Western Washington Approach

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

I am wondering how you guys look at the event. Most teams keep the same general design and compete yearly, while you guys seem to hide for a few years then come out with something insane (aka V-8 or missile tube frame at the '04 comp). also, instead of doing it because everyone else does it and wins with it, you guys take a diffrent path. James Waltman has become a huge contribitor to this forum lately and thats awsome...just trying to get into your heads I guess

[MikeWaggoner at UW]

The last car was actually pretty conventional. The tube frame has been around since '96.

The V8 was amazing, and even though it didn't end up working as a racecar, I wish I had been a part of it (I was a newbie as it was dying, and second year cars were banned; I made a new brake pedal and hooked up some coolant hoses).

There are two main reasons WWU does crazy stuff:

1. A cool departmental director, Dr. Seal, and the amazing facilities he has built. He encouraged us to try huge projects. If they worked, great. If not, they were great learning experiences and things to put on our resume. WWU's last successful race car was Viking 28, a turbo methanol beast that weighed in at 440 (with an F3, which is 10 lbs more than the F4's most teams use now).

2. WWU is a tech school. They're adding to the engineering analysis coursework, but it's a recent addition. Many students feel that in order to make up for a lack of engineering analysis on some things, the car needs a little bit special about it to be competitive.

Recently, the team's been plagued by small numbers and organizational problems. I hope they can get it together for next year's competition, and start bringing cars annually (required for successful competition).

[Travis Garrison]

When I was there to a certain extent we were looking at it more as a learning experience than a competition. We wanted to do well, but I don't think anyone on the team was seriously aiming at 1st place.

Some of the stuff thats done there is, believe it or not, done for a reason. The "rocket tube" chassis is actually quite stiff and stupid simple to make. Take some bulkheads (very simple cnc parts) add some fillament wrapped tubes and you have a ~50lb chass (with roll hoops) in the ball park of 2600 ftlb / deg. The bulkheads take about a month of cnc time max (assuming only weekend machining), the tubes if you hand wrap em are two very solid evenings worth of work, and assembly of the chassis takes an afternoon. I absolutely hated the design when I first saw it, but after building one, and testing v28 for torsional stiffness I love em http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Everyone else thinks I'm crazy though....The big bonus comes in the cost event, the twin tube chassis stomps a space frame for cost, and with good reason. A spaceframe simply isn't terribly realsistic for a production run, and definitely not when made as complex as most frames at comp.

Many of the other components come from the fact the team chooses to build rather than fundraise. NO money + unlimited CNC time & 7050 aluminum = a viking car http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Travis Garrison
UW FSAE
WWU Alum


Oops! fixed torsional stiffness numer...

[rjwoods77]

So what ever happened to the v8 and that v12 crank that you were looking at. I mean besides the starter what kept you from running it again. Also, my buddy runs a very competetive 600cc sprint car. He is allowed to you use any 4 stroke engine under 630 i think. Any chance of getting the motor in his car. He currently has a left side mount with chain drive but we were looking at doing a central mounted engine sprint car like the bigger ones. Would be real cool to have that v8 in there. Any possibilites there? We can do all the fabrication(CNC).

[Travis Garrison]

Any chance of getting the motor in his car.

Sure...just build it.

I think the V30 guys must have been asked that ~1,000 times...

edit: what I should say and I guess what should be obvious is that building that v8 was a helluva a lot more than simply bolting two heads together...and simply having the plans would only put you a small fraction of the way closer to your goal.

Some of the V30 guys lurk around here, if they are interested in helping you they'll probably get in touch with you.

If you're really serious about it start by purchasing some heads from a 250cc 4 cylinder, and make sure you can drive the cams off the end of the crank rather than the center. Once you have the heads in hand I'm sure some of the V30 guys would be much more interested in talking to you.

