07' GSXR questions/delema

[F-125]

Hey everyone,

I figured this would be the place to find some techinal help solving some problems.

I've been contracted to build a GSXR 600 kart. No, its not a drift/tire burning play toy. This will be a Superkart (road racing) prototype.

I have tons of questions and no real resource to answer them. First, the engine will go next to the driver...no big deal a SuperKart chassis is plenty wide enough but it's too darn tall. I need to get rid of the "pan" section of the crankcase cover to lower it.

1. Has anyone done this?
2. What type of sump tank/fittings/resevoir will be needed?
3. Where should it be located?
4. How big will it need to be to keep proper oiling to the engine?
5. Will the OEM pump provide enough pressure with a system like this?


I'll throw this at you as well.....

The OEM air box is WAY TOO BIG (tall)

1. Will it run without the box?
2. Can I make a smaller unit and reinstall the OEM sensor? Will it work?

The US Superkart community thinks this is the wave of the future. Yes, a single or V-twin Dirt Bike engine is probably a better fit but the 600's are very cheap in comparison. I'm doing a job and won't question the madness, just need some answers to getting the package smaller.

Thanks for any insight.

Robert

[F-125]

Hey everyone,

I figured this would be the place to find some techinal help solving some problems.

I've been contracted to build a GSXR 600 kart. No, its not a drift/tire burning play toy. This will be a Superkart (road racing) prototype.

I have tons of questions and no real resource to answer them. First, the engine will go next to the driver...no big deal a SuperKart chassis is plenty wide enough but it's too darn tall. I need to get rid of the "pan" section of the crankcase cover to lower it.

1. Has anyone done this?
2. What type of sump tank/fittings/resevoir will be needed?
3. Where should it be located?
4. How big will it need to be to keep proper oiling to the engine?
5. Will the OEM pump provide enough pressure with a system like this?


I'll throw this at you as well.....

The OEM air box is WAY TOO BIG (tall)

1. Will it run without the box?
2. Can I make a smaller unit and reinstall the OEM sensor? Will it work?

The US Superkart community thinks this is the wave of the future. Yes, a single or V-twin Dirt Bike engine is probably a better fit but the 600's are very cheap in comparison. I'm doing a job and won't question the madness, just need some answers to getting the package smaller.

Thanks for any insight.

Robert

[VFR750R]

i'm guessing there will be a lot of sustained high g's with a kart like that which means to cut the pan down you'll almost have to do a drysump. places like Pace sell complete kits including pans.

[Mike Sadie]

The biggest oiling problem with using a sportbike engine for a 4 wheeled vehicle is the lateral acceleration. If you stick with a wet-sump and the pan is not designed correctly, you can starve the engine (long sweepers). I found a company that makes a dry-sump for the GSXR600 specifically to be used on cars. It is probably expensive (looks high quality), but some after-market packages are likely cheaper than designing a suitable replacement yourself.

http://www.west-performance.com/drysump.php

If you modify the air box, it may still run, but not to its ability. If you use a PowerCommander type device, you can have it tuned after you make whatever changes you want. I had a job last summer that involved putting a ZX-14 motor in a 3/4 scale "stock" car. On the ZX-14, the airbox actually is the frame so we used a ZX-12 box and a power commander to tune it. It definitely didn't result in the best volumetric efficiency, but it was dirt cheap, clean, and fit under the hood. Good luck.

Mike

[F-125]

Good Stuff, thanks for the quick reply guys!

The owner of this vehicle has a Dyno Jet so along with the tuning tool he should have no problem dialing it in.

Doing the math (air box intake vs. box volume) could I get it relatively close so he can drive it at delivery? I have to have the finished product at Road Atlanta in November. Another guy did this with a rear mounted engine and ran it at VIR with the OEM box (ugly and very top heavy looking!) with no trouble.

Is there an aftermarket pipe manufacture that makes an exhaust to wrap around the engine instead of going under it? Even in kit form (pieces) will be better than carving the OEM pipe to bits.

Again, thanks for the help!

