Crank/Cam Trigger info for Honda F4i

[Marshall.Hagen]

Hello all,

We are attempting to start our F4i motor on our engine dyno for some baseline numbers using our new DTA S80Pro. We had the engine running over the last month using the factory ECM, so we know the engine is functional and in good working order.

Engine dyno graph w/stock ECM (http://www.wwufsae.com/images/news-archives/fsaeenginedyno.jpg)

On to our problem...we believe that the supplied crank/cam trigger values are incorrect. During cranking, the engine will sputter and random combustion events will occur, but nothing organized enough to initiate idle. We are using a tuned map that DTA did for a Formula Student engine at their facility in the U.K., but modified the values to what we believe should be representative of a stock F4i (no restrictor, stock injectors etc).

Attached are some screenshots of the engine settings and misc. maps that may be relevant to our problem.

We have fuel and spark, firing order has been triple checked, and we have manipulated the crank/cam trigger values with no success.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.


General Engine Settings:
http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAgeneralsettings.JPG
Coil Settings:
http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAcoilsettings.JPG
Sequential Settings:
http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAsequentialsettings.JPG
Fuel Cranking Settings:
http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAcrankfuelsettings.JPG
Fuel Map:
http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAfuelmap.JPG
Ignition Advance Map:
http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAignmap.JPG

[Marshall.Hagen]

Hello all,

We are attempting to start our F4i motor on our engine dyno for some baseline numbers using our new DTA S80Pro. We had the engine running over the last month using the factory ECM, so we know the engine is functional and in good working order.

Engine dyno graph w/stock ECM (http://www.wwufsae.com/images/news-archives/fsaeenginedyno.jpg)

On to our problem...we believe that the supplied crank/cam trigger values are incorrect. During cranking, the engine will sputter and random combustion events will occur, but nothing organized enough to initiate idle. We are using a tuned map that DTA did for a Formula Student engine at their facility in the U.K., but modified the values to what we believe should be representative of a stock F4i (no restrictor, stock injectors etc).

Attached are some screenshots of the engine settings and misc. maps that may be relevant to our problem.

We have fuel and spark, firing order has been triple checked, and we have manipulated the crank/cam trigger values with no success.

Any assistance would be greatly appreciated.


General Engine Settings:
http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAgeneralsettings.JPG
Coil Settings:
http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAcoilsettings.JPG
Sequential Settings:
http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAsequentialsettings.JPG
Fuel Cranking Settings:
http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAcrankfuelsettings.JPG
Fuel Map:
http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAfuelmap.JPG
Ignition Advance Map:
http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAignmap.JPG

[Poe]

The stock cam trigger wheel has three teeth. I know with Motec, it needed a single tooth wheel, so we had to grind off two of the three teeth on the cam trigger. Then you have to set the correct parameter in your software for how many teeth trigger the crankshaft sensor between the cam trigger (sync pulse) and TDC of cylinder 1 compression stroke.

[Biggy72]

This is funny because I was talking about the same issue last night with a couple of our other guys and they told me the same thing about cutting off the other two teeth. I'm not sure which one yet because I haven't looked at one in an engine yet to see where they end up at TDC, but a stock wheel looks like this
http://i53.photobucket.com/albums/g41/biggy7213/HPIM1165.jpg

But not to be misleading.... our engine isn't running yet. I'm hoping to have everything rolling by spring break so we can get the old car with new engine, intake, exhaust and everything over to the west side to run on a dyno for as much of spring break as possible.

[The Gus]

I've used the DTA P8 for several years and have had great success with it. In my opinion, the DTA ECU's are highly under rated and one of the best on the market for FSAE use - especially for the price. The new S60 has some great upgrades over my older P8 (logging improvements, idle control, tuning methods, and more). You've chosen a great ECU.