-Travis Garrison
UW '05
WWU '04

[Jeff The Pyro]

part of our inspiration for flipping the head on our car came from the '67 Ferrari F1 car... it had a v-12 with the exhaust coming out the valley and the intake from the sides... anyways at some point we found out that there was a racing motorcycle (i think from honda) back in the day with a 300cc I6 motor... obviously you can see where this is going.

of course it turns out that only about 5 or so were ever made and they sell for somewhere around $100k each at auctions... but hey... we figured we'd just buy two of them and weld the crankcases together and make a 600cc v12...

[MikeWaggoner at UW]

Originally posted by Travis:

If you're really serious about it start by purchasing some heads from a 250cc 4 cylinder, and make sure you can drive the cams off the end of the crank rather than the center.


I'd nix the idea of the cam chains on the end. It'll be easier to avoid resonance issues with the chains in the center.

[rjwoods77]

honda rc165-174 is one of my favorite bikes. They made an upsized version (1047cc) and put in in a bike called a cbx. I love the way the thing sounds. Has a cool center drive cam setup too. I am a big fan of hondas flat six motor too. When I get out of school and have money I am going to build myself a bike based off of the flat-6.

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/cbx/

Look down and listen:

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/school-SectionSix.htm#ILSCME

[MikeWaggoner at UW]

Funny coincidence:

There were 2 decomissioned CBX's in the loft at Western, sitting there, mostly complete. I bet they're still there, too. They can't be licensed because of the terms under which they were donated, I think.

[Travis Garrison]

I'm in over my head on this one, but I don't think resonance was an issue on the WWU v8, just the particular tensioner setup. Center drive cams lead to a more complex block and crank though...

-Travis

[James Waltman]

I have been posting a little more often lately but let's get this straight first - I've been a contributor since day one. Gotta respect the Sept 12, 2002 registration date. Who else is still around with registration days that old? Charlie and Pat. Angry Joe hasn't posted for a while. Is admin (FSAE.com) the only one with a Sept 11th Registration date? Now that I got that out of the way I can start rambling:

Travis, Mike and I all started at WWU at the same time – fall of 2001. We all really wanted to help and none of us had a clue. We messed around with cooling and brakes on the V8 car. By the spring of 2002 we knew that Viking 30 wasn't going back to competition and it was time to start with a new car. We argued for a while about what it should be. I think that I wanted to make another Viking 28 because that car is pretty awesome. Travis was pretty sure he could fit the chassis tubes between the suspension. That's how Viking 35 started. We took a lot of ideas from some of our older cars but I don't think it was a conventional car at all.

So we argue amongst ourselves about how wild we should make our cars. On one hand we can get away with it because of the freedom and the facilities we have. On the other hand we know that it is a bigger gamble. Travis got it right. Of course we want to do well. We never do anything that we know will make the car slower. But when you're given enough rope to hang yourself...

When I get my diploma this weekend it will say "Major in Industrial Technology – Specialization in Vehicle Design"�. So we're not a real engineering school. That does hurt us in some areas. But it's also a pretty big advantage at times. A few years ago our guys built a V8 engine. It wasn't perfect but it ran and it even moved the car around on occasion. They weren't "real"� engineers and they might have skipped some analysis but they got it done.
In the fall of 2002 there was a student at a real engineering school in the Midwest that was trying to make a similar V8 for his team. I answered all the questions from him that I could and then sent him on to one of the guys that made our V8. That other team wouldn't risk something like that on the new car so he was relegated to something like the "Advanced Development Group Leader"�. I think that he analyzed the hell out of that thing. Guess what, they never made it.

Which group of students is better off? Well, I think that our guys are the best because they could actually get stuff done. But if I wanted to hire someone to calculate the harmonics on the crankshaft – and I didn't care if anything ever got made - I would hire the other guy. (I sure don't want to calculate crankshaft harmonics.) I know he can calculate that because his Faculty Advisor specializes in it. As a funny side note: that Faculty Advisor is trying to jump ship – he recently interviewed for a position here.

I'll try to bring this back to the original question. We have traditionally made as much of our own stuff as we could. We do it because we can. We do it because we like to. We do it because we can't afford to buy much (I swear – most people don't believe me).
When you are going to make it yourself you get to remove a lot of the constraints (and stick yourself with a completely new set). So doing something different is easier when you start with a blank sheet.

