Having problems starting an FSAE team

[Anvit Garg]

Hey our faculty sponsor has backed out because of legal liability issues. I dont think he really has time to look into alternate ways.

What can I suggest our professor do? A few of us have considered producing a waiver that everyone signs.

Also for a university that does not offer much in automotive engineering. What can a mechanical engineer undergrad do to get started? I have purchased a few books recommended from this forum but I am still lost.

I have experience with playing around with regular passenger cars, but not much applies to formula race vehicles. I am currently learning my way around CATIA, but need to figure out where to start when it comes to a chassis.

Also I am almost done with the first semester in my JR year so I am done with statics, dynamics and solid mechanics. So someone with that tiny bit of knowledge, what can I acquire to become nearly as versed as the people on this board?

Thank you in advance (for not flaming me).

[Anvit Garg]

Hey our faculty sponsor has backed out because of legal liability issues. I dont think he really has time to look into alternate ways.

What can I suggest our professor do? A few of us have considered producing a waiver that everyone signs.

Also for a university that does not offer much in automotive engineering. What can a mechanical engineer undergrad do to get started? I have purchased a few books recommended from this forum but I am still lost.

I have experience with playing around with regular passenger cars, but not much applies to formula race vehicles. I am currently learning my way around CATIA, but need to figure out where to start when it comes to a chassis.

Also I am almost done with the first semester in my JR year so I am done with statics, dynamics and solid mechanics. So someone with that tiny bit of knowledge, what can I acquire to become nearly as versed as the people on this board?

Thank you in advance (for not flaming me).

[Anvit Garg]

Also here is a link to SAE971584

http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=50032&page=1

Which is my starting point.

I am considering buying Race Car Vehicle Dynamics since it has crazy reviews on amazon. I am getting a little tired of buying hit or misses, is there a better book than that one?

Thanks!

[Horace]

race car vehicle dynamics is pretty good in my opinion.

As far as liability issues, I ran into the same problems and looking back into it I would suggest don't listening to the administration too much and think about what is physically stopping you from welding or machining or that kind of thing.

The response I've gotten from breaking the rules and not getting hurt was fairly positive.

A common mistake is that you need to design your suspension and layout the items in your car first before you design the chassis. You figure out where all your mounting points are, and then you play connect the dots.

[Anvit Garg]

I went on the authors' website and saw they had developed a whole course and study material set to go with the book (including a CD rom). Using SAE's 20% off, I was able to get the book, the question book and the software for 130 shipped.

It looks really promising, and after reading through that SAE publication, I think this book will help.

It said exactly what you mentioned about connecting the dots, which makes more sense because at first I was thinking people begin with the rest of the frame and then build. The dot method makes more sense.

About the liability, before I joined, the Technology department had built a car with a few of the ME's. They suddenly had a change of heart and made their SAE project Technology only. But we had a business donate a really good welder as well as a guy(who we have access to, he wasn't donated lol) who does an outstanding job welding.

The problem is if we do not have a faculty sponsor, I dont think its legal to call it a university team, which prevents a lot of businesses from donating money since its more private. We just want university support, which means they provide us a area to work on the car and store it. I am going to talk to the technology prof and see how he dealt with the liability issue.

[D Collins Jr]

Anvit,
I'm not sure that I understand exactly where the liability issue is, but my guess is concern for personal injury in manufacturing or driving. If that's incorrect, please disregard the rest of this. You mentioned the University providing you with a place to work, which I assume is a machine shop of some sort. Unless there are crazy bizarre laws where you are, they should have a shop insurance policy to cover injury. As far as injury/liability in the driving/competition portion of FSAE, the competitions have pretty substantial insurance policies as well. If you explain all of this to your professor and maybe some administration, and take Horace's advice to keep building (with proper safety). You can make alot of headway. Once you get cleared to build a car, then all you have to do is fight the administration to let you drive it somewhere! And as I'm sure you know, you can get alot of comparitive information about how other schools support their teams on this forum.

