FIA-i mean FerrarIA ruling

[jack]

i cant f'in believe that BS!! so much so that i had to come here and rant.

everything else i would say has already been said everywhere else on the interweb, so i will spare you the rant.

anyway, what a bunch of tools. man, i really hope hamilton shoves his championship trophy right up kimi's ass--figuratively speaking of course.

[Reaper31]

I find it funny that this all started with the Steffney who leaked out the secrets to McLearn. He single handly gave Ferrari the constructors championship.

[jack]

Originally posted by Reaper31:
I find it funny that this all started with the Steffney who leaked out the secrets to McLearn. He single handly gave Ferrari the constructors championship.

yeah thats horribly ironic, pretty funny really.

[PatClarke]

Before you jump to too many conclusions, perhaps you should read this..

http://www.fia.com/resources/documents/17844641__WMSC_Decision_130907.pdf

Regards
Pat

[JR @ CFS]

Pat, perhaps you have a more inside knowledge than most. I was speaking with a couple of guys who recently left redbull and were pretty high up there before they left. They were telling me of the completely incestuous nature of F1 and that what happened between Ferrari and McLaren happens all the time between all teams and that in reality, F1 is like an "old boys" club. Everyone has pretty much worked with everyone else at some point! Do you agree with this and do you simply think that this has been brought to light to drag McLaren, their name and their sponsors names (i.e. Vodafone whom Ferrari lost at the beginning of this year) through the dirt? Ferrari afterall, are no angels themselves!

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone" http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif From one mick to another http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Christopher Catto]

true what you say about being a tight nit club and that most people move around.

however, teams should not be in the business of taking documents from other teams. the fact that a driver leaves one team and tells the new team all that his last team did (how they prepared for testing, how they cured terminal understeer, how their fuel strategy was) happens often even though this is not supposed to happen. the only way to stop this is "gardening leave" for some people high up like what McLaren wanted for Newey or for example letting Gordon Murray work on the F1 roadcar.

however, taking drawings or other tech info and passing it is a big no no. after all, it is very silly of say McL to take on docs from Ferrari because this is just going to lead to the fact that in turn some guy high up may take docs from McL and give them to some other team, say Renault. Starting or pursuing these trends leads to unprofessional behaviour within the workforce.

My teacher Jeff always warned me:

"Chris, however many times some new team or employer asks you to bring in insider information from your previous workplace, just say no. Dont do it. Its bad, its unfair and it damages your reputation. Ultimately it means that nobody can trust you"

This means that people working in F1 may use their experience and skills learned at other teams but never divulge the latest developments. Its natural that some aero guy switching from Ferrari to Renault is going to carry on working in the same way and hence use his latest skills. But this is not to say that when he leaves, he takes with him a bunch of folders with drawings, specs, test results. Or worse, that every two weeks he faxes to his mate the latest stuff!!

I hope this makes things quite clear. Passing on info is bad for all. Sure, its an old boys club but everyone should be focused on their job, not sharing confidential material.

[Brett Neale]

I agree. The whole notion of the "old boy's club" is probably true, and people will talk. But having in your possession a 780 page dossier of technical information is downright wrong!

[PatClarke]

Hi,
lest it be thought that I have an opinion in this discussion, nothing could be farther from the truth!
F1 lost all relevance to me quite a while ago. From being an ardent fan at one time, these days I don't even watch the races!
F1 cars have been reduced to high speed advertising billboards that advertise products that are normally not permitted to be advertised, are of no interest to most of us or even worse, we have no idea what the product is.
I retain an interest in the technical areas, but now even that has stultified and there is far more to be seen and learned from Sports Cars. At least they haven't yet gone so far up a technical blind alley that any original thought or innovation has been ruled out.
I am not and never have been a Ferrari fan, and haven't had much time for McLaren ever since they changed their colour from orange.

I posted earlier so anyone interested would have a quick link to the official report of the FIA hearing.

Pat

[js10coastr]

I've read through the FIA report, and granted I've become a huge McLaren and Hamilton fan this season, the decision made by the World Motorsports Council seems to rely on a lot of assumptions of what was likely. There also seems to be a significant lack of vehicle engineering in the motorsports council (IE the council is made up of business/lawyer types and not one engineer). For example it doesn't matter what spring rates team A is running because team B runs a totally different car and is trying to achieve different performance goals.

[PatClarke]

Js10coastr,
You are so so correct! 10 or 12 years ago I was part of the CIK subcommittee of the FIA, the group that controls karting.
When I arrived I was immediately greeted (somewhat in disdain by some committee members) as "L'Ingénieur". I was 'appointed' (democracy??) by the president, the late Ernst Buser, as vice president responsible for technical matters (there were several vice presidents), yet they still liked to make technical decisions without referring to me. (Sound familiar???).
Often, my time was wasted extracting them from silly decisions. I have no reason to believe the FIA is any different. They have some heavy duty technical advisors, yet make decisions like the one this tread relates to based on statements that use words like 'unlikely' and 'In all probability'!
Their justice system has you guilty until you are proven innocent.
Yet another reason for their irrelevance.
Pat

[js10coastr]

Interesting story Pat...

I'm with you to on the engineering on sports cars being more interesting. Although over the last year or so I haven't been interested at "looking at cars" at the race track. I would much rather run my hands through some data, meet people or enjoy the more "feminine sights" if you will.

If the ruling stands I'm tempted to send Ron Dennis $20 just because I'm appalled at the ruling and don't think that McLaren as a team has done anything wrong (anyone with me?). Also, it'll be interesting with "McLaren" supplying the electronics for all F1 teams next year.

