Testing Techniques

[Mark]

I was wondering that once teams get that notorious "First Drive"� out of the way, where do you go from there. There are some 275 FSAE teams out there and I'm sure there are at least 250 different techniques for testing your creation.
"¢How do you go about testing your cars (detailed test plans or just drive it hard)?
"¢How often (everyday or just on weekends)?
"¢Does your University provide large lots for you or are you on your own to find a "track"�?
"¢What preparation do you go through before/after you go out and drive, like a detailed checklist?
"¢Do you take older cars out for driver training or just focus on the new car?

Last year, we drove 3 nights a week. All in all we logged about 70 hours of actual testing (car in motion) and the year before that it was like 80-90 hours. For the most part the testing is done at local business' parking lots (K-Mart, Lowes, etc.) Before we drive we go through a very detailed checklist in attempt to prevent stupid failures. We usually take old cars out for driver training on Saturdays.

Again, I'm just curious how other teams prepare their car for a FSAE competition.

[Mark]

I was wondering that once teams get that notorious "First Drive"� out of the way, where do you go from there. There are some 275 FSAE teams out there and I'm sure there are at least 250 different techniques for testing your creation.
"¢How do you go about testing your cars (detailed test plans or just drive it hard)?
"¢How often (everyday or just on weekends)?
"¢Does your University provide large lots for you or are you on your own to find a "track"�?
"¢What preparation do you go through before/after you go out and drive, like a detailed checklist?
"¢Do you take older cars out for driver training or just focus on the new car?

Last year, we drove 3 nights a week. All in all we logged about 70 hours of actual testing (car in motion) and the year before that it was like 80-90 hours. For the most part the testing is done at local business' parking lots (K-Mart, Lowes, etc.) Before we drive we go through a very detailed checklist in attempt to prevent stupid failures. We usually take old cars out for driver training on Saturdays.

Again, I'm just curious how other teams prepare their car for a FSAE competition.

[raska]

Ahh testing. Seems like it doesn't happen at all sometimes, but looking back on it, it could have been a lot worse.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Usually it comes down to just driving it hard and getting the driver to feel the cars throug a very simple course. We have gone with plans, like to gather differential, or underbody data, but always something else has held those up, whether it be problems with those particular things, or other. We have been slightly lacking in a very detailed and repeatable setup for the car in all aspects compared to what we would like to have.

<LI>Not enough... Everyday for a few days before the competition, but it would nice to be more. As it stands now, we don't actually have a car that would start up and drive, since previous cars mostly sit in pieces, and the 2005 has a few issues with the rear end that are a result of summer autocrossing, in which we 'tried' to to go every weekend, but the turnout for summer endevours is always lacking.

<LI>We used to have huge lots. Actually did until a couple months ago still have some signifigant space left, but now all parking on campus bigger than a small little building lot is 9 level parking garages. We have been lucky to be on the good side of a local small airport that has a couple of unused section of runway. It also has made the silverdome parking lot seem like it was paved out of velvet, where some people I've heard term it as rough

<LI>Very detailed checklist. Check all fasteners, connections, etc. We have a pretty good flagman system covering all sides of the testing area as well for the event of oter problems.

<LI>In the past few years we haven't had more than 1 running car at a time, that will change this year though we should be testing with both the 05 and 06 car.
[/list]

[Faterooski]

Mark, I just feel sorry for ya on here all by your lonesome with only one reply. Right before Detroit we tried to drive at least twice a week if we weren't fixing broken parts. Like you all did, we'd go over the car and make sure all fasteners were tight, check toe,camber, ride height, all fluids, all that good stuff. Usually we had to diagnose and fix some off-the-wall, freak engine electrical problem. They were an every-drive occurance. Actual testing usually consisted of our team leader/designer/everything driving a few laps, suggesting some changes, make the changes, run some more laps. We had 4 or 5 timers around our parking lot track taking times and replacing cones. I never saw any of the times or data (I was always busy carrying batteries, pushing/carrying the car, pouring gas, etc.), but I guess with several timers around the track you can see on what parts of the track you are gaining/losing.
Just wondering, how big of a track can everyone make out of their parking lots? Ours were usually between 20-30 seconds, depending on if we put in a skidpad portion. Otherwise its just a straight, a slalom, and a couple of 50 ft radius 180's. Mark, I think I've heard you say in K-mart's lot or somewhere you had a 1:00 track? I also thought I heard you say something about liking boys, but I could be wrong. Get back to work.

