Interesting Saftey Discovery

[Sooner_Electrical]

I just noticed that the rules under 3.4.2.2 Suit only require a SFI 3-2A/1 which according to

http://www.northstarmotorsports.com/tech.tips/

can take a gas fire for 3 seconds before second degree burns, yet our egress time is 5 seconds so I think everyone should up personal goal on egressing :-).

[LU-Bolton]

It's a good thing my egress time was 2.7 seconds at Romeo. That was a personal best. It just takes a little practice fellas...

[JerryLH3]

In addition, you can buy a suit with a higher rating. The next rating up, 3-2A/5, buys you an approximate 6 seconds according to that link. It's nice to have extra layers. And it certainly doesn't hurt in Detroit.

[Erich Ohlde]

i'm pretty sure that if you were on fire you would move a lil faster.

[james17]

Ha, this issue is near and dear to my heart as well as ironic to bring up now seeing as how I am both getting ready to buy a new fire suit and this is one of the reasons I walked away from the FSAE group at my school. As a disclaimer I have been around stock cars my entire life where the fire is in front of you and it takes 10 to 45 seconds to get out.

The first thing people need to think about is that it actually takes longer to get out of the car in a fire. First if the car is moving you must get the car stopped which could take one second or ten depending upon many issues. Next you must locate the harness buckle, which you may or may not be able to see and may or may no be in the fire thereby making you more apprehensive to grab it. Next you must extract yourself from the car which doesn't sound like a big deal unless of course the car is upside down or crushed in any number of ways that make it impossible to get out quickly from. It's not hard to imagine a crash where you are in the car for 10 to 25 seconds thereby making your three second fire suit maybe the difference between being able to donate organs or not. To wear a fire suit that offers three seconds of protection is simply inadequate in any racing situation where you exceed 20 mph.

FSAE also allows the use of Probandt fire suits which unlike Nomex is simply cotton soaked in fire proof material that begins breaking down as soon as it is used to first time. Almost all real sanctioning bodies have outlawed Probandt and it amazes me that for all the pandering and posturing about safety that FSAE has not.

The other issue that must be considered is in a situation where you are either unconscious or can not get out the car how long do you wish to allow the safety workers to get to you before you are simply dead? FSAE has been fortunate to never have a large car fire in its history but I have seen fires consume Formula Vee's just the same as they consume stock cars, how much time do you really want for yourself and your teammates in a worse case situation?

I have always been told that you can not afford to race unless you can afford the best safety equipment money can buy. If FSAE is concerned about using arguably lax fire suit and helmet rules (still allowing M rated helmets) to allow lower budget teams to race then simply put FSAE is waiting for tragedy. I am currently in the process of buying and building parts to run a stock car in a class with a $1300 claim rule that essentially means a competitor can buy your car for that much minus seat and harness. My $1300 car is going to have a top of the line Kirkey seat; a 5 point Impact harness and I will have a 3 layer SFI 10 or better fire suit along with full Nomex under garments, balaclava, a good Bell helmet and a neck restraint device. I will have over twice the cost of the car tied up in date coded safety gear. Any individual can make their own decision about safety gear but to put it bluntly if you wear the minimum safety gear your sanctioning body requires and run in any wheel to wheel racing (FSAE) you should go ahead and make your peace your maker.

[Bill Kunst]

James-
You are very right on this issue. I think that alot of the teams look at price and are so busy with the rest of the car, Personal safety comes second. I have thought about the three second fire suit and have decided that this is for someone on a go kart that gets ejected into a hay bale rather than someone harnessed http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It isn't even good enough for the guys working on the cars in the pits of most races. Question becomes, why does anyone make it? I think this has to do more with race organizers than with the drivers. If you tell them they are required to have a higher rating they will get it. On the other hand, if you tell them they can drive in sandals and a swimsuit, some ass will.

As for why Sae hasn't had a major fire...
WE are very lucky to have so many people watching the track at any given time. Response times to a fire are usually less than 5 seconds, and we can usually tell if a car is going to burst into flames (noises as precursor-madison in 2003). We are also lucky, up until recently, that fuel cell size has been limited to 1.5 gal. I think that this was a little small, but 2 gallons would be more than enough. If this much gas started on fire, v. bad things happen fast. Most cars are on a much lighter load when they start on fire. And thank God for that.

