Keizer Wheel Safety Factor

[Chumble]

I have designed, manufactured and tested carbon fiber wheels (unfortunately not in time for competition, as you can see), and I was comparing their properties to Keizer 13" wheels. I have heard from many an unnamed source that Keizer's 13" wheels are overdesigned for use on an FSAE car. I was wondering if anyone else has heard the same, and if so, by how much are they overdesigned? This may very well determine whether or not I have managed to make working carbon fiber wheels for our team.

[Chumble]

I have designed, manufactured and tested carbon fiber wheels (unfortunately not in time for competition, as you can see), and I was comparing their properties to Keizer 13" wheels. I have heard from many an unnamed source that Keizer's 13" wheels are overdesigned for use on an FSAE car. I was wondering if anyone else has heard the same, and if so, by how much are they overdesigned? This may very well determine whether or not I have managed to make working carbon fiber wheels for our team.

[Adambomb]

Uhmm...if you have to ask...

Oh, nevermind. Are you an engineer?

[Chumble]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">by how much are they overdesigned? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Allow me to reword: I was comparing the lateral stiffness of the two wheels. I know how much they will deflect, but I want to know what an acceptable amount of deflection is for such a wheel.

[exFSAE]

You tell us. For a max cornering condition, how much camber loss through compliance is acceptable?

As for Keizers being overdesigned.. from a stress standpoint maybe. From a compliance standpoint though.. not so sure.

[Adambomb]

Not only that, but your cornering weight will have a humongous impact. What works on the front of a rear-heavy 375 lb car may not work on a 550 lb car.

In other words, there is no "right" answer.

[Drew Price]

To add to the racket of things for you top think about, you also didn't say which model / width Keizer wheel you were talking about.

We had a set of old Keizer circle track wheels with press formed aluminum plate centers - and they were floppppyyyyy.

They make some nice machined forgings for the centers too, but at nearly the cost of some BBS wheels - we just bought some BBS wheels.

Best,
Drew

[Adambomb]

To further-further obfuscate, not only are there both Al and Mg machined centers, but every year they are a little different. The Mg ones we got this year look heavier, but stiffer.

[Kwheels]

We have changed allot over the years in design. Sponsored teams from all over have given valuable input to help improve all facets of the wheels. something that worked 10 years ago had to be changed to keep up to FSAE's growth in speed and needs. The Old Aluminum centers are now referred to as the A1. in past years we used as thin as 1/8" material in the centers. (didnt work well) now 1/4" is standard.(works well) The Kosmo mags have also evolved in recent years. Material added and we also use different properties in our magnesium. Info and this and the 2 new options of centers can be found in the download section of the website.

www.keizerwheels.ccom (http://www.keizerwheels.ccom)

Wade Huisman
Keizer Aluminum Wheels Inc.
Phone 712-737-3053
cell 712-441-5390
fax 712-737-3053
kaw@mtcnet.net
www.keizerwheels.com (http://www.keizerwheels.com)
"the lightest wheels in racing"

[exFSAE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kwheels:
in past years we used as thin as 1/8" material in the centers. (didnt work well) now 1/4" is standard.(works well) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Got anything more substantial... e.g. data... rather than just "Wasn't good.. now its good" ?

[Kwheels]

At the moment that's about it. That and we were lucky enough to be a part of another FSAE championship with Oregon State Univ along with 4 of the top 5 teams utilizing our stuff. Hats off to all of them for taking us with them. We appreciate your efforts.

Our stuff isn't perfect. We always have room to grow. We try hard for the teams. The last time we did finite element analysis we broke stuff in spots we could not explain. Our experience like yours is invaluable. What works on paper or your computer does not always work on the race track. Allot of teams found that out last weekend. Weekly we deal with 800hp racecars pushing the limits on everything we produce. So we have a pretty good grasp on things.

Good luck to all the teams this summer in your competition ventures. We look forward to many updates from teams over the summer.


Please feel free to contact me with any questions direct.

Wade Huisman
Keizer Aluminum Wheels Inc.
Phone 712-737-3053
cell 712-441-5390
fax 712-737-3053
kaw@mtcnet.net
www.keizerwheels.com (http://www.keizerwheels.com)
"the lightest wheels in racing"

[sbrenaman]

As far as I can tell, the 4-lugs come in Kosmo mag centers (std 4 spokes we see on may teams, including ours), A1 plate aluminum (looks like an old 60's style wheel), and the 4L spoked version.

What, if any, benefit is there to using the 4L style wheel centers?

[Kwheels]

We currently produce 4 style 13" wheels and 1 style 10" wheel. We are working on a few more options for 10" wheels. All centers can be ordered in blanks for teams to do final machine work. The website will be updated to reflect the 2 new centers offered in a few weeks.

13" wheels.
Cosmo Mag
A1 Alum
4L forged
CL-1 centerlock forged http://www.wwufsae.com/Shared_...brary/Wheels/Keizer/ (http://www.wwufsae.com/Shared_FSAE_CAD_Library/Wheels/Keizer/)


Wade Huisman
Keizer Aluminum Wheels Inc.
Phone 712-737-3053
cell 712-441-5390
fax 712-737-3055
kaw@mtcnet.net
www.keizerwheels.com (http://www.keizerwheels.com)
"the lightest wheels in racing"

[Kwheels]

4L benefit- it is slightly less expensive then the mag wheel but still has some flexibility in design. downside is it heavier.

Wade Huisman
Keizer Aluminum Wheels Inc.
Phone 712-737-3053
cell 712-441-5390
fax 712-737-3055
kaw@mtcnet.net
www.keizerwheels.com (http://www.keizerwheels.com)
"the lightest wheels in racing"

[sbrenaman]

Any differences in stiffness between the 4L and Kosmo?

[Kwheels]

On the cornering fatigue machine the 4L forged center shows less deflection then the Kosmo Magnesium if standard machine work is applied to each. That being said we really had to put the weight to the wheels befor we could see a noticeable difference in the two.

[sbrenaman]

Any data? I'm trying to decide if we need new wheel centers. We need a 2nd set of wheels for rains.