You're lucky that DTA have created a special setting for the F4i crank/cam settings from factory and you don't need to modify the stock trigger wheels (as we did with the P8). To my understanding DTA made the map for Strathclyde University and it was restricted at the time. I feel fully confident that the cam/crank settings above are correct. Your problems are elsewhere – I suspect fueling. I must admit that I have not used the supplied map myself, but hopefully I can help anyways. I have heard another local team has successfully made it work.

Onto your problems.
Is your wiring correct with respect to firing order? Outputs 1,2,3,4 go to cylinders 1,2,4,3 respectively (alternator side = cylinder 1). Goes for coils and injectors. Your 'Coil Settings' and 'Injector Settings' maps look fine. Leave unequal firing off.

Use the 'Test Injectors and Coils' feature to ensure your injectors and coils are functioning properly. Make sure to turn off the fuel pump when testing.

Are you using TPS as main load? (I believe that map was created as such). Did you set your throttle stops for your throttle body? You won't get anywhere if you don't.

I can only assume you have the manual readily at hand when you're doing all this. If not, get it.

There are two issues relating to coils I would suggest. When first setting up sequential on my P8 I had issues upon restart. I found the 'firing tooth on startup' to start better when at 0 vs. 1. Also, if you're using the stock F4i Denso coils, the value for 'coil on time' is too large at 3000. We've destroyed a few sets of coils with that value. I did some tests and was happy with 2200 - we haven't destroyed any coils since using this charge time. You could leave this at 3000 until you get your motor to run reliably, but I wouldn't run it in the car or on the dyno like that.

I think your main ignition map is good enough to get you started. I suspect your problems lie with fuel maps: main, start, and water temp compensation.

I noticed your fueling maps (main and start) are different than the supplied. I'm guessing you've been adjusting them to get it to work. I noticed in the supplied map that water temp compensation is set to 0 at all values - try increasing this to around 30 or 40 percent and starting over with the supplied main and start fueling values. This is a big issue for warm-up and startup – I'm not surprised you aren't running yet. Does your water temp sensor read correctly? If not, fix it. As a matter of interest, with stock injectors and regulator, my fueling at idle is around 2.50ms.

Once you do all this I suggest modifying main fuel map and water compensation (at active engine temp). Hopefully it will at least start.

When you obtain a good idle, then you can play with 'Injector Start Pulse', Start Map, and 'Firing tooth on startup' to get it to start reliably. If you must, the ECU also has the capabilities to start in wasted spark mode until it reaches a preset speed - see the manual if you want to try this too.

Your dyno graph above shows some very high performance numbers - it that with the stock throttle bodies and no restrictor?

Best of luck.

George

[Marshall.Hagen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Gus:
I've used the DTA P8 for several years and have had great success with it. In my opinion, the DTA ECU's are highly under rated and one of the best on the market for FSAE use - especially for the price. The new S60 has some great upgrades over my older P8 (logging improvements, idle control, tuning methods, and more). You've chosen a great ECU. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks. We opted for the S80Pro over the S60Pro due to the fact that we can run four wheel speed sensors with a in cabin adjustable traction control (aggression relative to % slip).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Gus:
Onto your problems.
Is your wiring correct with respect to firing order? Outputs 1,2,3,4 go to cylinders 1,2,4,3 respectively (alternator side = cylinder 1). Goes for coils and injectors. Your 'Coil Settings' and 'Injector Settings' maps look fine. Leave unequal firing off. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We assumed fire order of 1,3,4,2 - this is different than what you say. I will go double check the factory manual.

The outputs are as follows:
Cyl: 1 - 3 - 4 - 2
O/P: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Gus:
Use the 'Test Injectors and Coils' feature to ensure your injectors and coils are functioning properly. Make sure to turn off the fuel pump when testing.

