OEM crank & cam sensors & trigger wheel patterns

[murpia]

Hi,

I'd like to put together a database of OEM crank & cam sensor types and trigger wheel patterns. I think this will be useful for any teams looking to spec. ECUs for a particular engine.

If you are willing to contribute please reply with any / all of the following info:

Engine manufacturer, engine model, model year.
Crank sensor type (VRS or Hall, 2-wire or 3-wire, whatever you know)
Crank trigger wheel tooth pattern (missing tooth, extra tooth, special pattern, timing of pattern, etc.)
Cam sensor type, if fitted (VRS or Hall, 2-wire or 3-wire, whatever you know)
Cam sensor trigger (camshaft detail, special trigger wheel, timing of trigger, etc)

Don't worry if you don't know it all. Periodically I'll collate and format the info, and highlight any inconsistencies.

Thanks in advance, Ian

[Jon Burford]

Yamaha Genesis 80fi 2007-2009 (at least)
Crank sensor type: VRS (2 wire)
Crank trigger type: 12 tooth, no missing teeth
Cam sensor type: Hall (3 wire)
Cam trigger type: standard cam shaft target

many thanks

[jlangholzj]

06-07 Yamaha R6r
Crank sensor - VRS (2w)
Crank Trigger - 24-2
Cam sensor - Hall (3w)
Cam trigger - once per rev
CRIP - 148*

[Owen Thomas]

Honda CBR 600 F4i, 2003
Crank Sensor - Magnetic (2 wire)
Crank Trigger - 12 tooth, no missing
Cam Sensor - Magnetic (2 wire)
Cam Trigger - Stock is 3 teeth (1BDC, 1TDC, 1 15*BTDC). We have all but 1 tooth at TDC chopped to run our ViPEC ECU.

[Tilman]

Heyho,

2004 Yamaha R6 RJ09, may be the same as the 2003 RJ05:

Crank sensor: Variable reluctance 2-wire, 4 - 0 teeth on crank trigger wheel. Usually needs to be replaced by a wheel with at least 12 teeth. Outer wheel diameter around 2.5inch / 62mm (don't know exactely), inner diameter on our modified wheels is 16H7. Thickness is unknown to me at the moment. Wheel needs a "nose" to mate with a notch on the crankshaft.

Cam sensor: Hall effect 5 Volt 3-wire, one tooth. Does not need to be modified for aftermarket ECUs. Beware: The camshafts from the Yamaha Fazer (same engine, different camshafts) do not have this cam wheel and use a wasted spark setup, so you cannot easily switch camshafts without loosing sequential injection & ignition. Moreover the non-functional surface parts of the fazer camshafts have not been ground/lathed after casting!

If you need more info just ask.

[Racer-X]

Honda F4i
Crank Sensor - Magnetic 2 wire
Crank Trigger - 12 tooth stock, we have a 6 tooth in one of our engines
Cam Sensor - Magnetic 2 wire
Cam Trigger - 3 teeth

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

Hi Guys,

This is a topic that is near and dear to me http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We have slowly been adding stock crank and cam patterns for OEM engines as we work with new teams and customers. They get added directy to the PE3 engine software/firmare so you don't have to modify the stock wheels. If you come accross a new configuration please contact us and we can get it into the PE3.

Murpia - When you get a sheet put together, send it to me and I will add the ones that I know. We support some crazy configurations now.

[Tilman]

Originally posted by B Lewis @ PE Engine Management:
We have slowly been adding stock crank and cam patterns for OEM engines as we work with new teams and customers. They get added directy to the PE3 engine software/firmare so you don't have to modify the stock wheels. If you come accross a new configuration please contact us and we can get it into the PE3.

You need all the timing information to do that, don't you?
I remember that our engine guys had some trouble getting a timing light working on ignition coils which incorporate a coil driver and a spark plug connector into one part. The solution was a microcontroller with an LED attached but this device does not work anymore ...

Do you know where to buy a proper timing light which works with an ignition setup where spark plug connector and ignition coil are one single part? (Only 12V / 5V signals, no high voltage ignition wire available)

[murpia]

Hi all,

Many thanks for all the responses.

I am looking into a Google Docs form & linked spreadsheet to allow easy update & access to the info.

I need to play around with the format a little first, to be sure to capture all the info.

Thanks again, Ian

[Owen Thomas]

Tilman,

If I am not mistaken, you can hook up a normal spark plug connector (no igniter) to your signal and power wires and get a read off of that with a standard timing light. We use a separate igniter currently, and I have timed our engine with and without it wired up. The spark may be weaker but the signal is still there, and it shouldn't be hard to get a regular coil on the cheap. I do have to say that I have never experienced the problem you are having, however.

As an alternative, it is also possible to jam some wire between the coil and the plug, and put the timing light pickup around that wire. Remember that the plug does not have to be in the engine to verify timing.

