Megasquirt vs. PE?

[PedalOnTheRight]

Just trying to decide what system I want to go with for the future. Motec is a bit out of our pricerange, and I know we can make a well tuned effort with either the Megasquirt or PE ECU. Just wondering everyone's opinions about both.

Danke

[PedalOnTheRight]

Just trying to decide what system I want to go with for the future. Motec is a bit out of our pricerange, and I know we can make a well tuned effort with either the Megasquirt or PE ECU. Just wondering everyone's opinions about both.

Danke

[Jonathan R.]

The first thing to ask yourself about is if your team has the ressources (electronic guys, knowledge and time) to go with Megasquirt. Even if it seems like a puzzle and the only thing you have is to put the pieces together, in reality its not that easy. You need to well understand the details of an ECU. Many problems will come out that you will have to debug and resolve correctly. But there's a big community around the Megasquirt, so you may be able to get some help from others that have previously done it.

[Dan G]

PE is undoubtedly easier to install and use. Its a very powerful and well developed system. It has excellent support, especially for FSAE teams.

With a megasquirt, there are a lot more empty blanks that you have to fill in. Every single user has a different setup. There are umpteen different hardware configurations. It can be pretty confusing, and very frustrating.

I don't have any first hand experience with the PE, I've been a MS disciple for about 3 years now. I'm puzzled that everyone seems to be terrified of assembling their own PCB. It is literally no more difficult than paint by numbers! The components come labeled with the codes that match the silkscreen on the board, thanks to an automated Digikey BOM. Then you just follow the wordy 24-page assembly section (http://www.megasquirt.info/ms2/V3assemble.htm) of the manual step by step. Its idiot proof.

Also, if none of that convinces you, then just buy a prebuilt/tested MS! For $399, you get the assembled MS, fancy anodized case, and the same kind of Universal harness kit that PE offers. (Plug one of my sponsors here)
http://www.rs-autosport.com/


I invite anyone interested in seeing what the MS looks like in the car and on the tuning screen to stop by our pit this year. We'll be the car with turbo Briggs and Stratton. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[PedalOnTheRight]

thanks guys, keep it coming.

[jsmooz]

Ooooooooo, nice case!

You guys can come by to see the Megasquirt, but don't expect the turbo with the pace Dan works.

[BStoney]

PE hands down...the easiest to setup and has the best tech support around. Granted, I only have experiences with the Motec and PE, but PE is a great pick, and you can't go wrong.

[kozak]

Let me ask this, i know (have heard) that PE is super easy to install and has great tech support. we have no electrical people on our team do you need that person there to trouble shoot for hours and hours and install and construct, or is it really not that bad.

[BStoney]

Kozak, you definitely aren't required to have an electrical guro there, but obviously it always helps.
Our suspension guy can troubleshoot it, and trust me, if Dan can, anyone can. ha. But seriously, if you can use a laptop and a multimeter, and have some common sense, that will go a long way.

[kozak]

i forgot to add that because of cost and lack of money (severe lack of money) i was thinking of using the prebuilt Mega and tuning software.

[alfordda]

No B.J. has it about right. I've never tried to wire up the system so I don't really know how hard that is. But once its up and running, I could pretty easily make changes and troubleshoot at the track. I really dont do well with all the smoke stored in the wires, so the team tried to keep me away from them as much as possible.

[Dan G]

I wanted to post up some more info on the Megasquirt, I guess this is as good a thread as any, so here goes.

This weekend I soldered up a new V3 MS PCB. To this point we've been running the original V1.01 released way back in 2001. The old one still works fine, the new one just includes some updated circuitry that you'd otherwise have build up separate daughter cards (http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/Megasquirt/IMG_2633) to have. Things like low-Z injector flyback and VR sensor conditioning.