Are you using TPS as main load? (I believe that map was created as such). Did you set your throttle stops for your throttle body? You won't get anywhere if you don't. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We have used this test a few times now, it is pretty sweet I might add http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We scaled the TPS to match the Honda unit. As well as temperature (air and water), and manifold pressure.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Gus:
There are two issues relating to coils I would suggest. When first setting up sequential on my P8 I had issues upon restart. I found the 'firing tooth on startup' to start better when at 0 vs. 1. Also, if you're using the stock F4i Denso coils, the value for 'coil on time' is too large at 3000. We've destroyed a few sets of coils with that value. I did some tests and was happy with 2200 - we haven't destroyed any coils since using this charge time. You could leave this at 3000 until you get your motor to run reliably, but I wouldn't run it in the car or on the dyno like that.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the tip. We were aware that the Honda/Denso coils are fragile and prone to overheating, but we were unsure of how much dwell was too much. I will be sure to decrease it before doing any prolonged testing.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Gus:
I noticed your fueling maps (main and start) are different than the supplied. I'm guessing you've been adjusting them to get it to work. I noticed in the supplied map that water temp compensation is set to 0 at all values - try increasing this to around 30 or 40 percent and starting over with the supplied main and start fueling values. This is a big issue for warm-up and startup – I'm not surprised you aren't running yet. Does your water temp sensor read correctly? If not, fix it. As a matter of interest, with stock injectors and regulator, my fueling at idle is around 2.50ms. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I manipulated the fuel maps to compensate for the additional 20cc of injector from what the map was originally scaled to, and the fact we are using the factory engine configuration (throttlebodies, exhaust manifold...etc) until we get used to the DTA software.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Gus:
When you obtain a good idle, then you can play with 'Injector Start Pulse', Start Map, and 'Firing tooth on startup' to get it to start reliably. If you must, the ECU also has the capabilities to start in wasted spark mode until it reaches a preset speed - see the manual if you want to try this too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yea I forgot to mention we got better 'sputtering' when selecting batch fire (up to 1000rpm). Still an indication we are off on something...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by The Gus:
Your dyno graph above shows some very high performance numbers - it that with the stock throttle bodies and no restrictor? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We were very happy to get those numbers. We jumped 6hp/4tq by switching to copper NGK plugs and changing the oil. That is a completely stock F4i configuration. Factory ECM, throttlebodies and exhaust manifold. We are using a SuperFlow SF901 engine dynometer, and calibrated the torque arm to within .01 lb-ft. The engine we are using for dyno testing is also a California model, so theoretically it should have smaller camshafts as well.

Thanks for all the help George, we are going to investigate the fire order further, and hopefully have an update by the end of the day http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Marshall-

[slow_vw]

curious to see what you guys come up with as the cause...i think your issue is still one of ignition timing, if i understood correctly how it's timing the fuel injection during cranking it seems as though that portion is fine.

[Marshall.Hagen]

We changed the fire order to the correct sequence referenced in the Honda F4i manual.

Now the output is as follows:
Cyl: 1 - 2 - 3 - 4
O/P: 1 - 2 - 4 - 3

During cranking, there is no longer any random combustion events. So the problem still exists somewhere.

We tried changing the "firing tooth on startup" to both 0 and 1 for the new fire sequence with no success.

I changed the water temp correction table to start at 75% enrichment at 32degF (0degC) to 5% at 122degF (50degC).

I left the primary fuel table as is, but will continue to work with fuel compensation values later today.

Can someone double check the "sensor position" values from our general engine settings (see first post) and the "cam sensor position" from our Sequential Settings (see first post again).

We are trying to open a line of communication with DTA, but being 9 hours spread makes it difficult.

Thanks in advance,
Marshall

[Marshall.Hagen]

We got the engine to fire. Not sure what we changed, but we took a lot of fuel out of the main fuel table. We are down to 1.3ms for injector pulse width in the idle cells.

We are attaching the wideband right now and will begin tuning.

[The Gus]

Great to hear. Have fun.