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

Tilman,

Many timing lights will trigger from the low tension (drive signals) going to the coil. If that doesn't work there is a truly cheap and elegant solution. Keep the plug in the head, buy yourself a normal spark plug wire and boot, install the plug wire in between the ignition coil and the plug and.... viola, you now have a high tension wire to clamp the timing light on to.

[Tilman]

Heyho,

the simplest solution is often the best ...

Thanks for the advice!

[Mbirt]

Honda CRF450X/TRX450ER carbureted
Crank sensor type VR 2-wire
Crank trigger wheel tooth pattern 1 long, 1 short

Yamaha WR450f/YFZ450 carbureted
Crank sensor type VR 2-wire
Crank trigger wheel tooth pattern 1 long

Yamaha 2012+ WR450f/ 09+ YFZ450R/X EFI
Crank sensor type VR 2-wire
Crank trigger wheel tooth pattern 12-1, TDC is 180 deg from first tooth per PE YFZ450R/X document

Rotax 600 ACE
Crank sensor type VR 2-wire
Crank trigger wheel tooth pattern 36-2, no timing mark http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Rotax DS-450
Crank sensor type VR
Crank trigger wheel tooth pattern 36-2

Suzuki LT-R450
Crank sensor type VR
Crank trigger wheel tooth pattern 18+1 (18 teeth, one is longer than the others)

[Jon Burford]

Mbirt, have you run a 600 ace?
I was looking at one, we couldn't afford it though.

[Mbirt]

I sure do, Mr. Burford, but in a much simpler application: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-qYZcQOKEc

It's unstoppable in the Clean Snowmobile Challenge because you're starting with the cleanest, quietest, most fuel efficient engine/sled and improving from there (not an easy task BTW).

In FSAE its main advantages would be the ability to keep the stock throttled intake manifold with its giant 4.6 l plenum and therefore possibly run the stock ECU if the stock TB is used ahead of the restrictor. We made 57 hp on the competition dyno with close-coupled catalysts, a quiet exhaust system, the stock intake, and minimum power enrichment. I believe it could make 70 hp tops with intake and exhaust work, a standalone, and E85. And custom clutching of the eDrive primary would be required to spin it to the speed where it could make that power. It would definitely be competitive with the best in FSAE for fuel economy.

It won't be as boost-friendly as the Genesis 80fi despite similar CR--it's designed for high BMEP at much lower speed. The issues I have with it in an FSAE application stem from the advantages of thumpers. It weighs 10 kg more than the WR450, but only has the same power potential and doesn't include a transmission. Parts are expensive and it's much more difficult to rebuild when something goes wrong.

With that said, I think it's a great option if a team is dead-set on a CVT and wants to win fuel efficiency also.

[MCoach]

Originally posted by Mbirt:
It's unstoppable in the Clean Snowmobile Challenge because you're starting with the cleanest, quietest, most fuel efficient engine/sled and improving from there (not an easy task BTW).

Looking at CSC results, I can what you mean. It looks like you guys from Kettering ran one and nearly wiped the floor, save for Clarkson who also took the top spot. Word has come down that Wisconsin might be running one this year also? Wish it was that easy to make an engine choice decision in FSAE.


Originally posted by Mbirt:
I believe it could make 70 hp tops with intake and exhaust work, a standalone, and E85. And custom clutching of the eDrive primary would be required to spin it to the speed where it could make that power. It would definitely be competitive with the best in FSAE for fuel economy.

70hp is more than enough to work with. If a team is willing to sacrifice all out power for some control strategy, it may be worth it to drop an accel score for an almost shoe in on fuel efficiency. If the drop in is as easy as it sounds, may leave time to do a lot of that without the real need on drivability and power tuning. Even a 60 hp twin would still be well enough to work with, making more than most singles, and nowhere near as strung out. Reliability may be through the roof compared to a dirt bike motor...

Hm.... light chassis, heavy motor, low power, reliable. Not a popular concept. Too many these days going for .1% when they can still pull another 10% in other areas http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif May have to consider it. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif


Originally posted by Mbirt:
It weighs 10 kg more than the WR450, but only has the same power potential and doesn't include a transmission. Parts are expensive and it's much more difficult to rebuild when something goes wrong.

Parts from Rotax tend to be expensive and hard to get because they are never stocked. They have this idea that the motors are indestructable and nothing could possibly go wrong. It's just a culture thing.


Originally posted by Mbirt:
With that said, I think it's a great option if a team is dead-set on a CVT and wants to win fuel efficiency also.

Agreed.



5HP Briggs and Stratton:

1 tooth http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Wasted spark

[Mbirt]

10 kg can easily be overcome with a diminutive jockey: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...zEfmY&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FJ5h8zEfmY&feature=relmfu)

[MCoach]

Might do well in a formula car, but still looks slow on a sled...

Clicking though the Youtube sidebar I found this gem:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...4ydKY&feature=relmfu (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlZpyv4ydKY&feature=relmfu)


Wow. That's quick. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif