To shut down our team or not?

[dr47watson]

UTSA FSAE is having a meeting tomorrow with the Engineering faculty. The subject is the future of the team. Basically the faculty feels that the FSAE car is a liability. They feel that the liability is so great that the cars are never to be driven except at the competition. (Pause for laughter) I feel that this situation is unworkable. Would you put all the time and effort that goes into this project only to see it run once? Or... Would you resign knowing it would be the end of the team? Fun decision, what do you all think?


Rich

UTSA FSAE

[dr47watson]

UTSA FSAE is having a meeting tomorrow with the Engineering faculty. The subject is the future of the team. Basically the faculty feels that the FSAE car is a liability. They feel that the liability is so great that the cars are never to be driven except at the competition. (Pause for laughter) I feel that this situation is unworkable. Would you put all the time and effort that goes into this project only to see it run once? Or... Would you resign knowing it would be the end of the team? Fun decision, what do you all think?


Rich

UTSA FSAE

[Angry Joe]

Neither. I would raise an UNHOLY amount of hell before I accepted either solution.



Lehigh Formula SAE Alumni
Team Captain 2002-2003

www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula (http://www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula)

[Dick Golembiewski]

1. Do you have a faculty advisor who is plugging away for you?

2. I went through something similar as a faculty advisor. An awful lot has to do with how you conduct yourselves, your test procedures, etc. That's why I insisted on being at every test. It helps to have a plan for just how and where you'll test. remember that at the competition, the speeds are VERY low, save for one sweeper, and things have been arranged so that there isn't much to hit. Your tests should be arranged in a similar manner. (Not just for safety - you'll want to duplicate competition conditions.

3. If you need further input, let me know.

- Dick

[dr47watson]

Joe,

That option has been explored in the past.

http://fsae.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=763607348&f=125607348&m=7186092054&r=4446011254#4446011254

Dick,

1. We have a faculty advisor who does all he can.

2. Our testing and training is carefully supervised by myself. I trained people how to crew CH47D helicopters (9,000 horsepower, 25,000 pounds) in the Army. I apply the same level of saftey and caution to the FSAE cars.

3. Thanks, I will

Rich

[Denny Trimble]

Rich,
If it helps, here is a description of our test program.

We test an average of two days per month except in the two months before competition, when we test 4 to 6 days per month.

These tests are conducted in a large private parking lot, with permission of the owner. We have a team captain on-site to oversee safety in the course setup and driver conduct.

In addition, we take our car to local and national Autocross events, about 5 or 6 per year.

To this date (15 years) we have had no injuries to drivers, mechanics, or spectators, requiring more than a band-aid. This type of racing and class of car is much safer than most other racing series, most of which involve concrete barriers and wheel-to-wheel racing.

Let me know if you'd like me to send a letter to anyone in particular if it will help. Testing is critical to your learning as well as the success of the team. Why build a car if you can't test it? Showing up and driving it for the first time in Detroit is a guaranteed disaster.

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04)

[fsae_alum]

Rich, I can't believe that you didn't contact Adrian, Hector (who's back in town), or myself on this one. We all would have easily and vigotrously protested on behalf of the team that we all brought back to life (even if it was for only 5 members http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). After all, we're all alumni, what do we have to lose?

What about driving it off campus? We had to do that plenty of times. I understand that it is a little bit harder to do without a trailer and a truck but we can scrounge one up for you somewhere.

To shed some light on what's going on, IMO as an alum from this university, the team is stuck in a political fight. The former faculty advisor whom we all politely showed the finger to a couple of years ago after trying to fight us every step of the way has now become the department head. That puts him as the direct supervisor for the existing faculty advisor. When the existing faculty advisor has to choose between sticking his neck out and supporting the team or getting his paycheck and supporting his family, it's not hard to see who's going to get screwed almost everytime in that deal!!

