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Sam Zimmerman
06-23-2004, 05:59 PM
I have put together a crude webpage so I can speak with all of the new members about quality when they come on in the fall. Use it if you want or post your "story" if you want. I am sure there are other teams out there that failed to instill the importance of quality in every aspect of their cooling and electrical systems (my two favorite systems to be anal about.) If we can show our newbies several examples where little things cause teams to fail we will all be better off.

http://seniordesign.engr.uidaho.edu/2003_2004/fsae/connector.htm

Along those same lines, how do other teams control quality, short of watching over every single thing done on the car?

Sam Zimmerman
06-23-2004, 05:59 PM
I have put together a crude webpage so I can speak with all of the new members about quality when they come on in the fall. Use it if you want or post your "story" if you want. I am sure there are other teams out there that failed to instill the importance of quality in every aspect of their cooling and electrical systems (my two favorite systems to be anal about.) If we can show our newbies several examples where little things cause teams to fail we will all be better off.

http://seniordesign.engr.uidaho.edu/2003_2004/fsae/connector.htm

Along those same lines, how do other teams control quality, short of watching over every single thing done on the car?

Colin
06-23-2004, 06:26 PM
If you want a reliable electrical system you have to be anal about it, every year i see the same teams show up with bad wiring, it's un-reliable, it cost's them testing time and there's nothing like a stray wire to make your entire car bad. I'd be interested to know how many teams actually draw up a circuit diagram before they start? On the quality issue I think if you have I higher level of quality your after than other people on your team the only thing you can do is keep an eye on the entire project, I've usually found that there is a few people on the team that expect decent work and usually three or four people is enough to police the whole team

-
06-23-2004, 08:32 PM
YES YES YES, you need to be super anal about wiring, along with most other parts of the car. From the simple lay out of the wires to avoid rats nests, to making sure the switches you have are quality enough so that they won't fail on a bump course.

We got lucky in that we have a super picky kid who knows his ins and outs of electrical wiring on cars and he made a pretty decent system for us.

bbcb750
02-06-2005, 09:18 AM
mark-

too bad that kid is WAY behind schedule. (and burns up computers...)

Erich Ohlde
02-06-2005, 11:29 AM
What programs do you use to diagram electrical circuits in your cars? I've been using SmartDraw and that seems to work okay.

-
02-06-2005, 11:32 AM
Yeah, but aren't the rest of you guys behind schedule too? The guy doing the wiring has the excuse that he is just too darn short and that hinders him being able to reach the phone and call for switches and such.

alfordda
02-06-2005, 01:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -:
Yeah, but aren't the rest of you guys behind schedule too? The guy doing the wiring has the excuse that he is just too darn short and that hinders him being able to reach the phone and call for switches and such. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wonder if this is true for all the wiring guys. We may have to put phone books in for our wiring guy so he can drive the car, right B.J. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

D J Yates
02-06-2005, 02:14 PM
Does wiring always take for ever? Last year the whole team spent weeks waiting for the wiring to be finished before we could make any progress on the rest of the car. No one else knew the first thing about wiring and couldn't help. Despite the delay meaning that the rest of the car almost didn't get finished in time, it also meant the same guy didn't have time to finish mapping the engine. I didn't help that no one else knew how to finish his work. To be fair to the guy, he had some serious personal stuff going on at home, but we were lucky to run at the competition. It's all expereince.

Does anyone have a back up? I mean do you have another guy who knows about a particular part of the car in case something happens to guy who designed/made it?

Michael Jones
02-06-2005, 04:34 PM
Wow...for want of solder, endurance was lost. A nice way of outlining it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Along those same lines, how do other teams control quality, short of watching over every single thing done on the car? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cornell's generally done it more or less informally. While valuable and all, all the TQM or Six Sigma rhetoric in the world cannot instill quality as a cultural value, and while many of the methods used in these approaches can reduce failure considerably, the overhead is usually insane and well beyond the ability or interest of a FSAE Team.

But Cornell's team is certainly quality-driven, by cultural expectation and peer pressure for the most part. Experienced folk know the high standards we've met in the past and try to instill that ethic to newer people. As a result, when one looks at the car getting finalized in April, most people feel compelled to bring your part or system up to the caliber of others.

Of course, quality can also be (and usually is) a vicious cycle. If you see somewhat sketchy systems on the car, you'll be more likely to slack off on your own, since hey, they got away with it, right?

It's similar to dealing with litter. The moment people see litter accumulate without being picked up, the more likely they'll litter themselves.

Conversely, it's more difficult to litter in a very clean environment. And if you do it anyway, others around you are more likely to clean up after you (and tell you off...)

It's a subtle but very real problem, and the solution to litter and car sketchiness is the same - identify and eradicate sketchiness early to avoid a low standard being set.

