Yamaha Phazer Power Curve

[Scott Thomson]

Hi everyone, first post here!

I am currently doing Formula Student as my final-year Honours project at university and currently researching which engine to use. I found and really like the Yamaha Phazer RTX 500cc twin but I can't find any power/torque curves for it.

Does anyone have any that they'd be willing to share?

Thanks,

Scott

[Scott Thomson]

Hi everyone, first post here!

I am currently doing Formula Student as my final-year Honours project at university and currently researching which engine to use. I found and really like the Yamaha Phazer RTX 500cc twin but I can't find any power/torque curves for it.

Does anyone have any that they'd be willing to share?

Thanks,

Scott

[L B0MB]

Google search found this for the GENESIS 80FI...

http://www.yamaha-motor.com/sport/sno/tech_eng.aspx

So a restricted version would look similar but with diminishing power up top I'm guessing...

[Scott Thomson]

Thanks for that. Unfortunately I already have that image. I am primarily interested in the Torque curve of the engine.

Another question: The CVT in the Phazer, will it be able to deliver all the torque from the engine to the ground via two racing slick tyres? In a snowmobile the limiting factor will almost always be traction, not engine power so torque load on the CVT will be lower.

Anyone had any experience of this?

[Kirk Feldkamp]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scott Thomson:
Thanks for that. Unfortunately I already have that image. I am primarily interested in the Torque curve of the engine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

TQ(ftlbs) = HP*5252/RPM. Calculate some points, and plot it.

-Kirk

[SamB]

Thanks to their different cams the fazer is like a touring version of the standard engines. We have an R6 and an R6 fazer. The fazer itself gives overall less power but the power comes furthlower downer up the rev range. It has its benefits and cons, so it's all about what you want. Personally, I'd stick to the standard engines but take a look at a website like this

http://www.yamaha-motor.co.uk/products/motorcycles/moto...odel=tcm%3A46-254671 (http://www.yamaha-motor.co.uk/products/motorcycles/motorcycle_comparison_details.jsp?model=tcm%3A46-254695&model=tcm%3A46-254671)

to get all the engine info and then you can judge for yourself!

[Kirk Feldkamp]

The Phazer is different than the Fazer. Same company, completely different application.

[SamB]

Ah...thought it was just a typo

[Scott Thomson]

Thank you for the replies.

We have decided to use the Aprilia RXV-550 engine instead of the Phazer as we have more information on it (even contacting Yamaha was fruitless in regards to data on the engine, even weight).

[Wesley]

I've seen lots of teams switching to the Aprilia (ours included) so it'll be fun to see how all these first-gen engine packages deliver in competition.

[Kirk Feldkamp]

So it seems the FSAE community has reached the next generation of supposed engine performance panacea. Back in the day it was the new high performance NA 600's, then turbo 600's, then it was singles, and now everyone is on to big twins. And through it all, there's no clear cut engine advantage based on competition results. There is a valuable lesson lurking in there for all those that choose to learn from the past rather than trying to reinvent the wheel (or engine package, in this case).

-Kirk

[Wesley]

Yep, it's good to redesign every so often to prevent engineering stagnation.

Any team can rehash an old engine design and make competitive power. Sure, every avenue for development isn't exhausted.

It's something new, and allows the engineers to actually be the ones that have to procure this new experience. I think it's terrific practice for this competition.

[Kirk Feldkamp]

Well, that's exactly the opposite of what I meant. But hey, everyone sees things a different way. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My point was that there's really no 'best' engine package or layout for FSAE. Every few years a new distraction comes along and the FSAE masses gravitate to it as a panacea for their engine woes. In my humble opinion, the "best" engine layout one is the one that starts every time, makes useable power on FSAE competition courses, and doesn't break anything or melt down. In the last 8 years, I haven't seen very many teams *actually* reach a stagnation point in their engine package. Like you mentioned before, I don't know if the Aprilia is the right package to start with for teams that haven't ever had solid results with a 'normal' engine. It has been observed that using the Aprilia is like dating an Italian supermodel... it's sexy, but it's going to cost you a lot to maintain your relationship (time, money, your soul, etc).

-Kirk

[L B0MB]

i just came across this... turbo kit for phazer 500

http://www.princegeorgeyamaha....le_yamaha_phazer.htm (http://www.princegeorgeyamaha.com/turbokit_snowmobile_yamaha_phazer.htm)

[Malkovich]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Scott Thomson:

Another question: The CVT in the Phazer, will it be able to deliver all the torque from the engine to the ground via two racing slick tyres? In a snowmobile the limiting factor will almost always be traction, not engine power so torque load on the CVT will be lower.

Anyone had any experience of this? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Our team is using a CVT for 3 years now in competition and we had no problem with it. Some snowmobile CVT deals with 180 HP or more. I know that a snowmobile is not the best example of efficiency but im sure that it can, at least, but the 80 HP of a standard FSAE engine on the ground. Some ATV have CVT too...