Kind of highly ironic how they NEVER wanted to support the team and the construction of the car, and then as soon as it's built, I see it plastered on the front page of the university website, in university promotional flyers that we're distributed in almost EVERY community newspaper within a 200 mile radius, and mentioned in countless speeches by the dean.

Let us know if you need any help. I can probably round up some of the 95-96 former team members to protest also. I don't know what the status of the relationship is with the sponsors, but if it's good and you've been maintaing continuing contact with them, they would probably stand up for you guys too. Let us know what we can do. We've seen worse before, don't give up. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

In spite of...

[Charlie]

Best thing to do if you really want to keep your team around-

Be prepared, and leave your ego at the door.

In other words, come up with a plan for driving. Make up some rules, print them out and bind them, make them fairly restrictive. Show up to the meeting prepared, and also very humble. Just tell whoever that you are very sorry that you never had clear enough guidlines, or whatever. Just make them think they are winning, it usually works for me. It is gut-wrenching, but as soon as the yelling starts you can probably kiss your team goodbye.

I've never had to fight for the existance of our team, but I've had some pretty difficult decisions and complications with our university management. Bets thing to do is try your best to make them think they've 'changed' you, that they have won the battle, and you are surrendering to thier solutions. If you are clever though, thier solution can be your own.

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[fsae_alum]

Charlie, with all due respect, as alum from this university, we tried that in 2001 and things came to a screeching halt and before we knew it we were locked out of the shop for 3 months surrounding Christmas. Our only real solution was to move off campus completely. That pretty much made everybody happy....except for the former faculty advisor that threatned to have everybody arrested for theft for taking stuff that was paid for with private funds that we're never channelled through the university. No liabiliy though... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The bigger problem is that there is nobody that is standing up for the students in terms of a faculty advisor as a result of a conflict of interest.

Point blank is that in all honesty the department head (former SAE advisor) has it out for the SAE program. Grudges die hard and this grudge has been there since 95-96. 95-96 students refered to hime like a bad cop, you can either do what he says or he can make your life a living hell....and he'll do it solely for the fact that he CAN do it.

This matter has been taken to SAE national in the past, and they were appauled at the actions.

No matter how you look at it, it's not good.

In spite of...

[fsae_alum]

Forgot to mention that since this is a University of Texas school, how is any different than the other 2 schools up the road in Austin and Arlington? That was ALWAYS one of the points that Dr. Woods from UTA brought up every time I seeked guidance from him in the past about our problems. UTSA is NO different than UTA and UT......except that the faculty chooses to say "No".

In spite of...

[Angry Joe]

Post the contact information for the advisor, the head of the ME dept, the president, etc. I would be willing to speak up and I'm sure many others would be as well. It sounds like a lot of people are upset over this from all over, so if you keep fighting you might get somewhere. I will spread this to my team and alumni (30 people right there) if you let me.



Lehigh Formula SAE Alumni
Team Captain 2002-2003

www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula (http://www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula)

[fsae_alum]

Rich and/or Shawn at UTSA...this is your call. Hello guys.....

Forgot to include that we went down this path with testing previously a couple of years ago. We prepared a testing plan that included the following:
1.) A detailed course map
2.) List of safety features of the car (roll over kill switch, double hull fuell cell, emergency cut off switch, on board fire suppression system, etc...)
3.) Maximum speed to be achieved (45 mph max)
4.) Purpose of testing (kinematic with virtually NO straights)
5.) Parking lot requested and how to control the parking lot to prevent any student traffic (barricares, tape, cones)
6.) Time of testing (lazy Sunday afternoon = little traffic)
7.) Where we will have workers stationed
8.) How people present that know CPR
9.) How many people will be driving the car (1)
10.) How many fire extinguishers present (3)

They shot the idea down after passing it around for 2 weeks and it finally ended up in the hands of a "Risk Evaluator". They said that it was WAY too dangerous and too much of a liability. "The parking lot was never designed to be a racetrack" Ummmmm....but it's not... "That's the end of it!!"