Robert

[Seb@NLR]

we manufacture a dry sump for the gsxr1000, hayabusa etc. We offer a 2 stage or a 3 stage. Having a pan made for a gsxr600 shouldn't be to big of an issue. We also manufacture the shortened relief valves for the system since the pan has been lowered.

The pan is a 1/4 in the front and 1 inch in the rear.
The gsxr 1000 pan is 1 inch in the front and back

Here are some pics of the busa
http://a360.ac-images.myspacecdn.com/images01/57/l_9b50288f5249fe7c77f970d4f3779427.jpg
http://psychobike.com/iB_html/uploads/post-39-94090-dry_sump_kit.jpg
http://psychobike.com/iB_html/uploads/post-39-94203-new_pan_front.jpg

[Kirk Feldkamp]

This oiling controversy is always the topic of contention with motorcycle engines in vehicles with lots of lateral grip. I'll just point to the vast majority of DSR, CSR, and now Formula 1000 cars (not to mention thousands of FSAE cars) out there that dont run dry-sumps or even accumulators like Accusumps. That being said, the above kits both look like proper short-pan kits. If I was on the hook for this project you're doing, I'd probably have a contingency plan for some sort of extra oiling within your packaging, but simply log oil pressure during testing to see whether or not you need something to keep oil pressure from dropping out.

Other than that, I guess the big question is how you plan on mounting the engine. The biggest problem I perceive with a sportbike motor in a superkart (w/the usual solid rear axle) is chassis flex. From what I've seen, these goofballs building the 'gixxerkarts' usually mount the bejesus out of these engines and likely ruin any chance of the inside rear wheel of lifting... which is, well, kinda important if you want this superkart to turn (and tune) like a kart. I think the only saving grace of that stiffer design is that the CG is actually so high that they can get the chassis to sorta flex. Think about how you adjust a kart for a rain setup - you usually 'soften' it by raising up the driver. I guess my advice is to keep in mind there is probably going to be a big balancing act between the stiffness of the engine mounting and the height at which you mount the engine. Maybe you could design that concept in as your major tuning element, and have some sort of adjustable height/stiffness mounting. Just an idea.

You can run a different airbox no problem. Look at something like the airbox on a Radical or a Stohr. The stock throttle bodies are pretty easy to adapt some new airhorns to. A Power Commander will do what you want/need pretty easily.

As for headers, I'm not 100% sure what the package changes were like for the 2007 motor, but this might be of some interest to you: scroll down a bit (http://fsae.berkeley.edu/gallery/2005/b35_construction.html). That's the N/A header I did for our 2001 GSXR 600 a few years ago. It's basically the same lengths and diameters are the same as the stock pipe. Never seen an off-the-shelf "wrap around" kit (especially for a GSXR600). It's really not tough to do that sort of a header. Hell, it was my first header that I ever did. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If you stick with a stock oil pan, you can also stick with a stock pipe, which will save you a boatload of time, money, and manpower.

-Kirk

[F-125]

WOW...very nice!!!

Talking with the owner this morning he has made it clear he will not spend large amounts of $$$ just to make my job easier. I inturn explained that I will not do this mod myself (as he asked!) then be responsible for engine failure. I'm a 2 stroke guy, all this 4 stroke stuff is foreign to me!!

So, I guess I'll concentrate on making it "look" smaller by making a low profile air box instead of actually helping his CG with a oil pan/wet sump.

I guess I can't lean this engine forward either without having oil delivery problems, huh?

Thankfully my contract only involves cosmetics (and some fabrication!). To be honest, handling is not my problem. I must deliver a "push the button and go" machine. To me, this is a novelty piece. IMHO the concept is not feasible in a performance aspect, at least in a serious road racing package in "kart" form. These guys would be better off building a car for this engine but then they wouldn't be able to run it at a karting meet.

I'm a Professional clay model maker/composite tech and an accomplished welder/fabricator but I'm NOT a degreed engineer! Cosmetics is my thing, it will be beautiful....expect to see this thing for sale on ebay in December!!!! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Thanks again for your time and thoughts.

Robert Lawson, RPM Products