First, a picture of the V1.01 PCB:

http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/Megasquirt/IMG_2098.sized.jpg (http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/Megasquirt/IMG_2098.jpg)

The V1.01 was the first MS PCB released. It was followed by the V2.2, with some evolutionary changes, and then most recently released was the V3 this summer. The V3 is obviously the top dog, designed based on feedback from thousands of installations to improve quality, reliability, and ease of assembly. You can read more about the V3 PCB here:

http://www.megasquirt.info/ms2/pcb.htm

The small square beside the megasquirt is called the "Stimulator". Its an outstanding tool. Its a circuit designed to plug into the harness side of the MS and simulate the engine's sensors back on your test bench. Its used during the assembly of the MS to incrementally check your work, and also during troubleshooting later. It has a bunch of pots you can twist and watch the sensor values move up and down in the tuning software. Anyways, back to the pictures.

Here's a shot of my partly completed V3:

http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/BriggsNSquirt/IMG_2737.sized.jpg (http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/BriggsNSquirt/IMG_2737?full=1)

Its a lot denser than the old one! But its quite obviously an improved design. The components are nice and organized. The whole top row will be connected to a lump of Al heatsink, pretty slick.

Here's a shot of my "bench". The only tools required are a soldering iron, a pair of side cutters to snip the excess component leads, and a laptop to verify the semi-assembled sub-systems are functioning properly. It actually took me a lot longer than I was expecting, but I'm really taking my time, and have been getting easily distracted (Go Stillers!).

http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/BriggsNSquirt/IMG_2736.sized.jpg

You can see all of those little bar-coded part baggies on the table. Also written on each label is the MS-designated code, like R1 or D5 or C21. Assembly consists of reading through the assembly manual (http://www.megasquirt.info/ms2/V3assemble.htm) step by step and following it as if it was one of those ANSYS web tutorials where you just blindly follow the instructions in the manual without really having a clue what you're doing. So while you do get carnal knowledge of the inner workings of your EMS, its not like you're pounding through Kirchhoff's Voltage Law on every loop. A disciplined 7th grader could build an MS with ease. The nice thing about the assembly procedure is that it has you build up individual sub systems at a time, and then check that they work. So you don't just go nuts and solder all the resistors on the whole board, then all the caps, then all th diodes... Instead you start with the power supply circuit. You verify you're getting proper voltage at a couple of places on the ECU socket. Then you move onto the serial comm circuit. You fire up Hyperterminal and make sure what you've soldered so far "talks" back to you. Then you move onto the sensor input circuits. When you're done with that you can plug in the stimulator and it everything blinks and slides and ticks. (Well, everything is still silent, but its really animated!), the last portion of the assembly is for the injector drivers and spark output. This last portion is all I have left on the V3 I started yesterday. By the time I finish I'll probably have about 6 hours into the actual assembly, which is on the high side of they estimate a beginner to take. Of course the last time I soldered an MS was in 2002, so I consider myself a noob again. When I solder up the next V3 for my 951, it will probably only take me half the time.


Right now our engine is running pretty well. The only remaining issues before we can begin dyno tuning are a bit of noise in the VR signal input (should be fixed by the improved conditioner built into the V3) and a similarly noisy power supply thanks to a 50A booster pack. Here's a short video from tonight, although I should have walked over and captured the exhaust note a little better, it really sounds great!

http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/albums/BriggsNSquirt/MVI_2740.thumb.jpg (http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/BriggsNSquirt/MVI_2740)
http://evilallianceracing.com/ipw-web/gallery/BriggsNSquirt/MVI_2740

Cheers.

[slow_vw]

it looks ike the above post pretty much covered all of the megasquirt basics. its an extremely powerful setup and despite seeming semi overwhelming at first if you do enough reading on the msefi.com and megasquirt.info sites you shouldnt really have problems setting up a system that will work for your fsae motor.

my suggestion would be to go with either a V3.0 or V2.2 board (honestly its up to how much you wanna spend) and the MSnS -e 0249 code. in my opinion at the moment theres no reason to run MS II because MSnS -e will do everything MS II will but with a larger userbase and more tech help available simply because its been around longer. MS II has a little more resolution on the injector pulsewidths and spark timing but unless you find MSnS -e unsuitable (unlikely) id stick to that.

also, having tuned one of our previous cars thats running PE, and my own turbo vw and a friends vw, both on MSnS -e i have to say i really havent run across anything that PE has over MSnS -e, aside from the obvious smaller map (but that can be overcome with cleverly picked points for your VE/RPM bins...theres an article on msefi.com about this). the only thing i envy in the PE software itself is the larger map, and the maps themselves are easier to modify in PE because its more like using excel, but MegaTune 2.25 is an extremely powerful program and bottom line its impossible to beat megasquirt for the price in my book.