BTW, I emailed the president of the univ today to stir the pot.

Angry Joe..we've had the Chairman of the Board of Directors/President of Engineering of a global manufacturing company call ALL those people in the past and rip them down one side and then down the other with no effect. Guess you can't make people love you. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


In spite of...

[Angry Joe]

The least you can do is make it a royal pain for them. I was not going to send a malicious email but if ten students each from 20 teams sent emails supporting you it would be hard to ignore. Also, contact your local newspaper, television station, talk show, whatever. Don't let them win!



Lehigh Formula SAE Alumni
Team Captain 2002-2003

www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula (http://www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula)

[dr47watson]

Post meeting.

We can drive the new (still just a glimmer on the cad screen) car only if a faculty member is present. When the new car is complete our advisor promises to have the time to be there. The old cars are pretty much off limits.

I am trying to get our advisor to come to the next local autocross to see what its all about.

I appreciate everyones offers of support. If things get worse I may take you all up on the mass email campaign, but for now I'm inclined to wait and see.


Rich

UTSA FSAE (still here)

[dr47watson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you are clever though, thier solution can be your own.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I thought that only worked on girls. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Rich

[Michael Jones]

What a pickle.

Definitely try to build up as much support from as many sources as you can. Plan it out in escalating levels of intensity and always try to take the high road - just makes you look better.

If your dept. head is out for blood, no reasonable argumentation will work. In which case, I would certainly go over his head in appeal - people who instill fear in their subordinates are generally scared shitless of their superiors. And go below (student body) and outside (other FSAE teams and esp their advisors, SAE national, campus and local media outlets, etc.) No power, but bad PR is always bad news. Getting your sponsors on side is a good idea as well - especially if they donate to other accounts within the university.

Laterally will have little effect since as you note, his subordinates might not want to get involved for perfectly just personal reasons.

Overall, people are generally more lazy than evil - if this becomes a larger conflict that makes his daily life poor and impacts his real job, he might change his mind. So, make his life problematic - slowly and level-headed at first, and then ramp it up (letting other people rant and rave if at all possible...e.g., Angry Joe's suggestion of getting people here to write poignant notes is good, but probably not your first line of attack.)

Moving off campus probably is difficult for a variety of legal reasons, not the least is that you'd cease to be a university team, and by the rules, you have to be. Legally, they'll have recourse if you claim to be UTSA SAE if you have zero relations and less than zero support.

Wow. Good luck. I too would be happy to write something on your behalf if it comes to that, and help design a good counterattck.

---
Michael Jones
Coordinator, Student Project Teams, College of Engineering

Cornell Racing
http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu

[ethanL007]

dr47,
you post the addresses, we'll send the letters. University of New Hampshire FSAE

Ethan Lessard
Team Captain
UNH Precision Racing
www.domesticpc.com/fsae (http://www.domesticpc.com/fsae)

[gug]

personally, i like Michael Jones' suggestion. "people who instill fear in their subordinates are generally scared shitless of their superiors"

i have a suspicion that if you bombard someone like this evil ex-supervisor with emails he would treat them like junk mail and direct even more hate at you. of course, im from the other side of the world and only know of this situation through stories on a forum. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

i would love to write an email to your dean or whatever, outlining how much their treatment of your formula sae team affects engineers' and employers' opinions around the world. many universities (especially mine) rely on the prestige behind their name to get their gradutates jobs. shafting the fsae team like that, forcing you to go to the competition with an underprepared car and drivers, can only damage the university's name.


actually, since ive got the true engineer's ability to murder the english language (too long just grunting technical things to other engineers), getting me to write the letter might just be shooting yourself in the foot. but dont worry, ill get the ex-politician on my team to write the letter...

