Value of FSAE?

[Jon]

Question for everyone... Next year I'll be a senior, and will be doing a year long senior design project. I've been interested in motorsports all my life, and was fascinated by FSAE when I started my freshmen year of MechE.

My school (to remain nameless) has a small FSAE program of about a dozen students, who complete it as a 9 month long senior design project... most of which are getting invovled with the project for the first time. I've helped out from time-to-time on our previous cars, so I have a pretty good idea what the project is about, and what it entails.

This past year I've been thinking that FSAE perhaps isn't the best idea for a senior project, given my school's format. I think its difficult to come up with a fully researched, and engineered car given the 9 mo time frame and man power. I feel like its just going end up being a lot of frustration and effort with little pay off. I don't want to be on a project, unless I can be 110% satisfied with my and my team's work.

That said, I really would like to get into the automotive industry when I graduate, and I'm afraid if I don't do FSAE, I'll be missing out on some job oppourtunities. Do you guys feel that FSAE really does make a difference in getting a job in the auto industry? Is it truly a "preq"? Given the format my school uses for the project, is it realistic to have a fully engineered, tested, and justifiable design? Keep in mind, this is my senior year, grades count, and I'd like to have time to find a job, and hang with friends one night a week.

[Jon]

Question for everyone... Next year I'll be a senior, and will be doing a year long senior design project. I've been interested in motorsports all my life, and was fascinated by FSAE when I started my freshmen year of MechE.

My school (to remain nameless) has a small FSAE program of about a dozen students, who complete it as a 9 month long senior design project... most of which are getting invovled with the project for the first time. I've helped out from time-to-time on our previous cars, so I have a pretty good idea what the project is about, and what it entails.

This past year I've been thinking that FSAE perhaps isn't the best idea for a senior project, given my school's format. I think its difficult to come up with a fully researched, and engineered car given the 9 mo time frame and man power. I feel like its just going end up being a lot of frustration and effort with little pay off. I don't want to be on a project, unless I can be 110% satisfied with my and my team's work.

That said, I really would like to get into the automotive industry when I graduate, and I'm afraid if I don't do FSAE, I'll be missing out on some job oppourtunities. Do you guys feel that FSAE really does make a difference in getting a job in the auto industry? Is it truly a "preq"? Given the format my school uses for the project, is it realistic to have a fully engineered, tested, and justifiable design? Keep in mind, this is my senior year, grades count, and I'd like to have time to find a job, and hang with friends one night a week.

[Charlie]

If you are doing FSAE for any other reason other than you are fascinated by it and love it, by all means don't do it. You are right, lots of time is spend on details that aren't technically interesting, and might not teach you anything about engineering at all. But that comes with the territory.

In the automotive industry I think FSAE is very good on your resume, but certainly not a 'prereq.' In the racing industry, I've been told that 'everyone' has FSAE, so the fact its there means little.

Its what you learn that matters. I think FSAE works because it gets students so excited they devote an insane amount of time and effort to the project, and come out with a much better experience and knowledge level than anything else that might fall under a standard class like a senior design project.

Other projects might give you a better overall 'package' where you can have a thesis, a problem, and a more-or-less perfectly thought out solution that you can be happy with. But are you challenging yourself? If you are already afraid of being unsatisfied with the result, and not excited about the experience, I would say its not for you. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But think about it!

PS: if you really think its possible at all to have a 'fully researched' and 'fully engineered' racecar, then FSAE will at the least teach you about the real world! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Jon]

Charlie-

Let me just preface one of my sole motivations and passions in life is the automotive industry and motorsports. I'm continually asking myself, and answering the question of "why" and "how".

I've been fascinated and "around" FSAE since my freshmen year. I could care less about my team's place at the competition as long as if at the end of the day, I can answer of "why". Why was each part designed the way it was?! And certainly some teams are sucessful (in terms of their performance, and what they learn) because they can answer that quesiton. Obviously in motorsports, its difficult to quantify some aspects of a race car in terms of numbers, since its really the perception of the driver that counts. But you still have to be able answer the question of "why" otherwise you're just backyard engineering and/or throwing money at the problem, and it doesn't take an engineer to do that. I know enough from my time in the "real world" to know that every aspect of a project needs to be quanitified in some way to justify spending the cost.

