Honda VFR400 engine?

[yossarian]

Has anybody ever tried the Honda VFR/RVF400 400cc V4 engine? Looks like quite a nice compact package for an FSAE car. I'd probably want some forced induction though...

[A Reinke]

that's not made anymore, so finding one might be trickey...and getting parts would be even tougher.

i like the idea of it though.

[Charlie]

UCF ran a V4 a couple years ago, I think 2001. Really nice looking car, don't remember the exact engine though.

-Charlie Ping

I just need enough to tide me over until I need more.

[Jason Hickman]

I think UCF used a 500cc V4 Honda. I know they had to specially order it.

[Big Bird]

There is a 400cc racing class here in Oz
(bikes that is), so supply of a VFR engine shouldn't be too hard. A few of the grey importers should have them lying around. Should be a bit of expertise in tuning them too. Keep an eye on the local bike racing calendar, (should be able to get one through Motorcyling Victoria, the local body), and go along to a meeting where they are running this class. You'll find them at Club level meetings, (e.g. Hartwell), and the Vic State series.

Not a bad little motor, will have a look through my back issues of Racetech and Racecar Eng to identify who ran one in the US a few years back. It was supercharged from memory.

You'll probably find that the restrictor does little to affect outright power at this capacity. I think naturally aspirated in the bike they achieved around 53hp, not a bad start. Nice flat power curve too. Just be careful, most V motors suffer from overheating on the rear cylinders though, so you'll have to pay particular attention to cooling, especially if you are hiking the power output somewhat.

Cheers, and thumbs up for thinking outside of the square.

Geoff Pearson
RMIT FSAE 2003

Design it. Build it. Write it off two weeks before the event.

[Eric Wort]

We have one sitting around in storage, it weighs around 10lbs more than a 600cc F4 does. Its also not any easier to package for IMHO, as the V sits front-rear. The plugs are hard to get here in the US, that's probably not an issue in Australia though.

We were originally going to use it in a side-engined design, but were disgusted by how heavy it is for a 400.

Eric Wort
UIUC Formula SAE (http://dilbert.cen.uiuc.edu/soc/sae/formula/)

[MikeWaggoner at UW]

"I think naturally aspirated in the bike they achieved around 53hp, not a bad start. "

They're getting pretty close to that with the singles. I realize the singles will have more loss due to fewer pulses, but that can be cured by super/turbo charging. The singles also save ~60 lbs....

-Mike Waggoner
UW

[vern]

They are extrememly popular in the UK as are all the 400s but the VFR400 mostly so. The best of the lot is the VFR400R or NC30 which standard makes 59bhp @ 12,500rpm. They are cracking little bikes to ride (I loved mine to bits) although it is the handling that is exceptional. I disagree about the flat power curve, they dont really move until 7000rpm and really start shifting after 10000 and hence have a very tall first gear and then very close ratios. The V4 doesnt help much when installing in a car as I guess it is mainly designed to keep a narrow profile of the bike to aid flickability(and make a cool noise). They are much easier to get hold of than the F4i over here and spares are plentiful and cheap.
I have always wondered whether the Suzuki Bandit (GSF) 400 would be a good choice as i believe it is quite light and also has variable valve timing as standard, its quite a torquey engine which is always a good thing.
Anyway, I couldnt pass a post about my old girlfriend without adding my bit.

Joe Vernon

[MikeWaggoner at UW]

I really think the narrow inline V4 shape would help. At WWU we used two tubes that ran the length of the car for torsional stiffness, and the width of them was limited by engine width ( http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/pages/V35%20Chassis_jpg.htm )

Here at the UW (and most places I see), the spaceframe around the engine has traditionally been a weak spot for torsional stiffness, and a narrower engine would help the packaging as well. I realize the engine can be stressed, but the necessity of component removability leads to less than ideal structure.

[aniLD]

Hey everybody, I am intrested in this engine for our 05 team! Does anybody have any views on its suitability for the comp?? Any pros or cons?? Id be interested to hear ppl's comments.