So there may be 200 new space frame FSAE cars each year. We might as well try something different. What do we have to lose? It sets us apart a little. It's still fun. It gives us a different set of skills than most of the other teams. I can't fit a steel tube very well but I can do composite layups like nobody's business. I don't want a job fitting tubes and I got a job based largely on my composites experience so it worked out for me.

These are my views and the views that have prevailed at WWU for over a decade. The current team is wrestling with the same dilemma of crazy or conventional. We'll have to see how it plays out over the next few years.

Organization was a big problem for us this year. I feel a little responsible for that because I tried to step back and let new people take over leadership roles. Instead we kind of flopped. I have confidence that it will get sorted out soon and the team will be strong next year.

I think that I might just be rambling at this point but you asked a question that I have spent countless hours thinking and arguing about. I have enough in me for several more installments of this but I need to write a different paper right now.

Travis,
I think you have an extra zero up there. Pull it off of your torsional stiffness number and add it to your "can I get one of those"� estimate.

Rob,
Are you asking about this V12 crank (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/v30/image045.jpg)?

We have about 2 ½ CBX motorcycles that we are trying to get rid of. We are working out how to legally sell them.

[Kevin Hayward]

James,

I'm still here (12 September 2002 Rego as well) ... but I don't like posting nearly as much as I like reading.

It is amazing that the V8 has had the lasting impact that it has. There has to be something said about the ongoing benefits to the reputation (sponsorship inviting) of a team by doing something very different. I would wonder what sort of shadow that has on future teams though.

Do your students feel pressured knowing that your University is constantly linked to work conducted quite a few years ago?

Cheers,

Kev

[threehondas]

Haha!

Three hondas you say? One of my bikes is a CBX and I love it - Just finished putting in a new clutch...




Originally posted by Rob Woods:
honda rc165-174 is one of my favorite bikes. They made an upsized version (1047cc) and put in in a bike called a cbx. I love the way the thing sounds. Has a cool center drive cam setup too. I am a big fan of hondas flat six motor too. When I get out of school and have money I am going to build myself a bike based off of the flat-6.

http://www.motorcyclistonline.com/cbx/

Look down and listen:

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/school-SectionSix.htm#ILSCME

[rjwoods77]

In case you need parts, there is a guy not too far out of rochester that deals strictly in cbx parts.

[Kevin Hall]

Just had to get a post out to say I'm still around....and have a Sept 16, 2002 reg. date :P

I haven't had a chance to post as much as I would like to. Work keeps me goin pretty steady.

I'm still workin at the school, and tryin to shape up the team, but I just can't commit the way I used to.

[Girodisc Martin]

Hello All,

I just stumbled across this site tonight for the first time and then this post. As a '93 WWU VRI graduate, I can tell you that the spirit was just as pioneering and uncoordinated back then as it seems to be now.

I have to believe the freedom Dr. Seal gave us resulted in a greater appreciation for engineering principles. We did alot of unconventional things, some would work wonderfully, and some wouldn't. They were all challenging. We learned by making alot of mistakes! True, we didn't take more of the hardcore engineering related course work, however we had foundry, physics, welding, chemistry, plastics, machining, business law, management, accounting, and then of course all the vehicle specific classes. We used to joke that the breadth of these classes were such that we could be entrepenuers because no-one would hire us with this half-assed degree. It's really more manufacturing engineering with alot of vehicle design thrown in for good measure. We learned "design for manufacture" by actually building things. You break alot of cutting tools and crash a few machines, burn yourself welding, sensitize yourself to every known epoxy, and eventually come out with alot of first hand knowledge that the book worms missed out on.

The one downfall was learning organizational skills. Dr. Seal is in the "genius" catagory. He has a mind that is truly unique in it's approach to problem solving. As he put it, he's "not the victom of an engineering degree". Everything always felt very unorganized however and you had to make your own way. You could make a passing grade with minimal effort and learn nothing, or you could spend all-nighters soldering solor cells together and laying up carbon chassis and walk away with infinately more.