My point and root question: is it really possibly to get a learning experience out of the project give the time and resources? FSAE is potentially a big bite to chew, and I'm afraid its all to easy for my team, and many others to just build a car without actually knowing why. Sure, we can all agree the outcome (a race car) is cool, but what is the point if I haven't learned anything in the progess to that outcome?

Jon

[Charlie]

You have a good point, and I am afraid too many FSAE teamers are more concerned about doing something cool than learning. However if you pick your project wisely, and devote yourself to it, you can easily have a great and rewarding experience. The car is in the hands of many, but the individual parts can be owned by just you, for example, you can decide to do the braking system, cooling, chassis, manifolding, etc. Then you are in control, and can set your goals reasonably and easily finish with a product that satifys your goals of why and how.

The entire car can't be in control of one person, but I can tell you an attitude of good reasoning and 'near perfectionist' thinking can be contagious. It can also lead to unfinished cars if you aren't careful. Its a balancing act just like real life.

So- To answer your question, can a good car be built in 9 months, a car that you can be proud of, and a car that is a true engineering project and a learning experience? YES! of course! Look at UOW, design finals thier first year. Or UW, with an all new Monocoque design for 2004 that performed well.

The problem is this:

"Keep in mind, this is my senior year, grades count, and I'd like to have time to find a job, and hang with friends one night a week"

In order to do that you have to devote yourself to the project for those 9 months. Its a terribly time consuming thing and the fact that you seem to want to do it as a side project that doesn't compromise your lifestyle much tells me that its not for you. Just my opinion.

Every year we have 5-10 people who come through the shop and profess how much they want to be on the team, how much they love motorsports and cars and how much they want to learn. But they stop by every month or so-they have things to do like drinking, studying, jobs, etc. They have lots of excuses why they aren't around as much but it comes down to the fact they just don't have the drive our core members do. Everyone has the same amount of hours in the day, those who trade the bar, friends, sex, sleep, and school for the shop are the successful FSAE teams. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif And motorsport jobs are the same way.

Now I know you might need a job- I worked near full time for 3 years, with full time classes and FSAE, and its not fun. That's even tougher on you, but do-able if you want it badly enough!

[Jon]

Thanks for the input Charlie. I agree, there is no way I could do the project unless I expect to devote a significant portion of my time to it. But, I've seen a lot of my friends devote every free minute of their time to FSAE, only to be bogged down by other people who do not share their enthusiasm. This is my last year of college, and I can't afford for that to happen. I guess I need to decide whether it is worth doing arguably one of the coolest projects out there, or maybe relax a little bit and have atleast some time to enjoy my final year of school.

[gug]

here at adelaide uni we have the exact same format as you Jon. its probably too late for you to take this advice, but we started work on our car almost 2 years before the competition. first 6 months was just general research in our own time (reading Carrol Smith books, checking out different engines, reading these forums) and also brainstorming lots of ideas that we investigated. this was all done in our own time.

for the next semester, we managed to get a subject devoted to fsae. the subject is all about design, but normally you work in small groups to design a small part. by the end of this subject (ie 9 months after we started) we had a pretty good solid model. there really wasnt anything ready for manufacture yet, but we could check interferances and actually had some media for marketing.

next 3 months were spent marketing, trying to get some money. then the last 3 months (up to this point) have been about getting drawings knocked out and starting manufacture.

i personally think this was about as good a design process as we could have hoped for. we spent lots of time on research and design, allowing us to investigate all the interesting ideas we had back at the start.

last years team were exactly like you, they started 9 months before the australian competition. they managed to come 3rd out of the australian entries (15 australian entries), and 7th overall. however, they were very pressed for time. i think its quite lucky that they scored that well, since there were several teams there who were clearly better than them (monash, WA and RMIT come to mind).

if you are going to try fsae in 9 months, i dont believe you can do any of the more tricky things that some teams do. forget all composites (unless you can get them made by professionals or have previous experience), use a CBR or whatever engine your uni has used before, forget dry sump, etc. etc.

the way a team can do well in 9 months is to build the simplest car possible and get in as much testing time as possible.

of course, does this meet with your goals? you said you wanted to understand everything. well, you probably wont get as good an understanding as someone in cornell or any uni who runs fsae as a club. but i would still recommend fsae over any other senior project. i think you will learn alot more doing fsae than doing another senior project.

good luck!

