GSXR electric water pump

[Aly]

Hi
We've decided to use and electric water pump for our GSXR600 suzuki engine .

Any suggestions for best type and capacity ?

[Rex Chan]

You decided on using an electric pump, without knowing what's out there? Or do you already have one in mind, but don't want to share/write long questions?

The most commonly used are Davies, Craig pumps: we use the EWP115, some teams run EWP80. Monash uses their booster pump, I think.

However, the stock mechanical pump has the ability to flow more (esp. at our operating RPMs), and does not put load on your electrical system (alternator).

We find we can run the EWP115 (10A) all day, and battery volts are fine. Running the fan (10A) causes batt volts to drop, so we can only use it up to 50% duty cycle. Thus, we are hoping to move to a mechanical pump, which would allow us to run the fan more.

[Aly]

Hi Rex Chan and thanks for your reply.

Of coarse we know what we're doing.
The point is I didn't want the discussion to deviate from the point I want to know if I explained the whole thing .
But since you've asked I have to make it clear http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

We decided to change our GSXR600 engine from wet sump to dry sump system . Meaning we would need an additional pump for oil pumping .
We made allot of calculations and every thing is ok concerning this insha allah .

We will take the shaft that was supposed to run the mechanical water pump and use it to drive the dry sump pump .
And we will use an electric water pump instead of the old mechanical one .

I guess you got a clear picture now http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[PatClarke]

Aly,

There have been 38 previous posts on this very subject on the FSAE.com forum. Have you read them?

They can be found by simply using the 'Find' button at the top of this page.

Pat

[Aly]

yes pat I've read allot

all what i can't find is the flow rate of the pump of GSXR600

and any suggestions for most suitable electric pump and best method of connection on the GSXR600's system would be highly appreciated

[Adambomb]

I made a recommendation on the radiator thread that got stickied (probably stickied on accident? Wasn't that great a thread) on a simple method using 3rd world technology that would work for any engine. Even a GSXR600!

As for the hookups, hook the inlet to the inlet and the outlet to the outlet, then hook up the power wires.

[Fantomas]

Aly,
if I were you I would not spend my time with this.

Get a car together that easily makes it through scrutineering, competes in all dynamic events by getting more than the "participant points" and finishes endurance.
If you have achieved all this I would start thinking about a dry sump and electric water pumps.

Fantomas

[Aly]

Fantomas

we wont make it through endurance without a dry sump configuration .

I'll give you some time to figure out why http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.It's not that hard.
Hint: we are using a sports motorcycle engine

[nowhere fast]

Aly, I'll give you a hint: baffles.

[Aly]

Nathan

i guess some team members researched this
thoroughly and found it wont be good enough .

http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[nowhere fast]

We used a baffled wet sump without issue for 10 years. Admittedly the fsae-a tracks are very slalomy with few areas where the car undergoes sustained lateral acceleration, this may be different at other competitions.

We also overfilled the sump by a given amount to help prevent oil starvation (the crank sits fairly high in the r6 engines we used).

[Adambomb]

Our team has been around for almost 17 years. We have good access to multiple CNCs, knowledgeable people who are willing to work with us, not too shabby of funding, and a whole lot of mechanical and racing experience on the team. We never considered a dry sump because we never had the time to pursue it, and knew enough that there was a good chance that even with it meticulously planned out and engineered, it would still not be reliable enough. In other words, the gain didn't offset the risk, and we never had the resources to mess with it.

Instead, for the last 3 or so years we ran a 4 cyl we just ran a baffled pan and overfilled it. It probably soaked up a bunch of power being overfilled, and it tends to burn oil on hard right hand turns, but it works. And those last 3 or so years, with a baffled pan that was overfilled, we got 18th, 7th, and 18th again in Michigan. Another option I've seen on FSAE cars is an accusump. I've never messed with them, but they're more or less a bolt-on and seem like they would work decently.

[Fantomas]

Fantomas

we wont make it through endurance without a dry sump configuration .

I'll give you some time to figure out why .It's not that hard.
Hint: we are using a sports motorcycle engine

Seems like you got beaten up enough for this answer by the other posters in this thread.

However, I will add my two cents:

Have you checked before your post how many teams are really using dry sumps?
Hint: Not many. Seems like there are ways to get through Endurance without.

How many km will you drive with your engine compared to the normal life of the engine?
Hint: Not many.

We made it through lots of testing and two competitions in a season with absolutely no oil pressure in left turns. We had no real wet sump left at all. The bearings looked horrible and we may have lost some power due to this over time, but it worked and probably the more important fact: We fixed this issue with one little piece of metal sheet at the right place.
At least the four cylinders tolerate quite a bit of abuse before blowing off.

Hint: Think before posting.