In the beginning, I was worryed about the degree and not getting the job/money others would get with an accredited ME degree. Those of you who stayed in WA and got decent jobs, kudos to you. I chose to move to SoCal (instead of Detroit) and look for work in the design studios. 2 mos later I wound up getting a job as a fabricator at Metalcrafters. I learned immediately the VRI/Seal skipped a very important part of the process. No classes on design, clay modeling, package development, and certainly nothing on interior development. Everything in the VRI cars were "functional" components. I had to learn very quickly how to build things that worked but also looked good. After that I hopped around a couple more job shops and then got into the studio world. First an engineer at Hyundai Design for about three years, lastly an engineer at Porsche Styling Studio for about five. Kinda started at the bottom and worked my way up!

The WWU approach was free-thinking, loose structure, high success rate if you applied yourself. There is a new guy in charge now. I don't know anything about him, or what the course work consists of. I'm sure he'll try to carry on the tradtion but Seals' shoes will be big ones to fill. I'm visiting this summer and hope to see the place if it's open, it's about 10 years since I've been there.

I don't know optics, differential equations, or advanced theories on quantum physics. My degree says industrial technology - vehicle design. It's pretty lack-luster...sounds like it came out of the back of Popular Mechanics. On the other hand I didn't see any Cornell grads around while I was helping design the Carrera GT!! GO Vikings!!

Enough spouting... If I can give all of you one solid piece of advice, take pictures, lots of pictures. I got my first job, when they "weren't hiring" because I had photos of me and V20, V22, V2x etc. Every time you go somewhere for an event, take a camera, get your buddies to get YOU in the pictures. The people who are going to hire you, love hardware, they long to build cool stuff. Show them everything you've done(as long as it's cool) and it goes along way, trust me.

If there are any solid WWU grads looking to get into the design studios, I can steer you towards a couple of sources that can help. First is a mailing list of all the studios in SoCal. Second is the contact to the two major headhunters that deal with temp staffing of these studios. Almost all perm. staff started as temps or contractors. Oh Yeah, find some Catia V4 training(good luck) and that will be a big help!

Good luck all of you in FSAE, it's the greatest experience.

Martin Meade
WWU Alumni 1993

martin@girodisc.com

[Ché]

Martin-

Always reasurring to hear success stories about VRI grads who are doing well despite the "lack-luster" degree. Spring quarter just ended today, and summer starts in a week. Durring this summer a few of us and the new professor (Eric Leonhardt, a former VRI post-bac and mostly responsible for V26) will be repairing V8 molds so that we can make a new composite chassis and body for V40, a prototype for next summer's limited production run of autocrossers (If all goes to plan).

What is most interesting to me about this tread that we at WWU are one of the few teams that have an approach that is so "unconventional" in FSAE. If you think some of the things that we have brought to Detroit are different, you would probably be suprised to hear some of the things that our faculty advisor would like us to try...does "crankcase supercharged parallel twin" (4stroke), "virtual balljoints and hydralic ram steering" sound like things that would be good to have? Here we are encouraged to try new different things because our program (the whole thing not just Formula) feels that there is usually a better way to do it. But as Travis said, looking at the competition as a learning experience probably best describes why we are content to show up with V8s and twin torsion tube chassis. Also though the past acomplishments of our program do cast a rather large shadow and at times it can be hard to get away from this. However one way is to out-innovate and come up with even more radical designs.

[James Waltman]

Martin,
It's great to hear from successful VRI grads. You're pretty much right on with all of your points and descriptions.

Eric Leonhardt took over as director of the program last year. He is a graduate of the program and a great guy. His organizational style is pretty similar to Dr. Seal's. He worked on V24 with Brian Hannon and was one of the geniuses behind V26. I think that Eric Dahl knew him. I was corresponding with Eric Dahl a few years ago but lost track of him after he left Brembo. Drop me an email and we can chat and I'll let you know which guys to talk to if you're coming to visit.

[Edit: oops, looks like Ché beat me to it on a few points]