[Jon]

Gug-

I think you hit the nail on the head. One of things I like about FSAE is it really gives students a chance to experience the real life issues of research, funding, and marketing. Unfortunately, atleast in its current state, our format, is really limited to 9 months, and no more.

I've done some research on my own (read the typical Smith books, dived into some deeper suspension books, and played around with some suspension geometry programs). I could care less about doing unique stuff like composite monocoques or turbocharged motors. I love to see designs like that, and certainly give props to schools that have the ability to do that stuff, but I know its beyond our means.

Again, I'd be totally happy with a simple design solong as my team and myself could totally understand what we did. That's what the competition is about I think.

[Denny Trimble]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon:
...
I feel like its just going end up being a lot of frustration and effort with little pay off. I don't want to be on a project, unless I can be 110% satisfied with my and my team's work.

....Keep in mind, this is my senior year, grades count, and I'd like to have time to find a job, and hang with friends one night a week. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think you should do it. Either it's something you're driven to do, or you can go learn how to work with the other unmotivated seniors on their solar-powered sterling engine fan project that accomplishes absolutely nothing and has 1/100th the complexity of an FSAE car.

If you set out to build the simplest car you can, you will still learn more than you can imagine.

Nobody is responsible for your satisfaction in your work but yourself. As for your teammates, it's up to you to lead them.

Go ahead, take on a simple senior project and fully understand it. Get good grades, spend lots of time with your friends.

But what's the challenge in that?

(sorry Angry Joe, I couldn't bring myself to pepper this post with obscenities. but I figure it's bitter and pessimistic enough as-is.)

[Kevin Hayward]

Jon,

I don't think the word simple should ever be used to describe the design of a FSAE vehicle. Also while the car is the goal of the project it is probably the least of the achievements. (Something you will not understand until you have been there I'm afraid)

As for this comment:

&gt; But, I've seen a lot of my friends devote every free minute of their time to FSAE, only to be bogged down by other people who do not share their enthusiasm.

That is the name of the game. I have seen my friends and workmates work themselves to the ground and then come back for more. Each one ends up with a different view of engineering after the project ... something a book can't give you.

...

Most of the people heavily involved in FSAE are sick individuals who seem to enjoy a lot of mental anguish. It can be incredibly fun but even if it wasn't it is probably one of the best things you can do to make you a better overall engineer in your final year.

Oh yeah ... if you think motorsports are cool then wait until you have spent two weeks filing ends of tubes for a spaceframe ... or months staring at a CAD image thinking "it just wont fit" ... or days trying to get the engine running properly (despite the fact that it is the same configuration that was on the dyno) ... or weeks filling out that stupid cost report ... Oh crap I think I'm talking myself out of it.

Point is its not cool, its not easy ... but its good.

Kev

[inamo]

hmmm I think it would be fair to say that FSAE is like all motorsport - it's a way of life. Either you can find it in you to let it take over to the point where you, eat, sleep, dream FSAE or you decide you want some kind of life and stay well away.

Yes it is possible to build a successful car in 9 months, but it it is unlikely that you personally will be able to fully understand absolutely everything on it. That's the value of working as part of a team!

It is also true that you learn a lot and possibly even more when that team doesn't work as well as you would hope. At the time it's the worst thing on earth to be let down by the people you were relying on - BUT a few months down the line you will have put that into your bank of experience and you'll have ideas on how to stop that happening again.

FSAE is great preparation for the real world, learning to budget, manage team members, manage your time (so you can manage to make it down to the bar for last orders after a late night session on the car...)accepting that compromises can and must be made... I could go on.