Needless to say, we are all lucky on more than one account if we make it out of SAE alive. Lets take some the of the risk out of it, get sleep and wear good gear.
Bill

[Bill Kunst]

OK, here are some links...

www.simpsonraceproducts.com (http://www.simpsonraceproducts.com)
www.leafracewear.com (http://www.leafracewear.com)
www.profoxracing.com (http://www.profoxracing.com)
www.hinchmanindy.com/custom.htm (http://www.hinchmanindy.com/custom.htm)
www.sparcousa.com/racewear.asp (http://www.sparcousa.com/racewear.asp)
www.ompracing.it (http://www.ompracing.it)
www.winecountrymotorsports.com/d_suits/ds_stand.html (http://www.winecountrymotorsports.com/d_suits/ds_stand.html)
www.impactraceproducts.com/ (http://www.impactraceproducts.com/)


along with pyrotect, awesome racesuits, extreme racewear, racequip, R.J.S. racing equipment, SRP, Guardian

For all those wondering what the hell this is for, if you look into better protection it will cost you. But, betweeen all these sites, and many more, there is a financially viable saftey suit for all teams.

[BStoney]

I can speak from our team's experience, that the fire we experienced during the last lap of endurance in Detroit last May surely lasted longer than 5 seconds, and it took Bill approx. 2-3 seconds just to get the car to a stop before he could start to exit the cockpit. Luckily, the fire was in the engine bay only, and didn't reach the cockpit.

[Patrick W. Crane]

As an extra measure our seats are make of fire resistant fiberglass resin. And it works. While no one was in the car at the time, the car did catch fire on the stand once. the intake burned as well as the wiring. the seat was right in the fire but once it was put out it was still perfect.

which is quite reasuring.

It's a resin from reichold. http://www.reichhold.com/
they sent us a "sample" 4 litre batch. They usualy only come in 45gallon drums or like 10000 gallon trucks.... i can post teh exact stuff if anyone is interested.

[Homemade WRX]

I'm pretty sure the fire will be on the otherside of the fire wall while the driving is still in the car...otherwise there are some blind officials...

[RawePower]

Something to consider when purchasing safety equipment:

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A86.OR_D1eNE4w0B6lgBP88F;_ylu...urkhart_01rac e02.mov (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A86.OR_D1eNE4w0B6lgBP88F;_ylu=X3oDMTA4OTFrc2R zBHNlYwNwbHly/SIG=12nknm8fp/EXP=1155868483/**http%3a//www.nhra.com/2001/events/race02/video/PBurkhart_01race02.mov)

Consider the people standing behind the starting line in this video:

http://www.nhra.com/movies99/race23/DHerbert_99race23.mov

Nitromethane is nasty stuff.

[Andy K]

Here's a listing of the SFI ratings:
SFI 3-2A/1 (3 secs)
SFI 3-2A/3 (7 secs)
SFI 3-2A/5 (9.5 secs)
SFI 3-2A/15 (30 secs)
SFI 3-2A/20 (40 secs)

For eventual club racing use, I've been looking at getting at least a SFI 3-2A/5. In my mind it's the bare minimum for fire safety. Two piece suits shouldn't be allowed either.

[Bill Kunst]

Two things-
Holy crap that was a huge explosion. And to consider that it was only the fuel being injected into the engine as the fuel cell is all the way in the front of the car.

Second-
It took burkhart, in the fastest form of racing, and the shortest duration, almost12 to 14 seconds to get out of the car. Remember that the driver can kick the distributor to adjust timing in a funny car (meaning the engine is close and exposed).

[Michael Royce]

Andy,
FYI. The wording of the minimum suit requirements for SCCA Club Racing is quite complex (2006 GCR page 90). But speaking as an SCCA scrutineer for 30+ years, basically it boils down to a suit that is either SFI 3-2A/1 with Nomex underwear, or 3-2A/5, or FIA labelled. (Nomex underwear not mandatory with the /5 or FIA suits.) One piece suits are highly recommended. Proban suits are NOT approved. Proban underwear is. I suspect that most other road racing sanctioning bodies are in line with the SCCA rules on this.

I wear a one piece /5 suit plus Nomex when I race.

SCCA Solo (Solo II as it was termed until recently) on which Formula SAE is based, does not require driver's suits, or gloves or arm restraints, even for AM. And the helmet requirements are similar in that Snell M rated helmmets are allowed. However, per the latest FSAE Rules, M95 and SA95 helmets will not be approved for the 2007 FSAE competitions.

[Steve Yao]

To me, the relatively lax requirements of SCCA Solo and thus FSAE is largely due to the fact that we are not meant to run wheel to wheel. We are meant to run time trials where (with a properly designed SCCA course) all you are likely to impact are cones....nothing that would rupture a fuel cell.

However, we do run student designed and fabricated fuel systems...

[Andy K]

Originally posted by Michael Royce:
Andy,
FYI. The wording of the minimum suit requirements for SCCA Club Racing is quite complex (2006 GCR page 90). But speaking as an SCCA scrutineer for 30+ years...

Thanks for the insight on the SCCA rules. I've been looking at either SCCA, 944Cup (NASA) or PCA events and comparing bang for buck factor while being competitive with a 924S. I'm guessing that it's all pretty similar.