[overdrive535]

Another thing to keep in mind is with some sleds we're running studs on ice and the belts hold up

[dazz]

Australia doesn't have a lot of snow, so not so many snowmobiles around. But have you guys seen the youtube snowmobile drag racing on dirt? Some of those things are absolute rocket ships (think death wish stuff). The drive trains could be heavily modified, but there is some huge power & very impressive launch speeds in those videos.

[overdrive535]

They are called grass drags.
It's how snowmobile junkies get through the summer.

The mod sleds are running aftermarket clutches, but they are making way more power than an FSAE car can.

[JoshuaMark]

Those sled drags are amazing. BTW, if any of you are looking into using the genesis 80fi, I've had to do some pretty ridiculous mods to get the timing in the MoTeC correct.

[Kyle Roggenkamp]

What do you mean by pretty ridiculous mods?

[JoshuaMark]

well, ridiculous relative to any of the honda's we've tuned, and by no means was it hard to do. i ended up having to modify the cam sensor trigger wheel in order to get the syn rel pos % that i need.

[Kyle Roggenkamp]

We didn't have to make any mods to the trigger wheel to get it to work on Microsquirt. We had to modify the signal coming from the vr, that's about it- not sure if the signal will stay clean at high rpm yet- we'll have to see...

[JoshuaMark]

awesome. it's been kind of a pain with motec, but i'm on the right track now. as far as the signal staying clean at high rpm, i'm in the same spot. i need to get the sync rel pos % right first, then i can see if it wants to flip flop at high rpm, in which case i'll have to tweak the parameter some more.

[JoshuaMark]

I managed to modify the cam trigger so that my sync rel pos % is right around 50%, which is very good. I am noticing that during cranking rpm to idle the sync rel pos % value seems to dive almost to 0 then jump way back up.

[JoshuaMark]

So, Kyle, how in what way did you modify the signal coming from the VR? I'm assuming it is the factory VR.

[stu.pattison]

We had similar problems last year running a megasquirt on a GSXR600 lump - it runs 2 VR sensors, one on the crank and one on the cam. The standard ECU uses a synocronisation of the two signals, which the megasquirt really didn't like. Same issue during cranking as well

[FSS_Racing]

Hello, I'm from Université de Sherbrooke in Québec, Canada and I have a big problem with getting RPM from my Yamaha Phazer 2007 with the microsquirt. I think you guys had do something for the signal and PLEASE I need some help with this. The Phazer use a Cam hall sensor and VR crank wheel sensor. I took the signal with an oscilloscope and everything looks perfect but with the tooth analyzer from Microsquirt.. the signal is not constant. Does someone of you can contact me about it. I need an answer by Friday because I'm going to use the AEM instead after. We are going to the competition in Michigan.

Thank you

[Mikey Antonakakis]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FSS_Racing:
Hello, I'm from Université de Sherbrooke in Québec, Canada and I have a big problem with getting RPM from my Yamaha Phazer 2007 with the microsquirt. I think you guys had do something for the signal and PLEASE I need some help with this. The Phazer use a Cam hall sensor and VR crank wheel sensor. I took the signal with an oscilloscope and everything looks perfect but with the tooth analyzer from Microsquirt.. the signal is not constant. Does someone of you can contact me about it. I need an answer by Friday because I'm going to use the AEM instead after. We are going to the competition in Michigan.

Thank you </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hey, we had a similar problem. All I can tell you is do a lot of reading on how to set up your trigger wheel. I will try to remember to take a look at things tomorrow to see if I can give you any more specific info. It was a big pain for me to figure out, but I did, and now it works perfectly.

Okay it's coming back to me now... I'm going to tell you how I set it up, it might be different for your engine (we use an F4i). First, make sure your crank trigger wheel is oriented properly. One way to do it is to have your first tooth after the missing tooth hit the sensor at cylinder 1 TDC. We set our tooth offset to 1 and the ignition offset to -30 degrees (12-1 wheel). That took quite a while to figure out, as simple as it sounds. Read the Microsquirt documentation, everything you can find about setting up your trigger wheel.

Next, we had an issue with the VR sensor being wired backwards. Once we rewired it we had already pretty much figured everything else out, and it worked.

Finally, check your signal filters or thresholds or whatever it is Microsquirt calls it. I believe all of ours are set to 85%, and we have no issues. We don't use the cam sensor, because we run batch injection and wasted spark, so we chose "single crank sensor" or however it's worded as our rpm input.

If you do get all of that working, make sure you check your timing! Ours was off by about 10 degrees, even though we had all of the correct settings.

Don't hesitate to ask if you have any more specific questions. Also, and more info about what your current settings are and what you've messed with can help me help you.

[FSS_Racing]

Hello, there is a problem with the setup you suggested for me. I can't remove a teeth from the crank wheel. The signal is perfect with the oscilloscope but is really poor with the tooth analyser. I think the tooth analyser reads the same thing as the Microsquirt do so I understand that no synch can be done with that signal it is really not constant. You can go see the post that I did on Microsquirt forum :
http://www.microsquirt.com/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=23579

I think the problem is really the reading from the VR because the reading from the hall sensor on th camshaft is really good.

Thank you