Fantomas

[PatClarke]

Quote Ali

"I guess some team members researched this thoroughly and found it wont be good enough".

I think this highlights the necessity for a team to attend at least one major event as observers before entering one!

Ali, there are far more competitors running in FS/FSAE without dry sumps than those with dry sumps. Many have actually even won events!

For simplicity sake, research 'Accusump' as mentioned earlier. These are a simple device your team can actually make with much less cost and complexity than a dry sump and all that it entails.

Cheers

Pat

[Jon Burford]

Aly.
We never ran a gsxr but we did run cbr6 with almost no sump remaining at all. The motor has done 2 competitions, and Loads of testing with no oil problems to note at all.
Just to enforce it, that engine powered the 2009 team to an edurance win at FSUk 2009.

[Rex Chan]

hello all!

I come from a team that has run a dry sump from the time I've been involved (we started running CBR600RRs in 2005, with dry sumps, and I got involved in 2009). So that's all I've known, and we have no experience with wet sumps.

The replies advocating wet sumps have me interested, because the attraction of a wet sump system (coming from dry sumps) is the simplicity.

Adambomb: with your wet sump design, do you get consistent supply to your oil pump, and hence good oil pressure vs RPM plots? Like this: MUR 2011: Oil Pressure vs RPM (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150376678693036&set=a.10150358234268036.355263.559588035&type=3) I don't mind that the engine burns oil, as the oil consumed should be noticed by people inspecting the oil level/changing the oil.

Fantomas: while I agree that our engines see less km use, they do get driven harder than the average sportsbike, I hope. Anyway: I do not agree with the sentiment that a working engine (even with low oil pressure, leading to damaged bearings) is acceptable. We consider engines to be a long term investment, so keeping them healthy is my number one priority, as an engine person. And since we are supposed to be engineering a car to sell, I think long term reliability is very important. It's good that you were able to fix your wet sump: my feeling is that wet sumps require more (potentially damaging) testing than dry sumps.

Question for the wet sump teams: how low (below the crankcase/block sump line) can you make a wet sump? Our current dry sump is 40mm high (not better than some wet sumps), but we are working on a "flat sump", around 16mm high ( MUR 2011: Hashan Caldera's UWA style dry sump (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150550192239627&set=a.10150550186989627.397398.605609626&type=3)). Does anyone just run a flat piece of plate across the bottom of the block, and fill up the crank with oil?

[Aly]

"""Fantomas beating makes me stronger http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif""".

Guys we have a GSXR engine which is a sports motorcycle engine . At normal operation of the motorcycle ... when driver comes to turn right or left he just leans (no steering) ....

the sump is designed in a way to overcome this motion

as the responsible guy on our team reported
on our case when the car comes to steer, oil piles up in a way that will cause the engine to overheat during endurance .
The idea of baffles was proposed earlier and he claimed that he did his research and found it wont be much effective and good as the dry sump plan.

yet we'll discuss the issue again http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Fantomas]

as the responsible guy on our team reported
on our case when the car comes to steer, oil piles up in a way that will cause the engine to overheat during endurance .
The idea of baffles was proposed earlier and he claimed that he did his research and found it wont be much effective and good as the dry sump plan.

What kind of research did he exactly do?

Given that your first entry in 2010 did not make it to drive at the competition, I honestly would not add complexity to the car right now. You will get lost in the complexity. Especially when considering that we are already in the middle of February.

A mediocre wet sump which only lacks oil pressure from time to time is better than a bad dry sump which lacks oil pressure all the time. Believe me, we have done both (starting with normal wet sump, 40mm, switching to an extreme wet sump, 25mm, and then converting to a dry sump, 12mm), it is not a trivial task:
http://www.formulastudent.de/typo3temp/pics/15b7d87eae.jpg

Fantomas

[Aly]

Guys thanks for the precious information

It really helped ALLOT

regards and again thanks very very much for all

[PatClarke]

Aly,

1. Standard wet sump
2. Accusump or similar
3. Get on with the build!
4. Develop dry sump in parallel for future car

Pat

[Adambomb]

Originally posted by Rex Chan:

Adambomb: with your wet sump design, do you get consistent supply to your oil pump, and hence good oil pressure vs RPM plots? Like this: MUR 2011: Oil Pressure vs RPM (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150376678693036&set=a.10150358234268036.355263.559588035&type=3) I don't mind that the engine burns oil, as the oil consumed should be noticed by people inspecting the oil level/changing the oil.

...

Question for the wet sump teams: how low (below the crankcase/block sump line) can you make a wet sump? Our current dry sump is 40mm high (not better than some wet sumps), but we are working on a "flat sump", around 16mm high ( MUR 2011: Hashan Caldera's UWA style dry sump (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150550192239627&set=a.10150550186989627.397398.605609626&type=3)). Does anyone just run a flat piece of plate across the bottom of the block, and fill up the crank with oil?