[GreatfulDeadHead]

i've never like f1. Its to heavily ruled and too much cheating to get around it. the rules comittee tries to limit horsepower, so the teams dump millions into developement to get around the rule. Its just a cycle.

I think i'll watch IRL. Good ole fashion american racing.

[RacingManiac]

In any past season I'd say it's of little relavence if McLaren were to have Ferrari's setup information, but what makes this particular season different is the move back to control Bridgestone tire. The fact that Renault who was the benchmark of last 2 years suffers a tremandous lost in performance due to their slow transition to Bridgestone illustrated the difficulty. McLaren in having the knowledge from Ferrari(if not directly applied to their car, at least have some pointer) in the vehicle setup can indeed in my eyes gain a advantage if not at the very least a shortened learning curve to catch up.

I think its naive to say even if you can't find anything concrete that is of Ferrari, then McLaren is off the hook. That is as likely as if a student is caught with a cheating slip in the middle of an exam but he claim he did not use it. It is unlikely he will go unpunished....

[js10coastr]

1. I believe the tires this season are different from the brigestones of last. I'm sure they have similar characteristics, but I assure you that they are not the same as last year.

2. Stephney GAVE the documents to Coughlan. It wasn't as if a McLaren employee stole information, or even "happened upon" the documents. They were GIVEN (almost forced upon) Coughlan.

3. Should McLaren really be responsible for all of the actions of all of their employees? Without concrete evidence of their car benfitting from or incorporating Ferrari details.

4. I would credit Renault's dominance last year to their mass dampers and Alonso.

5. Race cars are incredibly complex, and the interactions and compromises between all of the components is a thing of beauty(this is where my technical interests lay). While all of the teams are trying to achieve the same goal, they take different approaches and try different strategies. Each part is optimized for their strategy. Just throwing on someone else's part or running another team's weight distribution will not make significant gains. Good engineers understand this... most driver's don't and I'm pretty sure the "world motorsports council" does not.

[RacingManiac]

1. True, but seeing how Ferrari was the only competitive team that was using Bridgestone, they'd know more about the tires than anyone else. And since everyone is using the same tire this season, they'd have to do the same thing to the tire to get the tire to perform. This goes with your point 5 as well. A tire which likes certain setup in order for it to be perform at its best is not going to change when used on another car. In this sense FIA gave Ferrari a big advantage coming into this year....

2. While its true Stepeney "gave" the information to Caughlan, it was not refused, nor was it reported immediately to the FIA. Its clear now from the FIA's evidence that Coughlan relayed the information to other people on the team, and at no time this was rejected at all and reported to FIA. In the ensuing investigation, McLaren also resorted to trying to cover up the truth by labeling Coughlan as rouge and acting on his personal goal, which was now known to be a blatant lie. Further, Stepeney in my view stole the document the moment he passed it on to others(like any company we'd work for, a non-disclosure agreement is standard practice, failing that is no different from stealing), and Coughlan and McLaren, in not declaring their possession immediately and such, is no different than possession of stolen goods, a prosecutable crime in most society.....

3. Back to my example of school exam, even if I brought a cheat sheet without using it, if that was found you think I'd be acquitted for having it? As to the company being responsible for their employee, at this point it is pretty clear that Coughlan was not acting alone, and even if the evidence only named Alonso and De La Rosa, drivers are unlikely to act without other engineering support. It might be that Ron Dennis knows nothing til the end, but if a good bunch of their technical staff knows of the information, regardless if they used it, you can no longer say its just a small group of their people who knew this. Besides, management should manage their people in their action in all context relates to the operation of the company....

4. I'll credit Alonso too, but it is clear that they were by far the most successful operation in utilizing the Bridgestone tire, and it is also speculated in many report about their rather odd weight distribution used on their cars. At many point this season Flavio have been mentioning if they had known Ferrari's weight distribution perhaps they wouldn't have been struggling so badly.....

5. See point one....

[Bill Kunst]

Winning is mostly a addiction, especially when its tied to large sums of money and your survival at a job that most only dream about.

If a crack dealer "forces" a drug user to use the drugs, are they guilty or not???? Right and wrong must be black and white in this case.
Bill

[Christopher Catto]

pushing and dealing and forcing is illegal

using is illegal but not such a bad offence as teh above.

back to cars, taking docs outside the factory doors is a serious offence by the individual. if the team set this up then it would be different.

accepting documents is just as serious although to be honest if say something from Minardi dropped through Ferraris letterbox (titanium gearbox casting techniques and all related */COUGH) I am quite sure JT and RB and Mount Zemolo would be rushing for the phone to call Mosley about it and that they would post the offending docs right back.

all in all, I think it is to do with the fact that Stepney had some clashes with the team, that he is of a different nationality and that he had this bright idea of helping out colleagues/other teams. ambitious plan. much easier to take technology from some other small team that is close to bankruptcy. a lesson for those who take notes on ways to cheat/lobby/be a general bully.

[RacingManiac]

different nationality is a stretch, other than the mechanics the whole Ferrari core team is an international mix.....

[Christopher Catto]

i agree totally about the itl mix. however, remember that the big money comes from tabacco and FIAT. So, you ll find that Ferrari is more than happy to hire english people to work for them and is more than happy to blame english people for their disfortune. i think you will be surprised how some people are nationalist and racist against others of different nationality. i hear very often comments about so and so being from this country where nobody is any good, and etc etc.

There will still be some in Ferrari who repeat Enzos words, no matter how out of context these may be. And the brits being "a bunch of assemblatori" comes to mind. And there will be some F1 guys who just loathe Ferrari no matter what. People will not look at things objectively. Ever.