One simple way Cornell's done this in the past is establishing a "sketchy list". All team members vote on what they believe are the five most sketchy parts/systems. Inevitably, you get about 40-50 items, with three or four universally regarded as huge problems.

The important and obvious problems are usually tackled quickly. If it means shuffling people around and even taking people off a project, well, so be it.

The act of doing this seems to spur others into cleaning up their bits, however minor - even refining and tightening up parts that aren't on the list. In a really solid year, there's few if any items that haven't been addressed.

Of course, having the car done early and having the time to break it repeatedly helps a great deal in all of this. Few parts on the Feb. 1 car will be 100% the same May 15th.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Does anyone have a back up? I mean do you have another guy who knows about a particular part of the car in case something happens to guy who designed/made it?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a great idea if you can do it. When one person establishes exclusive knowledge in a domain, the more irreplaceable he/she becomes. And it's not only a problem if they get overstressed, sick, have personal issues, etc. - when they graduate, you can get really screwed.

The formal term in social network analysis for this is "structural hole" - a node in a network that has numerous non-redundant ties, such that the node's removal creates significant disruption.

Indispensible people are great to have around, but it's a good idea to have someone shadow them, if only to learn from them and retain that knowledge for future teams.

dartmouth01
02-06-2005, 06:58 PM
I really like how Michael breaks it down, well said.

I do have to say that one of the phrases I used alot this year (and probably have beaten it to death) is that God is really in the details. And I have made it clear that if I have a critical remark about a part, no matter how seemingly small and insignificant, I will voice it. It doesn't mean that I will make the person who did the work feel bad (on the contrary, I want to instill in them pride for putting in all this time into the program), but I will suggest that something can be done better if I think it can. And most of the team has caught on, and started to watch each other as well as double check themselves.

BStoney
02-06-2005, 07:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by alfordda:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by -:
Yeah, but aren't the rest of you guys behind schedule too? The guy doing the wiring has the excuse that he is just too darn short and that hinders him being able to reach the phone and call for switches and such. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wonder if this is true for all the wiring guys. We may have to put phone books in for our wiring guy so he can drive the car, right B.J. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All I got to say, is Dan, you're not too far behind!!! HAHAHA. This year, the frame accomdates the short of us much better http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And yes, this thing will be wired properly and more cleanly, again, thanks.

And yes, the more anal one is about wiring, the better the system turns out and less problamatic.

About the indespensible point, make sure you have a mentee below you to pick up things when you leave, that is crucial to maintaining continuity and a continually improving progam. Sounds simple, but obviously very difficult at times.

Michael Jones
02-06-2005, 09:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
It doesn't mean that I will make the person who did the work feel bad (on the contrary, I want to instill in them pride for putting in all this time into the program), but I will suggest that something can be done better if I think it can. And most of the team has caught on, and started to watch each other as well as double check themselves.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Constructive feedback properly delivered is a huge part of quality. A strong team member accepts such feedback without prejudice, and a strong team culture encourages everyone to offer feedback to others, regardless of role or rank.

Not as easy as it sounds, unfortunately. In many organizations, people are scared to offer constructive feedback to superiors, fearing retribution. Some smaller groups especially don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or cause a stir - even if that's precisely what's required.

My experiences with FSAE suggests neither of these are problems usually. The biggest problem tends to be feedback that's not constructive (e.g., saying something completely sucks, without any followup, reason, or hints to fix it) and feedback delivered in a socially idiotic manner (e.g., ripping someone a new asshole by email, yelling at people in front of many other team members, spreading backstabbing gossip against a team member, etc.)

BStoney
02-07-2005, 09:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Jones:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
It doesn't mean that I will make the person who did the work feel bad (on the contrary, I want to instill in them pride for putting in all this time into the program), but I will suggest that something can be done better if I think it can. And most of the team has caught on, and started to watch each other as well as double check themselves.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Constructive feedback properly delivered is a huge part of quality. A strong team member accepts such feedback without prejudice, and a strong team culture encourages everyone to offer feedback to others, regardless of role or rank.

Not as easy as it sounds, unfortunately. In many organizations, people are scared to offer constructive feedback to superiors, fearing retribution. Some smaller groups especially don't want to hurt anyone's feelings or cause a stir - even if that's precisely what's required.

