula SAE is 100% extra curricular (no class credit). We have a faculty advisor who signs our purchase requests and fights to keep our FSAE program surviving.

The school is leaning towards giving students 3 credits toward one of their technical elective classes for being heavily involved in a ME club for 4 or 6 semesters (2-3 years, i can't remember). This is an attempt to get people committed to a ME club for an extended period of time.

Brett Lucas
WSU Formula SAE
Go Cougs

[Biggy72]

From what I've seen I really like the University of Washington's setup. I honestly don't see it working too many other ways and they have a proven track record doing things the way they do.

[Steve Yao]

Thanks Derek.

As Ben mentioned above, we offer 3 different course names for SAE credit. Mostly they are the equivalent of independent study and a senior design project. Our faculty advisor is listed as the instructor, but everything is run by a TA and the team leads. If need be the advisor will provide advice etc.

Everyone submits an application to be on the team. From the application and an informal interview, we'll decide if they would "fit". Mostly this centers around getting people who are not complete douchebags, can handle the time commitment, and have a real interest in learning and contributing. IMHO, a lot of that gets handled by simply asking for the application (form, resume, statement letter, and transcript). People who are not truly interested or don't have the time don't fill it out or don't pester us to schedule the interview.

In previous years, we would accept volunteers or for credit. We've had people flake, and now the policy is everyone takes it for credit (some exceptions: freshmen). It provides some measure of accountability. The application process must be completed before signing up for credit.

It is project oriented. People get assigned to technical and administrative groups and assigned to specific projects within those. This year has seen a bigger push on defining clearer objectives/timelines. Grades are based upon meeting these objectives on time as assessed by the team leads. Its worked out well.

As TG mentioned, your best bet is to treat it as an independent study project. Each project will need submission of a proposal defining the quarter's objectives and timeline. A key area in this proposal should be some kind of research/learning about the specific system. After all, it needs to be educational for the admins to buy-in.

[Eric K]

At RPI we have the option to do an independent study relating to the FSAE car. Any member who wishes to do one needs to submit a purposal to either our advisor or another professor for approval.

The deliverable is usually a 30+ page paper.

We only get 1-3 credits at the 4000 level.

[Joy Pathak]

Just an additional question for Wisconsin Team regarding credit.

Does it count as a credit if you do FSAE at Wisconsin-Madison?

I am coming in as a PhD student this Fall semester for Materials Science at Wisconsin-Madison. I am interested in possibly doing some FSAE work during my first semester since I will mostly be taking classes rather than intensive PhD research.

I did Body previously for FSAE Windsor and also Supermileage Winsdor. I am a big fan of wings and have developed numerical models to simulate Wings in Fluent. I can also provide extensive CFD assistance to Body team and engine team. I have two published conference proceedings which are forthcoming in the matter.

Let me know whom to contact and so on? Also if it counts as a credit please let me know so I can let me advisor know about it. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Email me if you want. jpathak2@wisc.edu

Joy

[Joy Pathak]

Nvm. Just saw on the course website that is counts as 1 elective course credit and 3 design credits.

Solid.