[magicweed]

Well, last year we started the car up, gave 4 guys a chance to drive it around the rain soaked parking lot, and then threw it in the truck to go to competition. Hopefully I can answer you question better at this years comp.

[John_Burford]

WHAT A GREAT QUESTION!

I notice that the usual suspects on this list are being rather silent. Oh ya, those who know what they are talking about usually don't talk.

Mark, I'd suggest you focus a lot of effort on finding an answer to your question. Think about what characteristics are adjustable on the car and what maneuvers would isolate them.

John Burford

[McFly]

Mark,

Here at the UW-Madison we try to get our car drivable in the first week or two of March so when that snow melts we can be ready to get out and drive.

-Detailed Test plans, last year we started to do this with anybody that wanted to do any testing had to get a list of tests they wanted to run to our suspension senior member and he would go that week and make up a detailed plan of testing formats for a day or two of testing. On the day of testing we would have multiple beacons set-up to get split times and would be recording data every second the car was running. (permitting the data aq was working properly that day.) Last year we got over 350 miles of logged data and probably at least another 100 to 150 miles of unlogged driving. This year I am implementing a testing procedure that anybody that needs testing done would fill out and it would spell out everything that needed to be done for that test. It would map out everything from courses needed, driver training, to data that needed to be collected. Then this is all kept electronically and there are links to data sheets and other important material for the test. On the days of testing we will either be running some sort of test, whether it be engine management, airflow measurements, brake and suspension analysis, to just about any other thing that we can think of to validate our designs or improve the handling of our car. We just got 4 new linear pods, so that just opened up a whole new can of worms of testing for me.

-Preperation, we will the night before go over in detail a check list of everything on the car, along with working sensors, engine cal and management, and also do a suspension set-up before the weekend of testing.

-Driving, in the spring we try to drive as often as open lots permit. We usually drive thursday or friday, sat and sun, all permitting we have open lots. We are restricted because the lot that the university lets us drive in, is the lot right next to the softball diamonds and outdoor track. So we are not allowed to drive when they have events. On thursday or friday we have been lucky to drive in the Miller Park lot of the Milwaukee Brewers. At the lot with the university we are only able to set up about a 30 sec course. The lot in Milwaukee we can set up a full endurance size course, being 60+ seconds. In the fall we will try to drive every weekend, whether we are doing testing or just letting the younger members drive around.

-Cars,we are usually not able to keep two cars running because last car always gets take apart for the parts because somebody always slacks and we want to drive. So we will do some rigging to get old parts to fit. I will change this year and we will have to cars running for driver training.

I think I've rambled enough....

[Erich Ohlde]

After a summer's worth of flogging and fingdin out how much the car really has all I really have to add is:
- Good engine fuel map. (definately worth the time)
- Good wiring connections. (doesn't matter if its pretty, just make sure the connections are rock solid
- Drop the strings to check alignment.
- Flog the car. and drive it HARD! this is the only way to find out what is going to put you out of endurance. Make suspension changes ONLY after the driver/tires/car has warmed up and if the driver is complaining about a handling problem ONLY make changes that don't require a lot of time or sacrifice driving time. A car can go fast if the driver is comfortable even though it has a crappy setup. An amazing setup with a crappy driver is slow.

I admit that there are exceptions but the most important thing for the team is to drive the car.

My $0.02

[John Valerio]

i agree with erich.
the most important thing is seat time, not only to find out what's gonna bust, but to get your drivers comfortable and fast in the car.
throughout competition i've always said (and my team got pretty tired of hearing it too) that the drivers are the limiting factor for most teams in terms of dynamic events.
due to the nature of our competition, with most of staying around for more or less four years, no one can really become a great driver (even though we all think we are). i think you'll end up going alot faster if you don't worry about shaving off that extra pound or two (off the car that is) and just get that much more seat time.
so yeah, none of us really drive up to the limits of our cars but i must say, some (RMIT, UofT, UTA, Cornell, UWMadison, and to name a few) come alot closer than most.