[Grant Mahler]

Off the top of my head, those timing values look wicked advanced to crank. But I haven't ever run an F4i so you can ignore me. I know for our Suzuki single cyl it is 8BTDC at idle, and I'm told for the Yamaha it isn't much more, I think 11 or 13 at idle. Again, these are single cylinder engines...but they are appropriate size, compression, etc. to make comparisons.

Also, if you can get it to crank, check timing with a light. If it is what you think it is, then start playing with maps. If it isnt what you think it is, then start playing with sensor position value (currently at -60 I think you said).

[Poe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm not sure which one yet because I haven't looked at one in an engine yet to see where they end up at TDC </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It shouldn't matter as long as you enter the number of crank teeth to cylinder 1 TDC (motec's cRIP value). However, make sure the cam trigger happens as close to directly in between two crank teeth as possible. Sounds like this wasn't Marshall's problem, though.

11-13 degrees of timing at idle sounds about right to me too.

[Marshall.Hagen]

Just an update for those that are interested.

We got the engine running, and I was able to get a repeatable steady idle using Alpha-N tables. Later tonight I converted all the maps to Manifold Pressure, and was able to begin the tune. Idle is at around 1900-2100RPM, AFR's are in the mid 14's. Timing values are 20deg BTDC.

I do have one question for someone to answer: What seems reasonable (or expected) in terms of manifold pressure at idle, in KPa. I am seeing 65-72KPa at idle ( 2000RPM ). I am running the factory Honda MAP sensor, T'ed into all four runners. I am going to look into the voltage scale in the morning to make sure it is correct. I only ask because when I tune large cam/overlap Honda inline-4's (1800cc+) with individual throttles, they are right around 25-35KPa, give or take depending on other variables.

Also having a bit of a problem with starting the engine when at temp (65degC+). I am going to mess with the cranking fuel trim to see if that helps some.

Cheers,
Marshall

[Grant Mahler]

Good to hear that someone got their engine running.

Also, this is an excellent thread. I wish all threads were like this.

[The Gus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> We are trying to open a line of communication with DTA, but being 9 hours spread makes it difficult. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've had great success by emailing DTA with my questions. They usually respond right away and given the time zone changes means I can ask a question at night (local time) and have a response when I wake up in the morning. On a couple rare occasions I have also called at 4am local time when they are just opening shop. This is a little easier for me as I'm only 5hrs behind. It was very helpful/convenient at the time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> What seems reasonable (or expected) in terms of manifold pressure at idle, in KPa. I am seeing 65-72KPa at idle ( 2000RPM ). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've mostly used Alpha-N tuning, but the few times I've actually hooked up the MAP sensor it was reading around those pressures. That doesn't mean my setup was working correctly - I wouldn't be surprised if my intake had leaks and I was obtaining an idle simply through reduced timing (which is around 8-11 deg; 20 deg would cause engine to increase speed significantly – It's worth mentioning my idle was not ˜smooth' and I have never been truly happy with it, but it works – I didn't exactly spend all summer figuring out the root cause of my poor idle either, I have other suspicions and priorities).
From what I've read, it is typical for high speed engines (late closing intake valve?) to have higher manifold pressure's at idle – I think this is partly why many people recommend using Alpha-N for race engines (higher resolution in the map (0-100%) vs Speed-Density(60-100KPa)). 70KPa still sounds too high.

Did you look at manifold pressure with the stock ECU configuration? Is it difficult to switch back to that setup just to check this value?

I should add that I have tuned several large V8 engines and I have also found the manifold pressure to be around 25-35KPa, just as you suggested above. With stock cams towards the 25KPa range, and aggressive cams towards 35KPa.

George

[Marshall.Hagen]

I'll attempt to call them next time I have a specific problem. Who did you talk to? Allen?

Anyhow, I wanted to use manifold pressure without the restrictor to get used to how the software behaves. I've tuned a number of cars before getting involved with FSAE, and I've always found that a good MAP based tune will always drive better than a good Alpha-N tune.

