1st Year Questions

[cablos]

Hello there! Our school is planning an entry for the first time for the 07 competition. This forum has been quite helpful in our initial planning but we still have a couple of questions that perhaps some of you can answer.

1) Weight. What is a realistic target weight range for a first year car? (We plan to build a rather typical 4130 space frame with a fiberglass body powered by an F4i)

2)Tires. How many sets of tires are typically required for one season (testing & competition). We have no data as to how quickly these wear out so we don't know how many sets to buy.

3) Driver Training. What would you guys say is the typical skill level of the drivers in the endurance event. Should we be planning to send a couple of guys to get trained at a racing school or is some informal seat time in the school parking lot sufficient to safely run the event.

Thanks in advanced.

[cablos]

Hello there! Our school is planning an entry for the first time for the 07 competition. This forum has been quite helpful in our initial planning but we still have a couple of questions that perhaps some of you can answer.

1) Weight. What is a realistic target weight range for a first year car? (We plan to build a rather typical 4130 space frame with a fiberglass body powered by an F4i)

2)Tires. How many sets of tires are typically required for one season (testing & competition). We have no data as to how quickly these wear out so we don't know how many sets to buy.

3) Driver Training. What would you guys say is the typical skill level of the drivers in the endurance event. Should we be planning to send a couple of guys to get trained at a racing school or is some informal seat time in the school parking lot sufficient to safely run the event.

Thanks in advanced.

[Jersey Tom]

Focus on reliability.

I think CU's first couple cars were all over 500lbs, maybe 525ish. Heavy beasts. We've since moved down to 465 (05 car).

Think last year we had one set of tires for testing, and one for competition. I'm not a rubber guy though.

Driver training.. racing school will be expensive. I'd go to a cart track near you, or sest some stuff up in the parking lot, get in as much practice and TESTING as possible.

If you have a reliable car that finishes all the events you'd be surprised how many teams you'll beat out.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

weight is not a big issue for a first year car, completing all the events is. Our first car at UWP weighed 625ish, the second year was 525ish....this years will prob be a little heavier then the 525, but we have yet to finish all the events so we are building for reliability not speed.

[Z]

Cablos,

1. Weight.
I agree with Tom and Mike that you should be focussing on reliability. But does that mean you should be building a heavier than average car? NO!

It sounds as if you want to build the "standard car". No doubt some of your team will want to add some "bells and whistles" along the way... Then, so that the car is not embarrassingly heavy, you will decide to "optimize" the size of the rod-ends, and the wheel-bearings, and the axles, and various other critical parts of the car (your intended use of 4130 is an indicator of this). So you will turn up at competition with a "colossus on clay legs" that DNF's in Endurance, if not earlier. And you will say, "Oh well, we did pretty well for a first year team...".

Reliability comes from getting rid of unnecessary stuff - IF IT AIN'T THERE IT CAN'T BREAK!

So if you want to do well as a first year team, KEEP IT SIMPLE. This takes a lot of nerve and self-discipline. A reliable, simple, and fast car can easily and cheaply http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif be built at less than ~200kg/400lbs.

2. Tyres.
Each driver should wear out at least one set of tyres during testing ($ permitting).

3. Driver Training.
As above. Doing lots of "figure-8's" in a parking lot is a good way to start (when the driver can keep the car in a constant four-wheel-drift while rolling a cigarette, then move on to more complex track http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif).

Z

[Denny Trimble]

I agree on the keep it simple and get it done philosophy.

Tires - we usually go through 1 set of tires on the new car before competition, plus a fresh set for the competition. Then as many sets as we can afford for summer/fall/winter testing.

Driver training is crucial, you can gain a huge amount of points in this area. Get your drivers to enter autocross events in their own cars, or drive karts, or play good driving video games. I learned a little back in '99 playing Gran Turismo for more hours than I care to remember. If you can detect understeer/oversteer with your eyes as well as your inner ear, and if choosing and sticking to a line while on the limit is second nature, you have an advantage. Learning new courses and being fast on your first two runs is important, and only comes with experience.

[mtg]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Z:
A reliable, simple, and fast car can easily and cheaply http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif be built at less than ~200kg/400lbs.

Z </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Shooting under 400lbs for a first year team doesn't lend itself nicely to simplicity and reliability. That is, unless you want to run a single cylinder Briggs engine, etc.

500lbs (or a little more) for a simple, no frills car wouldn't be a bad target for a rookie team.

[RiNaZ]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Denny Trimble:
Get your drivers to enter autocross events in their own cars, or drive karts, or play good driving video games. I learned a little back in '99 playing Gran Turismo for more hours than I care to remember. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree with denny here. I spent countless hours on video games and it somewhat improve my driving skills.

I remember going to a local go-kart track and beat everybody who are almost half my weight. I weight about 213 lb, and most of my frens weight about 150 - 160 lb., so that's quite an achievement.

It can never beat the real thing, but at least you can have an idea how under/oversteer works, or even how different lines can actually affect your time.

[Z]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mtg:
Shooting under 400lbs for a first year team doesn't lend itself nicely to simplicity and reliability. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
But it does!

The reason I put the "http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif" next to "cheaply" is that if you aim for a lightweight car that is also cheap, then you really have no option but "simplicity". And with no unnecessary extras, you have less to go wrong, hence more reliability.

Mind you, KISS is not easy. Like I said it takes a lot of nerve and self-discipline. I still reckon an all-steel car with F4 engine at ~400lbs is possible. And it would be easy to build. Just hard to convince the doubters that it would work well before it is built http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.

Z

[nick roberts]

1) Weight. I would say the unspoken ideal for a competetive car right now is between 480-500lbs. The lower the better, but like everyone else has mentioned, reliability goes a long way. If it comes down to 10 more lbs or a less reliable car i know which one i would pick. For a first year team i would shoot for 500lbs, youll probably fall short of that, but its not an impossible target.

2)Tires. This all boils down to how much testing time you have before competition. Last year we only used 1 set for testing, but we finished the car 6 days before Detroit. Now if we had more like 1-2 months of testing I would estimate more like 3-4 sets. This would be used for initial setup, final setup and driver training for each event, and atleast 1 practice endurance. At Detroit we typically use 1 set for SP, ACCEL, and AUTOX; and 1 set for Endurance. Dont forget the rain tires http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif . If you havent already looked into tire pricing, talk to Goodyear. They usually offer very reasonable discounts and their tires are almost as good as the Hoosiers.

3) Driver Training. This also depends on how much time and how competetive you want to be. I would guess that we are on the somewhat extreme side of driver training. I have been to over 20 SCCA events since the '05 competition. Atleast 2 of our other drivers have been to atleast 15. In our situation we dont have a lot available to us for training so we just attend as many events as possible. For new drivers i would suggest a very small/slow course to get familiar with the car and what its going to do. After that just advance as fast as you can learn, making sure not to get in too deep. They are usually pretty good about making the events newbie-proof at Detroit. Accel is just a straight line obviously, Skid Pad is a little tricky, just imagine a sea of cones flying at you while trying to count how many times youve driven in a circle. AutoX and Endurance are just slow versions of SCCA style courses with lots of extra cones and haybales. If youre concerned about safety, just make sure that you can keep up with the car and whats coming at you no matter how much throttle you give it.

-nick roberts
KU FSAE

[cablos]

Guys, all this information is greatly appreciated - Many thanks. One follow-up question though: It seems there are more tire set changes involved in a season than what we anticipated. Do most teams mount their own tires and have their own tire changing / bead breaking machine?(I've read this is easier said than done due to the soft nature of the typical rims used in FSAE and is perhaps something better left to a performance shop) Just wondering. Thanks again.