[Mike Cook]

Some random thoughts on this...

Find out who your drivers are going to be early on. Also figure out what events there going to drive and make sure they pratice pratice pratice those events. Last summer, a scca national champ hopped in our car and ran 4 seconds faster than me. Since then I have gotton faster but it comes to show that driving is everything. There are not many changes to the car you can do that are going to net you 4 seconds, that is for sure.

Second, make sure you don't get overwhelmed with testing. Make sure you only do tests that are really going to net worthwhile data and finally make sure you have a detailed schedule for the spring. I know last year we spent way to much time testing some things and ran out of time to test more important things. However like others have mentioned, It is most important to get your drivers driving on course. Figure out how your drivers can get driving experience and you can run tests at the same time if possible.

Third, have all your daq stuff squared away. And make sure your wiring is neat.

Get out to local autocrosses. I know that at last years comp, we had a mildly quick car but when it came time to drive it we all kinda choked. Driving at autocrosses really helps get you used to the kind of atmosphere your going to be in at Detroit.

Making changes to the car in the midle of the night with 40 degree weather might not be that useful (I guess it depends on how cold detroit is going to be).

Finally, drive drive drive.

[Dan G]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by John Valerio:
don't worry about shaving off that extra pound or two (off the car that is) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How many drivers go on diets before competition? I've started a lazy one, but will be adding some workouts to it Jan 1st to improve my endurace and arm strength. These cars take a lot out of you! And yes, I'm definitely the part of the car that is the easiest to shave 10-15-20 lbs off of before May.

[RacingManiac]

We certainly did a lot of miles last season, as with many we usually go out with an objective for the day(week), and that was determined before we actually start testing. It could be focus on some engine mapping adjustment(lots of it, as it turned out), particular setup parameter comparison, and just plain driver training for specific event. And we probably do this almost every day in the month and a half leadup to the competition, assuming nothing broke and we need to fix it. We can usually get in at least 6 hours a day when we do go out. Not all day are productive though as sometimes certain area of the car needs attention then we focus on that and maybe neglect other area of testing. All in all though we probably got most of what we need done....

It certainly wasn't that enjoyable at the end of the testing season....lol

[Mike Cook]

Dan, I think more importantly than loosing the weight is being able to concentrate for 11 strait laps. It doesn't sound like long, but if the first time you drive that long is at compeition, it will really suprise you how long it is. Being in good shape is important because it will help you concentrate.

[Erich Ohlde]

Something to add. Spend the money to get decent two way externally adjustable shocks. And make sure the external adjustments work. I've gotten more time out of our '05 car just by making a 4-8% adjustment in compression or rebound than by tuning springs or ARBs. That and its always nice to throw ur drivers a good ol' placebo. just pretend that u are changing the shocks and send them back out to see if they notice a difference. Its a good way to tell how consistent a driver is.

[Mark]

Well I'm glad to see that people are starting to reply to this thread. I believe that UMR has a very good testing technique. This thread wasn't really one for advice, but mainly just curiosity. I was just wondering how teams spend their time and how many hours they are able to log on their cars. You always see teams that are rushing, at competition, to get their car built and I wonder how many teams were able to test for 3-5 months.
The past couple of years we have been able to set and meet deadlines and get the car built in a reasonable amount of time, allowing for a solid 4 months of testing. Just curious how much time the other 274 teams try and test with.

[Mike Cook]

Our goal was to have a rolling chassis by dec 31. That isn't going to happen, but since we have off all through january, the rolling chassis will be done by jan 31 and the car should be moving on it's own by feb 15th. It kind of sucks to get it finished so early, only to be 30 degrees outside though...

[jdstuff]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mike Cook:
It kind of sucks to get it finished so early, only to be 30 degrees outside though... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will second that. Our goal is to have the car moving under its own power by feb as well. So about that weather....spring break FSAE invitational anyone??

[Mike Cook]

How about we all crash UTA's place around spring break. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif How about it Dr. Woods?? a spring break fsae inviational??