I think at the end of the day despite all the heartache, compromising my final degree result etc etc the things I learnt during my time in FSAE are invaluable and have been useful in so many ways at job interviews, my msc course and now working within a professional motorsport team. There is no substitute for experience!

Good luck, I'm sure either way you will make the right decision and there are plenty of people here who will help you out when you need it.

[RagingGrandpa]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon:
...But, I've seen a lot of my friends devote every free minute of their time to FSAE, only to be bogged down by other people who do not share their enthusiasm. This is my last year of college, and I can't afford for that to happen. I guess I need to decide whether it is worth doing arguably one of the coolest projects out there, or maybe relax a little bit and have atleast some time to enjoy my final year of school. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
FSAE is THE THING I can count on to make me 'enjoy school'. It seems to work out when the team is your circle of friends, who you work with, laugh with, and party with- at that point it's impossible to get 'bogged down' by others who don't get it. I guess, to me, FSAE provides nearly all of the things I'm looking for in the college experience, and if you really get into it, you'll get that feeling too. If I had a year to 'take it easy,' I don't know what I would do with my time during the days, honestly. Jump in!

[James Waltman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Jon:
I think its difficult to come up with a fully researched, and engineered car given the 9 mo time frame and man power <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The top teams have worked out systems to facilitate this but it is no small task. You can certainly build a car in nine months but it is unrealistic to expect to understand everything. You can become very familiar with a particular aspect of the car but you will only realize how much more there is to learn. It is especially clear when the design judges start asking tough questions. The point is to learn – you will.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Jon:
I don't want to be on a project, unless I can be 110% satisfied with my and my team's work <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I doubt that there has ever been a FSAE team that was 110% satisfied with their car. I bet that there has never been a Ferrari team that has been even 100% satisfied with their car or known everything about it that there is to know. If they were fully satisfied and knew everything the cars would never get faster.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Denny:
I don't think you should do it. Either it's something you're driven to do, or you can go learn how to work with the other unmotivated seniors on their solar-powered sterling engine fan project that accomplishes absolutely nothing and has 1/100th the complexity of an FSAE car. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well put Denny. But 1/100th is being too nice. Some of the other majors in our department have to do senior projects. What a joke.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Jon:
Keep in mind, this is my senior year, grades count, and I'd like to have time to find a job, and hang with friends one night a week <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, that will be tough. There is usually room on our teams for people who only contribute a few hours a week. They do not get to do cool projects. They do not get to have input on the car. They don't get to learn very much. We usually give these people very simple tasks that don't take any skill or commitment. That makes it difficult for them to move up to better things.

Each year we have people who put in at least 80 hours a week. During crunch time it is not uncommon to put in way more than this. We had one student set up a bunk in the shop so he didn't have to waste time going home to sleep. There are also team members with jobs who will put in more than 20 hours a week. The guys that can put in 5 hours a week are very helpful but they are missing out on a big part of the experience.
You get out of this what you put in – so don't kid yourself.
Join and have fun. Put in the time that you can. Be upfront with the team about how much time and effort you can contribute.

[Alan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon:

I feel like its just going end up being a lot of frustration and effort with little pay off. I don't want to be on a project, unless I can be 110% satisfied with my and my team's work. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think its a lot of frustration and effort for every team but the payoff is up to the individual. The more you put into it, the more you'll get out of it. My last two years on the team I put in on average 60-80 hours a week year round and 120+ at various times. Looking back it wasn't fun but it was fulfilling and those of us who put in the time are better engineers for it. Even though we never got the results we wanted, I would do it all over again in a heartbeat.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Do you guys feel that FSAE really does make a difference in getting a job in the auto industry? Is it truly a "preq"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think it will necessarily get you a job but it will make you better at whatever job you do get and that could open doors down the line. After FSAE I got hired as a second mechanic on a Toyota Atlantic team. At our first test I was asking the engineer a bunch of chassis related questions (the area of FSAE I concentrated on) and the crew chief overheard our conversations and later told me that I would be a good DAG someday. Well it turns out that our DAG was leaving for another team and they needed a DAG ASAP. So based on what the crew chief said and my FSAE background, I was the DAG/Shock guy the next day. So FSAE didn't necessarily get me the job, but it helped me move up extremely quick.

