will inclining the engine WRT TO VERTICAL PLANE WILL HAMPER ENIGINE OUTPUT POWER

[major_ashwa]

HI GUYZ ,
WE FINALLY RETURNED BACK AFTER OUR FSAE-A 2005 EVENT. THOUGH WE DIDNT DO WELL WE LEARNT A LOT AS IT WAS OUR FIRST YEAR CAR . ALL I WANT TO KNOW IS THAT BY INCLINING THE ENGINE FROM 45 DEGREES TO MORE WILL HAMPER THE PERFORMANCE LEVEL OF THE ENGINE ,AS THE CYLINDER ANGLE IS ALSO INCLINED WRT TO VERTICAL PLANE . IF ANY ONE CAN ENLIGHTEN ME ON THIS SUPPORTED BY SOME EQUATION OR SAE PAPER WILL BE GREATLY APPRESCIATED.

MAJOR_ASHWA
TEAM ASHWA
INDIA

[major_ashwa]

HI GUYZ ,
WE FINALLY RETURNED BACK AFTER OUR FSAE-A 2005 EVENT. THOUGH WE DIDNT DO WELL WE LEARNT A LOT AS IT WAS OUR FIRST YEAR CAR . ALL I WANT TO KNOW IS THAT BY INCLINING THE ENGINE FROM 45 DEGREES TO MORE WILL HAMPER THE PERFORMANCE LEVEL OF THE ENGINE ,AS THE CYLINDER ANGLE IS ALSO INCLINED WRT TO VERTICAL PLANE . IF ANY ONE CAN ENLIGHTEN ME ON THIS SUPPORTED BY SOME EQUATION OR SAE PAPER WILL BE GREATLY APPRESCIATED.

MAJOR_ASHWA
TEAM ASHWA
INDIA

[mario_rbr]

Hi, the inclination you are talking about is very important for the engine performance, I saw in your website your using a motorcycle 600cc engine, so you have to look in its manual the right angle inclination, the same one it got when it works in the motorcycle, and you will get better results. I hope it hepls.

[Matt Gignac]

The only probable effect that engine inclination will have is your engine's ability to oil itself. If you manage to arrange the sump so that you get oil to your crank, cams, etc at all your expected lateral and longitudinal accelerations, then you're good.

Matt Gignac
McGill Racing Team

[Garlic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by mario_rbr:
Hi, the inclination you are talking about is very important for the engine performance, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you explain how? I can't see how it would effect engine performance (besides oiling of course). If gravity doesn't cancel out, surely it is at least negligible. I would do the calcs but I'm lazy, so I'll request you prove yourself right. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[TG]

I wouldn't doubt Honda if they claim the maximum performance for an engine is when the engine is tilted at a certain angle. The angle stated in the manual for CBR600RR's is 38 degrees from the vertical. So Mario is correct about looking it up in the engine manual.

[Matt Gignac]

But the only thing that matters w.r.t. angle is how the oil gets where it wants to go. The spec in the manual is based on a stock engine. If you're going to be far from this angle, then you're going to need to modify something to compensate.

So you need to make sure that:
-Oil gets from the sump to the pickup
-Oil can drain out of the cylinder head
-Preferably your crank or any other rotatating bits are not bathing in oil either.

Look at Auckland's setup, the cylinder head is more or less at the same angle from stock, just exactly opposite, so I'd guess that oil will drain nicely back into the crankcase. And then there's the dry sump system, surely routed so as to scavenge from wherever the oil will end up.

Matt Gignac
McGill Racing Team

[Garlic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TG:
I wouldn't doubt Honda if they claim the maximum performance for an engine is when the engine is tilted at a certain angle. The angle stated in the manual for CBR600RR's is 38 degrees from the vertical. So Mario is correct about looking it up in the engine manual. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Engineers don't just look things up in a manual. If the manual says so don't disregard it, but don't follow it blindly either. Figure out why.

[TG]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Garlic:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by TG:
I wouldn't doubt Honda if they claim the maximum performance for an engine is when the engine is tilted at a certain angle. The angle stated in the manual for CBR600RR's is 38 degrees from the vertical. So Mario is correct about looking it up in the engine manual. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Engineers don't just look things up in a manual. If the manual says so don't disregard it, but don't follow it blindly either. Figure out why. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't say that you have to use the recommended angle. Just mentioned that they are there and can be used as default. If you want to go through and test various angles, go right ahead.

[Jersey Tom]

This seems really silly. I'm wondering if this is a joke or not. The oiling issue is the ONLY issue with engine inclination.

Performance? Thermodynamics, anyone? Thermodynamics don't care how you orient your engine. Any sort of effect the orientation of gravity is gonna have on where the fuel is going in the combustion chamber, or how and when the flame front moves, I would imagine would be negated by how quickly all this happens.

[Garlic]

Indeed, it's silly. Engines don't care. Wet sumps are the issue here.

[Johnny B]

I'm under the impression motorcylce engines are not very sensitive to oiling issues. How else would the engines lube up while taking turns, when the bike is at an extreme angle?

[Garlic]

That's a completely untrue myth.

Think about what forces are on the oil when a bike is cornering. They push it straight toward the tire contact patch at all times. No such thing as a lateral force on a bike.

[Cement Legs]

I've never had a motorcycle stop working on a hill climb or decent before and my engines have never been gyroscopically mounted either http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Marshall Grice]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I've never had a motorcycle stop working on a hill climb or decent before and my engines have never been gyroscopically mounted either </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, but how much power do you lose going up the hill due to the new engine angle!!!

[Z]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jersey Tom:
The oiling issue is the ONLY issue with engine inclination. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
NO!

If you radically change a water cooled engine's inclination so that the hot water has to leave the engine low down, then hot air (actually steam bubbles) can get trapped in the "attic". If your cylinder head or exhaust valves are up there then you are lucky if you only get a warped head/blow head gasket.

Best layout is cylinder head down low (eg. horizontal engine) with exhaust valves lowest, radiator up high, and all heated water (and steam bubbles) escaping upwards to highest mounted header tank.

Z

[Jersey Tom]

Good call, missed that fine point.

In any case what I was trying to say is the power output of your 4 stroke cycle doesn't care how its oriented.

[Big Bird]

Hi Major Ashwa,

Firstly, congrats on making it over to Oz, and I hope the trip was a good one. Most of us have trouble crossing our own country to get to the comp (and some even crossing our own city), so well done to your team for travelling internationally for your first event (and moreso for winning one of the events).

Given how tightly packaged the Auckland car was I can understand why you have ideas about rotating engines. However until you have established the relevant resources and processes to ensure you can get a reliable "standard" car completed on time, I think going to the trouble of rotating engines is just adding extra complexity and extra problems into what is already a big project. That is not a comment on your own team's capabilities, rather that many teams get too involved in trying to "out-trick" the opposition when a cursory glance through results will tell you that the biggest problem most of us have is finishing. I've already commented a number of times on these forums (and Eddie Martin similarly) that it is perfectly possible to score good points with a rather "standard" design - and until you can score at least, say, over 700 points regularly in this comp, then you are probably better off looking at issues more of reliability and management practices than of potential performance gains. I'm sure that you found with your experience in December, that there is a lot of effort in just getting stuff like cooling systems and braking systems operating correctly. Don't make the project any harder than it needs to be!

Sorry to be waving the big anti-"innovation" hammer around again. All the best, and we all look forward to your return to Oz in 2006.

Cheers all (and Happy New Year)