Best of luck to you,

[Brian S]

Each year we have to renew our permission to test the car on campus. One of the people we have to talk to is the universities' insurance and risk management guy. He wrote a half page long waiver that everyone has to sign that basically says the university and its staff are not responsible for anything that we do. He also wrote a list of all the requirements for driving, which is mostly just following the FSAE rules, and a list of university emergency contacts.

I'm sure your university has an equivalent person, you should go talk to them about it.

[Anvit Garg]

I sat down and talked to the technology professor who is allowing the technology students to participate in FSAE. He said that the faculty member must assume liability in the event of injury without the University backing them.

He also said that this is common with all universities and that a waiver of faculty liability would never really hold up in court in the event of an injury. He said whenever it is a university sponsored activity, you really can not waive that liability. The example he used was during my freshman year we had to take chemistry and a lab portion, in that lab, we signed a waiver. He said that waiver is BS and doesn't really protect the school all that much.

He actually is taking liability for his students and does this by only allowing trustable students to work on the vehicle. (I don't really see that as a good idea because you really cant trust anyone.)

In response to D Collins Jr.:

You are correct on both parts, I will have to research the available insurance options for driving when I present this case to the Dean this Monday. Students are banned from using the machine shop, so at best, we would get a room large enough to house the vehicle and engine. (But technology students are allowed in their shops, BUT the faculty assumes liability)

We are going to have to build this like you guys have said on the side, but can we legally call our selves a university FSAE team? We wouldn't be backed by the university. Which means, how can we ask local companies for funding? (The are less likely to say yes, but its still worth a try)

Brian S: Do you have a electronic copy of that waiver? Can I please have a copy if you do?

Thank you guys so much for your help so far.

[Wes Johnson]

Our school has an insurance policy for any recognized 'club sport' organization. Such as football, basketball, etc.. Perhaps you can try and be recognized as one of these organizations on your campus and get the insurance through there, assuming your school has a similar procedure.

Ask around with some of these clubs on your campus and see what they do for insurance.

Best of luck and keep up the fight.

-Wes

[Brian S]

Here are the files from the insurnace/risk management guy, as well as a fuel use thing the fire marshal wanted.

http://sae.wsu.edu/files/car_testing.zip

[Aaron Heisler]

I was the captain last year for York College in PA and it was our first entrance into the competition. We had no trouble being "approved" by the college but before you go through the approval process you might want to sit down and get a very good understanding of what the costs are associated with fsae. I spend a few weeks putting together an extensive cost analysis and fund-raising plan that I presented to our department before they would give their approval.

And I agree with the previous statements about breaking the rules and getting away with it. Our security people wanted to know when we would be testing again so they could hang out with us. Most people, even administrators, enjoy fsae once the car is sitting in front of them.

Good luck and keep us posted.

[Anvit Garg]

Thanks guys, I will do my best to present this case to the Dean of ME.

[vreihen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Anvit Garg:
He said that the faculty member must assume liability in the event of injury without the University backing them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know what kind of insurance is in place at your school, but the insurance at the college where I work even covers my liability in the event of having an accident in my personal car transporting a student...on or off campus!

If the problem is covering a non-credit activity, maybe they can throw a "bogus" lab fee out as an option for the team's members to pay to become an official academic "class" and get covered by the school's liability insurance?????

[lokuputha]

Anvit,

We started developing our Formula SAE team last year, and it is a very steep learning curve, but well worth it. We will complete our first prototype by next spring.

My suggestion would be to get the head of Health and Safety on your side. Also, talk with the head of the school workshop, they are always very happy to help out.

You faculty sponsor probably backed out because they were too lazy and had no motivation to continue; they probably had a hard time relating to Formula SAE. Find a faculty member that is an enthusiast, it is always easier this way. I can't stress the importance of networking; talk to as many people as you can.

Finally regarding your insurance issue...most, if not all, schools have umbrella insurance coverage which insures anyone that is within its premises. This really shouldn't be your issue to sort through such matters, just get a Faculty member to deal with it, while you concentrate on getting the team going.

All the best to you and your team. Hope to see you at the races!

p.s.- almost forgot, talk with your Student Council, they are almost always swimming in money.