We used manifold pressure on last year's car using Megasquirt. I was able to get a 2300-2500RPM idle with a +/- 150rpm fluctuation, which took many hours to dial in.

When we switch to a restricted intake, I will most likely begin my basemap using MAP, and if it becomes obvious that Alpha-N will work better, I will make the transition.

My problems right now are with hot start and idle. It doesn't like to fire right up once it is at temp, and once I get it started and idleing again, it always seems to be either more rich or more lean than before. Frustrating.

Regards,
Marshall

[Steve O]

Have you checked to make sure you don't have any coolant temp correction? Our stock correction maps on our ecu were very annoying while we were doing our baseline tuning so we zeroed them all out and brought them back up to where they should be once we got the tuning all set.

Could it be an airleak on the intake? ...rubber boot heating up to much and losing the seal?

You could be too far advanced... in hot conditions that would cause it to predetonate in low rpm range. As suggested before, cranking should probably be around 8-15deg. This number is assuming; however, that you get a good signal while cranking. I know that a lot of these motors (including ours) get a strange cranking rpm reading or get random spikes or what have you while cranking which makes the cranking advance tough to nail. We have a completely separate full range cranking map though which automatically takes over and locks our timing in no matter what the signal while its still cranking (as long as its only spikes and not constantly off by too much to make it think its not still cranking!).

I would say your map pressure, as you suspected, is off. We are not running the f4i but we run at about 35-40kpa at idle, 70 is really high for idle of anything, I would say most vehicles idle between 20-40... if your map sensor is working properly, that means your motor wants to draw in much more air than you are giving it and I would open up your idle set screw a little and set your idle with fuel and ignition instead. Of course if you have an 02 sensor reading not really rich values than (assuming your 02 sensor is reading correctly!) this is probably not your problem and is your sensor settings or sensor itself.


I know most of that stuff was painfully obvious, but I know it can be really easy to overlook some of the simple things when you are an engineer...we always like to think our problems are much more complicated! That said, hope something I said helps you out!

Steve


*Edit* I was looking through your maps above and sure enough you do have fuel correction under cranking based on coolant temp, which goes from 75% to 0% in your [most likely] typical cranking range at 60degC. I would say this is probably not a coincidence considering that is exactly where you have troubles starting. I am going to assume that "turns" is revolutions from when you first hit the starter button and I would say that if it starts great under cooler conditions make that top portion that is 75%, 60% from 60-100 and maybe 40% for anything higher. I would then probably take that region that is all 25% and make it 10% all the way to the right. If you backfire, if it starts hard...check your log as to how many turns into the start you were and bump up the respective % value. In fact if it starts up great after changing it to 50%, I may recommend dropping it down until it starts noticeably harder, then go back up a little bit so that you are in a good range to crank, but not so much fuel that you backfire and blow up your intake...you may; however, need the 50% extra fuel during cranking. To give you an idea of what you might need, we run a single cylinder and in our post start enrichment (same thing as this except ours is in time not turns) at 0 seconds which is our cranking condition I think we run our injector around 2-2.5ms depending on temp compared to our idle of 1.5ms...I think...which is a range of about 40-70%. I can get you some more exact numbers if you want, I am just going on memory as I am no where near the car right now.The first 100 cranks should be your most important for a warm start, you may not need any enrichment after that, but get it to start first and then kill off your post start enrichment where its not needed.

[Diablo_niterider]

hey marshall ,
i m currently workin to get our F4i started with megasquirt
we have 12 teeth crank wheel and a single cam tooth wheel which triggers at 60 degrees before tdc on the exhaust stroke with respect to cylinder 1

would like to know what your trigger angles were with the f4i

we are sputtering too at the moment...

[Poe]

I don't know how you would enter (or have entered) that into megasquirt, but if you're not referencing TDC of the compression stroke, you probably should.