Thanks

[Eddie Martin]

I thought you guys were running the wattard?

[yossarian]

In 2004, most probably yes. In 2005, highly unlikely - Will Attard won't be around any more.

[Eddie Martin]

If the wattard is a good package and works well for your team and fits the cars overall packaging and concept well i'm sure someone else on the team could take over the research.

One of the guys on our team did some research into the VFR 400, it weighs about 52kg (CBR600 about 59kg). The packaging would be interesting. Getting the headers to fit in with the rear end of the car especially if you ran a turbo might present an issue, i guess it depends on the overall concept of the vehicle.

[yossarian]

Well, it's entirely up to the '05 team to decide which engine they want to use. There's a lot of discussion going on at the moment about different choices, so I'll be interested to see what they choose!

[Draksia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jason Hickman:
I think UCF used a 500cc V4 Honda. I know they had to specially order it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was in fact two vfr400 engines. They came from England and where special order. The 500 model was a US version and I believe made less hp then 400 version.

We currently only have that is near operational condition. The other had a piston holed on the dyno which later some one attempted to weld it up.

It is good engine is a quite small package although as others have stated it is not all that light. The header routing is a big issue ours has several 180 degree bends.

[aniLD]

wow! Somebody is actually talking about the engine!

Draksia, do you u have any more info you can provide about this engine??? How much power was it making on the dyno? Why has the team shyed away from using it? Are there any major drawbacks with the engine apart from the exhaust layout?

Thanx!! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Draksia]

The most it ever made reliably for competition is 52hp. The supercharged version that blow up on the dyno was making 80 something hp.

The main reason we are not still using it is that parts are basically impossible to get in the states. They all have to be special ordered from Japan or UK. Also it is down almost 1/3 of the displacement from what most every one else is running. If you are going to go forced induction it might be a good choice.

Also no one who worked on that engine is car is no longer around. That was a good portion of the decesion we made.

[aniLD]

Thanxs Draksia,

So this engine wast that reliable!!!

I think there are more parts available here in oz for them, but most are x race bikes.

[powered by wattard]

Some people are keen to get me out of the way for 05, i wonder why. Nobody else speaks on my behalf except myself.

Will Attard

[The guru of guru's]

You know whos ya mate after they stab ya in the back on the forum.

[drivetrainUW-Platt]

so you guys experimented with supercharging? what kind of supercharger did you guys run, haven't ever heard of one made for a crotch rocket or similar application. has anyone run one at competition?? it would be sweet to make a mini twin skrew for a bike engine!

[Draksia]

Unfortunately all the people that worked on that car are no longer in the club. The supercharger on ours was a very small roots style. The project was canned shortly after the first engine was damaged from it. I don't know the orginal application for the supercharger. The v style does makes it easier to package. The smallest twin screw that I know of is made by lysholm but it 1.2l per rev so that is quite large but not impossible for our applications.

[waz]

I did a thesis study on engine choice.

After reviewing many alternatives I concluded the VFR400 was the best choice. They can be purchased in Sydney Aust. from RB Imports for just $800 and there is no trouble with parts as they stock honda and aftermarket performance stuff too. Weight is about 7 kg less than the 600ccs. They are raced here and are considered very very reliable. The only notable weakness the valve springs. The slightly low (11.3) compression ratio is likely to result in slightly lower combustion effeicency too.

I was however intending to turbocharger the engine which required the turbocharger to be located beside the motor for a simple setup. With the VEE configuration the intake path could be very compact.

The sump is very deep in the engine so a cut down sump or drysump would make the cg lower than the 600ccs too.

[Craig.]

Waz

Is it possible for you to email either that report or a brief? I'm curious what engines you included and what the conclusion is based on (ie. how much is based on engine as stock and as modified, whether an intermediate decision on capacity was first reached as I've heard it can be a primary consideration, etc).

Cheers,
Craig Lewis
MUR '05