Basics?

[Rennich]

What is the basic averages for:

Chassis weight?
Engine weight?
Engine hp?
Total car weight?

What type of trasmission is most commonly used? CVT? Internal?

Right now University of Colorado at Colorado Springs doesn't have a FSAE org. Need some information to maybe start us off for 2009.

[Rennich]

What is the basic averages for:

Chassis weight?
Engine weight?
Engine hp?
Total car weight?

What type of trasmission is most commonly used? CVT? Internal?

Right now University of Colorado at Colorado Springs doesn't have a FSAE org. Need some information to maybe start us off for 2009.

[cmeissen]

From what I have seen for pretty basic first year car. Steel Chassis are normally in the 65-75 pound range. Most of the inline 4 600cc engines are around 120lb. Smaller singles and twins are usually 60-90lb I think. Horsepower ranges quite a bit anywhere from 30 to 100 supposedly. 65-70 is probably average. Total car weight again varies a lot. For a first year team I would aim for under 500 lbs. Most teams just use the internal transmissions found in the bike engines.

The best way to get information would be to contact one of the teams near you and see if you can talk to them and look at their cars. And also try to make it to one of the competitions just to look at other cars and learn from other teams.

[Rennich]

I see that the University of Wisconsin-Madison won last year.

Frame weight 52 lbs. - steel
Guessing Front/rear weight is total weight 260 lbs.
01-03 Suzuki GSX-R600 Engine...still researching for the spec for this engine (hp, torque, weight..)

Is this the goal to shoot for for winning?

[Wes Johnson]

Total car weight according to their page would be 260+345-150= 455 lb.

Keep in mind there are lighter 13" tire, 4cyl cars that show up to comp than this.

[Pete M]

The winner of the competition isn't decided by who has the lightest car.

As a first year team, you will most likely struggle with just designing and building a car, period. It is a much bigger task than it seems. Yes, even if you think you *do* know what it entails. Aim for less than 500 lbs if you're running a 4 cyl, and somewhat less if you're running a single or twin. Don't worry terribly if you don't meet that goal. Try to make it as light as possible, but particularly in your first year that will have to give way at least partially to practicality. Get a car built, get it built early, and test the crap out of it. This will make far more difference to your performance at comp than even 40 lbs of weight.

Does anyone have stats for what percentage of teams typically finish the enduro in their first year? My guess is that it's not good.

[Rennich]

What I'm looking for right now are goals. If I know averages in chassis weight, engine weight, etc. I can set goals for my team to meet. Everyone likes to be praised for a job well done; if they have a target and meet it, then it's even better.

[Pete M]

I agree that goals are important, and you should have a weight target. What i am questioning is *which* goals are most important for a team just starting out. We were 499 pounds at West 06 and we were second in the dynamic events and third overall.

In my opinion, the most important goals are related to time. Set yourself milestones that you are supposed to reach at specific points in the year and pat yourself on the back if you meet them. Overestimate how long the car will take to build by a factor of 3 or so. Allow for a massive period of time (a few months) to track test your car before comp.

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

I agree with Pete. Having been involved with FSAE now for many years, I think that keeping a timeline and meeting set milestones is more important than physical goals for a first year team. Shoot for leass than 600 lbs wet and an engine that starts and runs reliably regardless of how much power it makes.

[James Waltman]

Rennich,
I work with several former FSAE guys in South Denver.
We're all pretty opinionated now about how this project should be approached.
Drop me a line if you want to meet up sometime and talk about this over a beer.

[murpia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rennich:
What I'm looking for right now are goals. If I know averages in chassis weight, engine weight, etc. I can set goals for my team to meet. Everyone likes to be praised for a job well done; if they have a target and meet it, then it's even better. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Set yourself some performance targets for your car, set yourself a cost target and a time target. Do some engineering analysis, decide if those targets were realistic. If yes, go for it, if no - revisit your targets.

Total weight, chassis weight, engine power etc. etc. will define themselves as part of the engineering process, they are not ends to themselves.

This is how product development is done, this is a good way to learn, which is the point of the competition.

Regards, Ian

[IttyBitty]

Not to be redundant...but I'm going to restate Pete's point...TIME GOALS.

Because in your first car, almost nothing will turn out the way you planned...and that should not mean that you feel like you didn't meet your goals. Getting a car done should be your goal - even if its 70 lbs heavier than you anticipated, or whatever else happens to be the case.

And I'm also going to throw this in right now...you may not finish in your time goal. As Pete said, this is a HUGE project. So set one, try to make it, and if you don't keep your eye on the bigger goal - to build a car.

Where's Alex from Stanford when you need him? he can tell you right now what its been like trying to get their team off the ground.

cheers,
Nika

[kwancho]

Aw, I'm being called out on another basic design turned project management topic.
What Nika said. I've spent the last 3 years trying to get a team off the ground, and we're probably disbanding the team because we're not really getting anywhere.
First, make sure you have half a dozen guys as crazy about building a racecar as you are. Second, once you're done designing, you're only about 20% done. Nothing'll work the way you intended the first time.
Get started building ASAP. You'll learn ten times more from actually building a car and getting it running than spending 70% of your time futzing with the design.

[Christopher Catto]

agree with you. just one important point. do not underestimate how rushed or poor design can hinder your progress during build.

so, dont spend an extra day trying to reduce in CAD the mass of your wheels by 20g. but DO make sure if you use cad or something useful for design that you at least sit with a cup of tea and go through all the parts and find out where they interfere. stupid things like radii or chamfers are a pain if one guy does it one way, one guy the other.

team morale suffers when you cant fit the wishbones because the brackets are 5 thou undersize, or splines dont fit well because someone did a cheap job for you so the fit is as tight as hell.

things to think about. KEEP IT SIMPLE. invest time in proper decision making. do not make things out of scrap: they eventually let you down. HUNT FOR SPONSORSHIP. the money will help you at least relax for a bit before you run out of cash. and last thing. keep hunting for sponsorship. have one guy do it on a monthly basis.