We had consistent oiling, same pressure vs. rpm as stock at a "flat" incline as well as 60 deg tilted "left" and "right" (to simulate hard cornering). However the oil light would flicker due to transients on the track. We just put in more oil until it stopped doing that. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif BTW, that engine stayed in the car for close to 90 hours before the clutch was catastrophically fragged. Still ran fine but we swapped it out for our spare engine so we didn't have to hassle cracking the case open, and the car is so old we'd rather not put money into it. The oil burning wasn't really a problem either with regards to plug fouling, I think I remember changing plugs in that car like once or twice, ever.

Our wet sump had baffles in it, thinking it was in the ballpark of 40 mm.


as the responsible guy on our team reported
on our case when the car comes to steer, oil piles up in a way that will cause the engine to overheat during endurance .
The idea of baffles was proposed earlier and he claimed that he did his research and found it wont be much effective and good as the dry sump plan.

yet we'll discuss the issue again Smile


Yes, should discuss the issue again! Sounds like his research wasn't very good. My many years of experience have taught me that there are several tiers of "dry-sumpness:"

1. "Good teams" that actually run dry sumps (very small group)
2. "Good teams" who have attempted dry sumps, but gave up because it was too much work, cost them endurance, etc. (also small group)
3. "Good teams" that are resource-limited to the point that they know they can't realistically pull it off with good odds of success, and find other ways around it (largest group by far)
4. Newbie teams that know better than to mess with it
5. Newbie teams that don't know better than to mess with it.

Groups 1 and 2 may occasionally show off some bling with pics. Group 5 does most of the talking on the forums. Group 3 is the majority. If you want to add "bling" to your car, you can read a lot on the internet and it would appear that due to all the talk, dry sumps are the way to go. But like Pat Clarke said, if you actually go to a competition you will find they are pretty rare.

[Jon Burford]

Originally posted by PatClarke:
Aly,

1. Standard wet sump
2. Accusump or similar
3. Get on with the build!
4. Develop dry sump in parallel for future car

Pat


Sounds Smart

[Aly]

Guys I really want to thank you from the bottom of my heart .

Honestly your replies just got us on the track again.

Adambomb : It might sound strange but your 1,2,3,4,5 classification made me think in a different way .
"I apologize for any inconvenience"
Really those forums are extra useful ...

regards

[Rex Chan]

Adambomb: quite a few Australian teams run dry sump (of the teams running 4 cylinders, in 2011); UWA, ECU, UQ, UTS. Not sure about Adeliade, Wollongong. I know Monash 2010, Swinburne 2010 and Wollongong 2010 ran wet sumps.

Since that means we're a "good team", I'll post up some bling photos. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I took these photos because we had the car up on it's side (rare) to fix bent harness tabs. Anyway, most parts are tagged, so you should be able to figure out what does what. More photos on request (easier to take photos = more likely I'll get them for you)

MUR Motorsports/Melbourne Uni 2011 Dry Sump (bottom of car plan view) (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150592164043036&set=a.10150592163468036.388981.559588035&type=3)

[Hannes]

Hey.

I don't care weather you're running wet or dry or a whatever sump lubrication but I see some good reasons for running an electrical water pump. Or better two small ones in parallel both electric and hydraulic.

I would recommend water pumps used normaly for spraying water at car's front screen while wiping.

These take very small current (3A) and are sufficent. Plus, they're widely avaiable.
Other possibility would be to take one out of a car heating system, many cars have electric pumps for the interiour heating system.

Reasons I see for electric pumps:
-always full power -> car can be cooled during driver change or with less break
-can be active controlled -> no need for an thermostat/car heats up faster
-more flexibel packaging
-two pumps can be used in parallel, redundant system possible
-no power drawn directly from the engine, power management possible.

Of course a mechanic pump is also a very valid solution.

Hope that helps a bit.
Hannes.

[Aly]

thanks Hanns

you know the real problem is that you can't get pump curves for any of those little commercial pumps weather used in cars or in any other thing ...

I've been studying an intense fluid machinery course at faculty and now I can't tell which pump is good since I don't have any information (basically all what i need is the pump characteristic curve)

[Hannes]

I see your point.

These pumps are quite cheap, so maybe just get a used one out of broken car and test it.

Testing should be easy, take 1l af water and measure the time it takes to pump that.
Try that with 6v, 8v, 10v and 12v. I guess it's linear http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

To give you an idea of the needed size: We had two pumps that consumed 3A of current in total and it was sufficent for a 600 Gsxr.
Given that the flow is somehow related to the current, look for a fuel pump that takes between 2 and 4A...

And don't forget to test with hot (100° C) water...

Have you considered a electric oil pump http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Rex Chan]

Hello all!