- the problem with the world is stupidity. i'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety lables off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

[Jason Davis]

As far as how to approuch the folks in charge, that is kinda dependant of the situation. I would point out that this program provides students with an unparalled opportunity to learn REAL engineering. THe skills and lessons learned in this program can not be taught in the class room. For anyone who has driven and broken a car can tell you that they learned more from that experiance than they ever learned in a class room. I have had to go to bat with our faculty some to try and get support and we have promoted the educational benifits and have had decent results. Best of luck to you.

[gug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jason Davis:
As far as how to approuch the folks in charge, that is kinda dependant of the situation. I would point out that this program provides students with an unparalled opportunity to learn REAL engineering. THe skills and lessons learned in this program can not be taught in the class room. For anyone who has driven and broken a car can tell you that they learned more from that experiance than they ever learned in a class room. I have had to go to bat with our faculty some to try and get support and we have promoted the educational benifits and have had decent results. Best of luck to you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i agree so completly with you, thats the essential reason that i joined fsae. in my experience though, there are some academics who have absolutly no idea not only that practical experience is one of the best learning tools, but they dont even realise that you can build things. they think the whole world just works off numbers and figures out of a text book.

i have a feeling that this supervisor either doesnt understand practical learning, or he doesnt give a fuck about his students. anyone who understands the benefit of experience and actually cares about students has to support fsae.

okay, im really going to stop ranting now. this story has set me off because having some middle-management fuckwit try and shut down my team because of liability is my worst nightmare, and i can see the possibility of it happening at my uni too.

- the problem with the world is stupidity. i'm not saying there should be a capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the safety lables off of everything and let the problem solve itself?

[Angry Joe]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gug:
to stop ranting now. this story has set me off because having some middle-management fuckwit try and shut down my team because of liability is my worst nightmare, and i can see the possibility of it happening at my uni too.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exact same feelings here. We are blessed with an understanding department head and an enthusiastic advisor, as well as some great people in the faculty and staff who go out of their way for us.

But still, and outside of the ME department, few people care about the project despite our efforts to promote it. Many see us the same way as UTSA does: a liability and nothing more. My worst fear is what is occuring here and it pisses me off immensely.

We are students who go to massive lengths to learn about, design and compete with race cars. We do it on our own initiative and often with little or no credit. Most of us do things that should not be possible for a twenty-year old kid who's often never been within spitting distance of anything resembling a respectable race car. We deserve more fucking respect than this.



Lehigh Formula SAE Alumni
Team Captain 2002-2003

www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula (http://www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula)

[fsae_alum]

This is something for ALL FSAE teams to watch out for:

I was thinking back on all of our LONG experiences at UTSA, and I remembered what part of the problem is. This idiot (who walks around in a suit 99% of the time and has NEVER, EVER turned a wrench in his life) is of the VERY stubborn belief that SAE at UTSA is a legal entity (part) of the university....therefore, everything they own, or build is property of the university. That is why they are worried about driving the cars OFF campus. If it is property of the university, then they are liable if anybody gets hurt, regardless of where it is driven. However, there is one flaw with this!!! SAE at UTSA is NOT a part of UTSA. Remember, the name is SAE AT UTSA. That means location. It is equivalent to the name of the university itself....The University of Texas AT San Antonio. That doesn't mean that the University of Texas and all of it's belongings/property belongs to the city of San Antonio does it? Much the same here. You see.... I went through this with him time and time again when we moved off campus in the past. SAE at UTSA is a Registered Student Organization that meets AT The University of Texas at San Antonio. By that, they are no different than.....say the Baptist Club AT UTSA right? Now....I do remember a little law here in the USA stating that there is a separation of church and state, and the university is primarily state funded. Soooo...what does that mean? That just like the Baptist club is not a part of UTSA, neither is SAE. The property, including cars, of SAE, is 100% the property of the students and the organization of SAE at UTSA. This was confirmed MANY times by the official university office of student organizations. This is further compounded by the fact that without a doubt, 100% of the 01-02 car was paid for from OFF-CAMPUS, private donations, which we're made exclusively to SAE at UTSA, and not any part of UTSA. As a matter of fact, some of our sponsors required that we be legally listed by the IRS as a 501c3 non-profit organization (similar to United Way, etc...) so that they could make donations specifically to us and NOT to the university. The SPONSORS requested this because they knew that if they gave it to the university, we would see 10% of it and the rest would be spent on some mohogany office furniture for some prick who we'd never see in our academic career.