So if you are interest in the automotive/motorsports area is of a technical nature, I would join your school's team. Even if you only learn the basics of whatever area you are working on, its worth the experience. If your fasicnation with cars is of a less technical nature, then I wouldn't bother.

[Charlie]

That's interesting that you say looking back it was not fun Alan. I feel the opposite. When I was working my ass off I was wondering what I got myself into. Now that I'm more or less 'done' with FSAE, I realize how much fun it was! Ican't beleive I'm not working on a new design. I'm in FSAE withdrawl. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[inamo]

Yep - I have the rose tinted spectacles on now too http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I went through hell and back in my final year with my SAE team as team manager - but now - I only really remember the good things.

This winter was incredibly hard for me too - I'm now at Cranfield Uni doing an Msc and didn't have a car to play with over the winter. Life's much better again now - I'm working with an ASCAR team for my thesis and having a whale of a time - need 48hr days though - way too much to try and fit in!

[Test Driver]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jon:
Keep in mind, this is my senior year, grades count, and I'd like to have time to find a job, and hang with friends one night a week. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is from my personal experience. Grades do/often suffer, job hunting is for after your final competition and if you're lucky, you'll hang with friends seven nights a week.

As far as being on your resume, FSAE is not automatic. In fact, if I were interviewing people, I'd know that at least 50% of the interviewees with FSAE on their resumes could be of the slacker types I would not want to work with again. In fact, I'd rather have a theoretical/intellectual type that can't tell a Johnson rod from a muffler bearing http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif than some of those types.

Good luck.

[Brent Howard]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> In fact, if I were interviewing people, I'd know that at least 50% of the interviewees with FSAE on their resumes could be of the slacker types I would not want to work with again. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is so true Ramon. I think this year our team was actually able to screw one of these types over as he was stupid enough to list the current team leader as a referance (The team leader had very little idea who this person was) I personally cannot wait to interview one of these types and grill them. I agree that I would much rather work with someone who hasn't done anything like FSAE than deal with the type who always say they are committed, but only show up once every 2-3 months.

Brent

[Charlie]

Like I said, FSAE on a resume doesn't mean much, I'm sure there are lots of people who THINK they were on our team last year, just didn't go to competition. Any interviewer will judge your FSAE experience by what you can say you accomplished and how much you can talk about what you've done. 'I helped out a bunch' doesn't hold much weight in an interview.

[John Bucknell]

As someone who did FSAE for six years (nine years ago), I can't imagine I would be where I am today without that background. It got me a job in the auto industry, it made me lots of friends that I still have today - and most of all, everybody I know has a race car of some nature and wants me to work on it.

If I had to describe an undergraduate engineering education - it would be that it's the Reader's Digest Introduction to Engineering. Without the huge impractical application of engineering principles that is FSAE, you wouldn't get past the intro until you were in the field for five or six years. You're a leg up on everybody if you commit yourself to it.

[Jon]

I'll (hopefully) be seeing all you guys in Detroit next year.

After a lot of pondering, I think FSAE is really the only project that simulates what an industry project is like. I don't necessarily like all aspects of how our FSAE team is run and has performed. But that's the deck of cards I'm dealt, and rather than just being frustrated, I might as well atleast try to make a difference.

[Angry Joe]

FSAE Drove me well past the brink of insanity. Several times. If I had the chance to do it all again... I would http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[James Waltman]

John Bucknell,
I have been meaning to thank you for all of your support in Detroit this year. Its nice to have you hanging out on the forum.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by John Bucknell:
most of all, everybody I know has a race car of some nature and wants me to work on it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Even some with crazy engine ideas. You should start a new discussion and show the project you are working on with Eric. I'm sure that many here would be interested. I could try to round up some pictures.

[John Bucknell]

I suppose that would go in the Off Topic area. I have the whole thesis still lying around somewhere.

I'm actually not sure whose crazy idea it was. I wanted to race it, he just wanted to build it.

I'll sleep on on it.