[slow_vw]

have your read through the MS manual for 4cyl COP settings?
http://www.msextra.com/manuals/MS_Extra_Basic_Configuration_Manual.htm#seq_cop

do you have 24 as your base teeth #?

[Marshall.Hagen]

I just finished tuning and testing the DTA's fuel curves with a load based map. I must say, the results are even surprising to me.

Here is the comparison of the two best F4i stock ECM runs with the two best DTA S80pro runs. All variables have been held equal, water temps and air temps were both within a couple degrees of eachother. No other changes were made besides the ECU switch. The F4i runs were done about 3 weeks ago, the DTA runs today. Remember, this is with a stock throttlebody setup and stock exhaust manifold! Power is represented with SAE corrections.
http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAvsStock.JPG

We are really proud of the results. Spark advance was not tuned to its fullest, we will add exhaust temp probes to each runner next week and retune ignition. Fuel was tuned to 13.0:1 flat from 5,000 to 14,000RPM.

The engines fires within a few seconds of cranking, and idle seems to be spot on. So all the small glitches I had earlier this week have been tuned out. I spent a good 7 hours today getting the load based map to idle and start they way I wanted to.

Here are the load based spark and fuel tables, as well as the cranking fuel table and warmup enrichment table. Hopefully these will help someone in the future when they need to start a stock F4i.

Remember, this is with a stock throttlebody setup and stock exhaust manifold!

http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAloadfuel.jpg

http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAloadspark.jpg

http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAcrankfeul.jpg

http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAwarmup.jpg

To confirm our results, tomorrow we plan on putting the stock F4i ECM back on and running three back to back tests. Then immediately after, doing three back to back tests using the DTA.

We also have our exhaust manifold almost finished. I will post up new dyno graphs comparing the exhaust manifold (still w/o restrictor on intake) compared to both the DTA tune and stock F4i ECM.

Thats all for now. Thanks again for everyones help.

[Matt N]

Regarding the difference between stock and tuned power numbers:

I'm sure Marshall will clarify soon, but it seems that our claim 'all variables were held constant' was not true. The stock controller was reinstalled and re-baselined today and made 110bhp. The exhaust routing and sealing was improved between the stock runs three weeks ago and this week. Apparently EGR is not good for power.

Matt

[John Furtado]

Not to mention there was a fan blowing fresh shop air into our dyno room during the DTA runs.

Derek, let us know if you need a chassis dyno during spring break. We might be able to help you out.

[Biggy72]

John,
Thanks, but we have a sponsor in Olympia that one of our guys used to work for before coming over here for school. He's pretty supportive of what we're doing so we should have plenty of time on his dyno.

[Marshall.Hagen]

Yesterday we performed a validation test to see whether the results from Friday were correct or not.

When we arrived, we switched to the stock F4i ECU and setup the room in the exact same configuration it was the night before. We did four back-to-back pulls with the F4i ECU once water temps reached 180degF.

We then switched back the the DTA S80pro, and did another four back-to-back pulls.

This graph represents the two best F4i ECU pulls, and the two best DTA S80pro pulls. All runs on the graph were performed within a two hour period of time. Conditions were equal on all runs, we made sure water temp and air temp were at the same level before making each pull.

http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/DTAvsStocknew.JPG

The two things we have changed since the runs on the stock F4i ECU three weeks ago was the addition of a second fan that helped circulate the air around the dyno room, and the improvement of the exhaust ventilation. Our best guess is that at high RPM's, the exhaust gasses were being forced out of the slip-fit connection we had, and were being sucked into the intake. As Matt said, EGR isn't ideal.

Here is a picture of the dyno room and tuning station.

http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/FSAE015.jpg

http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/FSAE018.jpg

http://www.itrspec.com/FSAE/FSAE022.jpg

[slow_vw]

so its matching stock almost exactly, not bad either!

and on another high note, the dyno itself seems to be returning repeatable numbers.