Stepping down off the soap box now.

Remember, in most cases, you're NOT a legal part of the university, and therefore, there is NO liability when driving off campus, and further, faculty cannot control what you do with the vehicles (at least in our case).

In spite of...

[Sam Zimmerman]

It is aparent that the FSAE club at UTSA has a long history of fighting with the university. Part of the job of the team leader is to play politics and keep the faculty advisor and his/her bosses happy. I hate to say it but it sounds as though some teams in the past chose to fight with the university instead of working within their bounds and this year's team is paying for it.

It is always easy to point fingers at the faculty and call names but sometimes you have to put your pride aside, do things their way for a while to establish trust and credibility, and then they will allow you to have more of a voice in matters. Our 2003 team had to mend alot of fences torn down by the 2002 team but without the work we did, there would be no 2004 team.

Moral of the story: Know your history and ensure you do things differently from those who caused your current situation. Work within the framework of your university so you leave things better than what those before you left you.

Sam Zimmerman
Vandals Racing (http://www.uidaho.edu/~racing)

[fsae_alum]

Sam....that is very good advice. In 2001, we actually did exactly what you're suggesting. We swallowed a bunch of pride and sat down with the then faculty advisor and did things their way for a while...(6 months). Yes, we were mending bridges from the incidents with the 95-96 team to certain extents. To your point, things were running very smoothly....except for the fact that nothing was getting done on the car, and there was no expediency on any part of the faculty to try to help to get ANYTHING done. We ultimately came to the conclusion that by going the route of this particular faculty member, we would most likely never reach our goal of building a car and going to competition. This became blatently abvious when he was trying to push us REAL hard in to abandoning designing the car and instead (I'm not joking here) selling cookies in front of the Engineering building. I'm serious here. I sure hope there aren't many engineers at GM, Ford, Chrysler, Visteon, etc.... that were hired because they can bake a wonderful set of cookies http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Basically, SAE at UTSA was one of only 2 engineering student organizations at UTSA that would physically try to put their skills to use by designing and building something. I'm sure things would go much smoother if the team didn't.

Our problem wasn't so much with the university, but with one particular faculty member who now has a great deal of power. The current team is following your advice to a tee and has been for well over a year now.

In spite of...

[Denny Trimble]

(off topic here)

"Selling cookies" is a large part of the SAE experience at UW. Our fundraising activities include:
-Selling krispy kremes (when the first store came to our town... now there's no money in it)
-Working concessions at Mariners games
-Parking cars for UW football games
-Hosting autocross events
-Renting students as course workers for autocrosses (pay us to do your work assignment)
-Car washes in the spring
-Any other profitable way we can find to whore ourselves out. Everyone is expected to work a certain number of fundraising events per year.

Even with large amounts of sponsorship, we have several thousand dollars in cash we need to raise each year. There's no way around it. You might not be hired for your fundraising ability, but a "get it done" attitude goes a long way.

Sorry to hear about your FA situation.

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04)

[steve d.]

Funny reading this...

Once you guys graduate, and get out in..."the real world" so to speak, you'll run up against this time and time again. Instead of advisors, they call them MARKETING.

Sorry about the team, lots of good ideas have been given here. It's what happens when non-enthusiasts are running the show. I'll bet that none of them work on their own cars, or have even been in something resonably fast.

steve.
off to porter a lotus today.