[Dan G]

Also, the "market value" of used V2.2 Megasquirts has "plummeted" since the release of the V3. I've heard of a few guys buyig used and assmbled/tested/proven V2.2s for as litle as $50!

[slow_vw]

yup, good point, and as you demonstrated in your other post, even V1.0 boards are more than enough. both my turbo car and my friends car are running V2.2 boards with MSnS -e and neither of us are looking to switch anytime soon.
its really hard to beat being able to make one of these setups run a motor for under $300 http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[kozak]

what about ignition coils, i would like to keep the stock coils from the bike. i didn;t see anything on the site about driving stock coils.

[BStoney]

PE will drive the stock coils, as well as others....it's all about the resistance...if my memory serves me right, it is a minimum of 1.0 ohm for coil on plug and then 2.0 ohms for external drivers....

Good luck!

[Dan G]

MS will fire the Denso coils found on the R1/GSX/CBR without a problem. Many people are already using them. I just bought a set of CBR coils to run on my 951.

[kozak]

http://parts.yamaha-motor.com/partimage.gifx?d=25776,2,0


Dan i saw your pics of the denso coils in your pic album. my question is what is the diff. this is R1 electrical system and number 3 and 4 are the coils. the coils you have replace stock coils i guess and are individually controlled by the ECU? i guess what i'm saying is what is the difference, on the parts site i see one thing and on your site i saw something completely diff.

[Dan G]

Oh yeah, I thought you were asking about COPs or 'Coil-On-Plug' units. The MS will fire those traditional 2-lead coils without issue as well.

The tough thing is to be able to control four individual coils. The MS can do that (with a cam position sensor).

[kozak]

we have a '89 fzr motor i'm not sure if it has a cam sensor. so will MS just batch fire the plugs or fore them 2x2.

[Dan G]

Yup, with those stock coils you're limited to wasted spark (batch). Which isn't a bad thing, it should work fine, as they do on the stock setup.

You could upgrade/update to 'true' COP (one spark per cylinder per 2 crank rotations) with a trigger wheel sync'd to a cam sensor and $50 towards a used set of COPs w/ wiring.

[James Morrison]

Dan,

Does the time to assemble the megasquirt ecu show up in the cost report or do you only have to report the purchase price?

[Cement Legs]

I think its quite obvious that if the parts dont come together costing assembly is required. The beauty is that you cost the assembly based on your best performance. In other words, finish you design and understand exactly how it goes together. Put it on the bench with all the pieces laid out where you can get them and put it together like your room is on fire and the engine opens the door. Whatever you do dont cost out prototype construction time.

[Dan G]

I reported 1 hour of "general labor rate" for the assembly time of the MS. That is the average assembly time reported by a few of the guys that sell pre-built units.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

we just fired up our MS computer, all the sensors are working, now to start with Megatune.....

[Dashboard_Dave]

Ive been using a MegaSquirt to EFI my 1982 1.8ltr NA Holden Gemini http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif for nearly a month now.

Took me about 6 hours to build the ECU on a sunday afternoon, but that was a 1 off and i checked and double checked everything as i went along. Mass production could make them in < 1 hour easy.

The software like megatune i have found to be maybe not as pretty as the Haltech stuff, but it certainly has the same functionality.

The best thing i have found about using the megasquirt is that its open source, having access to the schematics and code is very handy for unique applications like Formula SAE.

[slow_vw]

ive yet to see anything as functional as the megatune software, once you start delving into the ini files the things you can do with it are almost limitless. i recently finally upgraded to the 2.25 full release and love it. the old beta i was using was powerful but not as user friendly.