We just got our flat (16mm) sump running on the 2011 car (static, in the workshop). Warmed it up and revved it up to 13000RPM. Everything went well for a first run. Next will be more static runs, and then on track.

MUR 2012: Flat dry sump static run - RPM vs Oil Pressure (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150677997963036&set=a.10150481926443036.373793.559588035&type=1&ref=nf)

[Aly]

Rex

oh please not after we changed our mind http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

so you're saying that this might have gone right for us .....

any way I'm very interested in knowing about your tests results and weather every thing would go great or there will be any "side effects"

regards

[Rex Chan]

Aly: I'm not sure I understand what you mean? There's no right or wrong designs: it's a choice. How can something I do affect your design??

Anyway, here's some more photos from today, while SeanA is removing the leaking sump to inspect/reseal it: MUR 2012: Flat Sump Adventures (http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10150679898173036.402574.559588035&type=1)

Edit: After reading through the thread again, I kind of see what you mean. We (Melbourne) have been a dry sump team since we started using CBR600RRs in 2005, have a system that works well, so for us, the next step is a lower sump (40mm >> 16mm). It's still up to you to decide what you want to do; just because we're doing dry sumps shouldn't affect you (but should give you more data to go off, hopefully).

PS. We'll be testing the 2011 car with flat sump in 2 days (Saturday) at Essendon with MOnash. I will post RPM vs OIlPress data; should be a pretty good indication if it works.

[Aly]

Thanks Rex

the point is our power team head (not me)
had claimed that it's better to change our wet sump config to a dry sump one (GSXR600 engine)..... and he was going for it 100% .

When I posted this thread to ask about some help concerning the eletric water pump , I've heard from dozens of people that that would be an extra bad idea and full of problems , including people like Pat Clarck ......

So our power team member was convinced to stop this trend and better work on our wet sump and make sure it does well ... ( changing to dry sump plan stoped)

Still I'm very interested to know about any results you get on running a dry sump
mainly concerned with heat issues and problems in integrating parts together ....

I'll be waiting for any pics or results with full passion http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Rex Chan]

Short video part way through the removal: MUR 2012: Flat (Dry) Sump Leaking (http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=10150682141823036)

[Rex Chan]

Well, bad news: the current system (as tested last Saturday), works less well than the one it replaced.

MUR 2012: Flat (16mm) Dry sump MoTeC i2 Std data (RPM vs Oil Pressure) Troy McCann (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150684514348036&set=a.10150684412833036.403180.559588035&type=3)
MUR 2012: Flat (16mm) Dry sump MoTeC i2 Std data (RPM vs Oil Pressure) Hashan Caldera (http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10150684514108036&set=a.10150684412833036.403180.559588035&type=3)

Need a bigger oil tank, or 3rd pickup at the front of the engine (for scavenge under deccel).

Video of the kind of driving we did (on Formula Ford Avon ACB10):
MUR 2012: Formula Ford Avon ACB10 on an FSAE car (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6kBxsO84yE)
MUR 2012: More Avon ACB10 drifting in FSAE car with Hashan Caldera (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLyPUaWSzcc)
MUR 2012: FSAE Flat Dry Sump testing at Essendon Airport with Troy McCann (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0ehHtnPckA)

[Menisk]

UQ's dry sump if anyone is curious.

http://i.imgur.com/gBrY8.png

[Rex Chan]

Menisk: that plot makes me VERY curious:

First question: is that oil pressure what it says? I'm reading it to mean that oil pressure never goes above 170kPa (1.7 bar). If so, that seems quite low. With our new dry sump pan, we are getting drops down to 1.5-2.0 bar. The stock CBR600RR PRV (pressure relief valve) is set to around 5.5 bar.

You also don't seem to be using all your RPM range (we go to 13500/15000; but others do as you do).

It seems to be a very nice curve though (pretty much what our old sump looked like). What type of sensor and where are you measuring it? We're running a VDO mechanical sensor on a AN-3 line off the main crank gallery (rear brass plug on the right hand side of the RR, where the stock oil pressure switch goes).

[Menisk]

Yeah, after looking at your plot I wondered why ours was reading so damn low. I think we're just using the stock oil pressure sensor on our CBR600F4i. If anything I think the calibration of the sensor is way off. The engine runs perfectly fine as is. I'll have a look at how the sensor is calibrated in our ECU when I get a chance.

Normally we have our car limited at 12800, there's no point going further because the power falls off pretty quickly. We currently have the limiter dropped to 10k for testing just because this is still our 2011 car which has run two comps and can't be run again. There's no need to flog the engine to get used to exactly how far we can push it. We figure we'd stick the limiter at 10 and just drive the car a bit easier to make sure we don't break anything before comp as we're planning on running this engine package with a new exhaust to fit the new chassis.