[John_Burford]

Congrulations to all the teams that get their cars driving so early and get lots of drive time.

But, I'd like to re-frame Mark's original question a little. I'm curious about how much testing does it require to tune the suspension of a FSAE car to get a balanced handling car? From the first drive day to having the HANDLING competetion ready (omitting the engine management system tuning and any structural failures). Give me your best guesses.

John Burford

[Mike Cook]

I imagine that you could tune one of these cars in 2-3 weeks if you worked every day and had good weathe and no failures. This assumes you have the right daq, you know how to use it, etc. This would let you get you arb's set, steering geometry finialized (ackerman and static toe), dampers dialed in relatively closely. My guess is out the window for aero cars.

However, this neglects the fact that a lot of testing is done to validate a given design, (stiffness requirements or whatever) and doesn't necessarily make the car faster but will significantly help you at the design event.

[mtg]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by John_Burford:
But, I'd like to re-frame Mark's original question a little. I'm curious about how much testing does it require to tune the suspension of a FSAE car to get a balanced handling car? From the first drive day to having the HANDLING competetion ready (omitting the engine management system tuning and any structural failures). Give me your best guesses.

John Burford </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That depends hugely on the engineering level of the people involved. I could accomplish in a couple days now what took several months when I was the Chief Engineer at UMR in 2004.

By the way, as a historical note for the rest of the folks, John went to UMR in the early 90's, then defected to UTA. Traitor. Treason is a capital offense. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[John_Burford]

Dam, I'm busted.

Dr. Woods loves that story. When ever Dr. Woods introduces me to anyone at competition he mentions that story.

By the way, you guys have done a great job in recent years.

John Burford
a.k.a Evil evil little man http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Nick McNaughton]

Good topic. I think if a few of the more experienced teams shared their experience with testing, many teams would benefit. For us, one of the biggest improvements we've made year to year is how we test - and by simply using the device we spend a year designing we come up with more practical ideas and improvements than you'll find while sitting in front of a computer.

Here's UWAM's take on this:

"¢How do you go about testing your cars (detailed test plans or just drive it hard)?
Varies between detailed test plans and loose test plans, but it's always planned. Detailed test plans include schedules and work lists, and some sort of decision tree/flowchart/similar for figuring out the most efficient path. Loose test plans only involve outcomes for the track session, such as 'teach driver A how to brake and turn, let driver B practise slaloms and give driver C skidpan practise'

"¢How often (everyday or just on weekends)?
Depends how long it is until the comp. If it's a new car, it isn't broken, is prepared to run and the comp doesn't start in 12 hours, we'll be working three shifts either testing or trying to.
Things like setup experiments, driver training and system/component/crazy idea testing happen sporadically, on average three times a month. Less in the months after comps, more in the months just before comps.

"¢Does your University provide large lots for you or are you on your own to find a "track"�?
No. On our own, and it's an ongoing battle.

"¢What preparation do you go through before/after you go out and drive, like a detailed checklist?
Someone signs the car out, and is responsible for seeing that the necessary preparation happens. Checklists are good, but only as good as the time you invest in them. I'd advise turning them into a maintenance manual for the car, as they have to be used by people who know their way around a spanner but don't know the specifics of FSAE cars, motorbike engines or any particular car.

"¢Do you take older cars out for driver training or just focus on the new car?
Our old cars cop a hiding. Not as much as we'd like, but we're working on that one. Finding enough round black rubber things is our problem.
We use them to test ideas, setups and new systems, as well as a heap of driver training.

Other thoughts on testing:
Document everything. There's something to be learned each and every time the car runs. Buy/borrow an IR temp gun and a thermocouple tyre probe and start writing down temps of everything that gets warm, after every run. Then write down stuff that makes the numbers useful, like starting temps, how long the car ran, ambient temps, etc. Then fund raise until you can afford some kind of data acquisition gear, and go from there. Record lap times, sector times and cones, and do everything you can to make the drivers take it seriously. Every time you test, you should learn something. Everything you learn will improve your next design, change how you test, give you direction for future work and be an asset when you're next grilled by a design judge.

Any ideas/questions/comments?

[Nick McNaughton]

So that's it? Nobody else does any testing?