My experiences with FSAE suggests neither of these are problems usually. The biggest problem tends to be feedback that's not constructive (e.g., saying something completely sucks, without any followup, reason, or hints to fix it) and feedback delivered in a socially idiotic manner (e.g., ripping someone a new asshole by email, yelling at people in front of many other team members, spreading backstabbing gossip against a team member, etc.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree completely, and everyone has done this I am sure at one point or another. It's all about maturing as a team and building that kind of atmosphere.

drivetrainUW-Platt
02-07-2005, 01:20 PM
Ah, wiring!
Since we painted our frame at competition in 04, once we had our engine running, yes for the first time in that car, we stripped everything down to the bare frame, painted it, waited a few hours and reassembled. Everything went back on as it came off, except for one part, our LED tach. Well, apparently it was interupting the ignition trigger signal we were pullin from the coils, making firing order all but imagionary, so back to importance of clean wiring...the one guy that had wired the car and knew what was going on in the rats nest of wires was runnin on no sleep for a few days, and noone thought of checkin to see if the tach was skrewing things. after a long nite in the trailer pullin plugs and checkin every connection. once we realized and pulled the led tach off it started right up. point being, have a wiring diagram, I now understand basically every electrical component on the car and could get a way with out a detailed diagram, but thats like 3 of 20 ppl on the team that understand it. I dont know why, but we have a really hard time gettin electrical engineers on our team.

raska
02-07-2005, 02:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jayhawk_electrical:
What programs do you use to diagram electrical circuits in your cars? I've been using SmartDraw and that seems to work okay. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've been using Protel, which I find nice for schematics, wiring diagrams, and pcb design.

BStoney
02-07-2005, 03:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I've been using Protel, which I find nice for schematics, wiring diagrams, and pcb design. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Raska,
Where can I get my hands on a program like that?

Igor
02-10-2005, 04:03 AM
Protel can be found at www.protel.com (http://www.protel.com)
You could also use Eagle from Cadsoft, at least that one's free. I personally like pencil and paper, much faster but slightly less legible for the rest of the team. The complete diagram for a car like this isn't that complex anyway.
We use autocad at the office, but I'm not really convinced yet.

On getting electrical engineers, try to find one that likes beer, they tend to be a bit more openminded about projects like this and are more fun to be around. At least you can get them drunk and then have them commit to the team :-)

Igor

BStoney
02-10-2005, 02:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Igor:
Protel can be found at http://www.protel.com
You could also use Eagle from Cadsoft, at least that one's free. I personally like pencil and paper, much faster but slightly less legible for the rest of the team. The complete diagram for a car like this isn't that complex anyway.
We use autocad at the office, but I'm not really convinced yet.

On getting electrical engineers, try to find one that likes beer, they tend to be a bit more openminded about projects like this and are more fun to be around. At least you can get them drunk and then have them commit to the team :-)

Igor <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

HAHA!!! Yes, pencil and paper is easiest...but no one else can decifer my circuit. Oh well.

Michael Jones
02-10-2005, 08:06 PM
The first iteration of the Cornell 2002 wiring harness was a rat's nest. Worse, the people in charge didn't seem to give a shit.

One of our more insanely hardcore team members that year - who spent a bit of time with an undeterminable major before ending up in civil, but never was EE - did a paper and pencil diagram of that system and a similar paper and pencil version of a new, insanely more rationalized version.

Paper and pencil works better than you might think. You would never consciously draw the first version. Apart from being very difficult to do, you'd realize halfway through what total shit it was and start over.

While certainly possible to design in Protel or similar tools, the redesign wasn't so complex that it was necessary. Much of the redesign was based on functional and locational grouping of circuits and wiring, laid out fully on paper. It was a complex and large diagram to be sure, but doable.

The success of the project was the redesign of the fuse/relay/central connecting hub box. This was the epicenter of nastiness in the first version, and the epitome of simplicity in the revised one - so good, that successive cars still run only minor iterations of the same design.

Good design trumps good tools any day.

BStoney
02-11-2005, 02:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Good design trumps good tools any day. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said Michael.

With these cars, simple is best, just follow your basic rules about 12V (majority of circuits) and 5V (for your micros, etc) wiring and you're set. No need for a rats nest...clean and simple...plus it looks a hella lot better...not to mention troubleshoot if you do run into a problem!

Nick T.
01-10-2009, 09:26 AM
@Michael Jones

very good points and thoughts, seems like you have really considered "quality management" as a theory beyond good organisation but as an attitude instead.

@all
Does anyone have any experience with Quality Management Systems in motorsports/ FS?
Does anyone know any literature/ recommendable books concerning that topic?

Why I´m asking:
The Formula Student Team from RWTH Aachen has always been quite sovereign concerning control from our university which lead to a high level of independance on the one hand, but problems with keeping knowhow in the team after old members left it on the other because there was noone staying with the project for more than 2 or 3 years, why the probability for the repetition of mistakes increased.
That´s why we decided to implement a Quality Management System based on the DIN EN ISO 9001 norm.
And I´m searching for similar cases or other teams that have worked on that topic somewhat "scientifically".

cjanota
01-18-2009, 10:11 PM
This may be a dumb question, but why solder a crimp connection in the first place? It is my understanding that the solder will just make the connection brittle.