[Michael Jones]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> However, there is one flaw with this!!! SAE at UTSA is NOT a part of UTSA. Remember, the name is SAE _AT_ UTSA. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not to rain on a fine rant, but there is some connection to UTSA even if you move wholly off-campus and fund yourself as a distinct 501(c), etc. UTSA isn't just a location, it's a brand name. If Cornell's team decided to blow and move our facilities to Tompkins County Community College or my garage or wherever, we couldn't legally say we were "at Cornell" even if all the team members were. Cornell would have a fit and legally be in the right in saying that we were not officially associated with the university. Hell, they already have issues with our internal trademarks and logos - they want to populate the world with that stupid-ass JCPenney logo knock-off that they spent $1mil on.

Now, all this would be fine and good if you were allowed to enter FSAE without university affiliation. Unfortunately, that's not the case - there are specific rules regarding school affiliation and faculty sponsorship. With respect to faculty sponsorship in particular, that's a direct tie to the school, and no faculty advisor who values his/her job will put their employer in a position where they'll be liable for activities that happen off campus.

So, at some level, you need UTSA on board if you are to be UTSA SAE. If you can't be in the end, and still want to continue a program, consider asking around at other local educational institutions, even two-year or community colleges. They're potentially eligible.

---
Michael Jones
Coordinator, Student Project Teams, College of Engineering

Cornell Racing
http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu

[PatClarke]

Hi guys,
Effing and blinding on a public forum does your cause no favours!
Pat

Rudeness is a weak mans imitation of strength

[Boberoni]

The only thing I have to say is don't quit.
Everything we do in life has some risk, and liability involved. In the real world problems are solved so that in the end there is still a paycheck coming in.

SAE, ASME, and SME projects are hands-on
design and manufacturing work. I refer to working on our FSAE car "studying" because I'm applying real world skills to get it done.

Engineers are the means to solving a problem. You have to prove to the administration that with a solid plan in place these teams whether it be FSAE, Baja, Clean Snowmobile, Future Truck or whatever, all have an priceless benefit to the students.

*Experience *

[This message was edited by Boberoni on November 05, 2003 at 02:28 PM.]

[Michael Jones]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Boberoni:
Engineers are the means to solving a problem. You have to prove to the administration that with a solid plan in place these teams whether it be FSAE, Baja, Clean Snowmobile, Future Truck or whatever, all have an priceless benefit to the students.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed 100%. On that it is helpful to build support as broadly as possible. The more faculty members engaged in project team work, the less likely people will balk at any particular project and its antics, unless the offense is serious.

It also helps to build support at a broader (faculty/college) level simultaneously.

We're actually comparatively blessed here at Cornell on these fronts - not only are there a number of effective project teams but there is increased attention to and support for these teams at the College level.

Hence my job - I basically try to keep everyone's safety and administration concerns at bay while helping teams with project management, teambuilding, systems engineering, etc. It's a great gig, really - similar to what I was doing with FSAE for the last couple of years, but with other teams too (Baja, Solar Decathlon, Robocup, etc.) They all share similar concerns and challenges at one level, and also similar benefits. It helps that more people realize this benefit and support the effort.

---
Michael Jones
Coordinator, Student Project Teams, College of Engineering

Cornell Racing
http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu

[Boberoni]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Michael Jones:
Hence my job - I basically try to keep everyone's safety and administration concerns at bay while helping teams with project management, teambuilding, systems engineering, etc. It's a great gig, really - similar to what I was doing with FSAE for the last couple of years, but with other teams too (Baja, Solar Decathlon, Robocup, etc.) They all share similar concerns and challenges at one level, and also similar benefits. It helps that more people realize this benefit and support the effort.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mike,

Could you share with us how you came to get this job. We have an individual at Michigan Tech who fills a similar role for the vehicle teams here although that person has done a lot to cut down the competitiveness of our teams. A very nice person non-the-less but has a seemingly different objective than winning. (something about the 'learning process' has to come first) Cornell on the other hand is very good at what they do. It would be interesting to note the difference.