Yamaha R6 users, what do you use for ignition?

[Angry Joe]

We're running a '99 Yamaha R6 this year with a Haltech ECU, and we've heard of people having issues with the stock coils having insufficient spark at high RPM. Those of you who have sucessfully used this engine, are you using the stock coils? What ignition modules are you using? Any info would be very much appreciated.

Lehigh Formula SAE

www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula (http://www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula)

[Spike]

I do not think that the stock coils are the problem. I would look elsewhere if you're having a high RPM ignition problem. AMA Supersport teams make close to 130hp with stock coils. They can't swap them for aftermarket ones, and Yamaha doesn't make any "kit"� coils for the R6. So they have to be stock.

[Eric Wort]

If you end up having problems, check your ignition dwell. You should try starting around 2-3ms, but you could increase it up to around 10ms if you have misfire problems(may have problems melting coils though), or you could decrease it below 3ms to save on current draw.

Eric Wort

[Dominic Venieri]

You could use an MSD coil. I've seen some teams running F4i's use the Honda black box for their fuel map and run an MSD ignition box.

www.formularpi.com (http://www.formularpi.com)

[Oscar Gonzalez]

Are you R6 users running the factory CDI module in conjunction to the haltec/motec/etc? The CDI coil over plugs can't be fired directly from the ECU right?

[Angry Joe]

We are using Bosch ignition modules, I don't have the exact model handy at the moment. And yes we are using the factory coil-over-plug setup

Lehigh Formula SAE

www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula (http://www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula)

[Eric Wort]

We use the stock Honda coil overs on our F4 along with a GM ignition driver for some GM V6 car (not sure of the part number or which car, we purchased several of these from MoTec a few years back). This setup has no problem revving past 13,500rpm on either the MoTec or our engine controller running a dwell of about 3ms on the MoTec and ~1ms on our controller.

Eric Wort
UIUC Formula SAE (http://dilbert.cen.uiuc.edu/soc/sae/formula/)

[Angry Joe]

Ugh... ignition problems are rearing their ugly head as I expected. When we start the engine it is frequently running on 2-3 cylinders for the first few minutes of operation. We're also fouling plugs ridiculously easily.

I'm trying to get the specs on the Bosch ignition modules we have, but no luck so far.

Lehigh Formula SAE

www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula (http://www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula)

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

If you are fouling plugs are you sure that ignition is the problem? I have seen overly rich mixtures cause this exact problem. If fouling remains a problem, even with lean mixtures, try using a hotter plug. The restriction you are running sometimes allows less heat to build in the cylinders.

We have also run F4 and F4Is with stock coils that start fine and pull up to 13k.

Also, what does your manifold look like and how are the injectors firing? Can you adjust the fuel from bank to bank? I would be happy to try to help if you wanted to give me a call.

Brian Lewis
Performance Electronics, Ltd.
"Complete Engine Management Systems for $760"
www.pe-ltd.com (http://www.pe-ltd.com)
(513) 777-5233

[Angry Joe]

An overly rich mixture could be part of the problem. But then, we also usually have to choke the engine on startup. We also just discovered our charging system was wired incorrectly. That may or may not explain why we are having these problems now, or why we had them on the previous car.

Currently we are using multipoint firing, mainly because I'm not experienced at tuning and that's what the manual reccomends. The Haltech can't handle sequential firing at the moment, but we're considering batch-firing. Here's a picture of the plenum and runners we are running now (from the previous car). We're designing new intake parts right now.

http://www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula/images/2001/smintake2.jpg

Lehigh Formula SAE

www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula (http://www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula)

[shecky]

Bosch ignition modules? Are they CDI modules or inductive modules? I couldn't find anything shy of the MSD DIS2 to drive those coils correctly. Those coils are made to accept 400+ volts because they are true CDI coils. Thus, the resistance is much higher than a standard coil. Running an inductive module through those coils would limit your spark capability.

Ron
UDSAE
http://udel.edu/stu-org/udsae/fsae/

[B Lewis @ PE Engine Management]

Angry Joe,

Sequential vs. batch won't help one bit.

The manifold looks ok to me. The reason that I asked is because I have seen 4-cyl manifolds designed with all of the injector bosses in the plenum rather than in the runners. In that configuration, depending on how the injectors fire, most of the fuel could be going to only two cylinders.

Also, take a look at the injector size that you have and the minimum open time that you are asking them to open. You may just be dumping a ton fuel at idle because the injectors won't respond well at low pulsewidths.

How are you tuning this beast? Do you have a dyno?


Brian Lewis
Performance Electronics, Ltd.
"Complete Engine Management Systems for $760"
www.pe-ltd.com (http://www.pe-ltd.com)

[Angry Joe]

We have a manual water-break engine dyno for tuning. Our injectors are from a Kawasaki 750cc bike. I know that sequential injection won't solve our problem, but in the right hands it could help our fuel economy. At our current state of tuning experience, however, I'm content not to mess with it.

We decided to circumvent the ignition problem completely and get a Yamaha ECU (which has build-in ignition modules) to handle the ignition, while the Haltech does fuel. Not an ideal solution, but I'd rather have a solution that I know will work.

Lehigh Formula SAE

www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula (http://www.lehigh.edu/~insae/formula)

[mason]

there is a ignition wiring diagram for wiring the motec ecu up to a yamaha R7 (same CDI coil over plugs as the R6)... but it still requires the use of the stock R6/R7 CDI module...

check out
www.motec.com.au/drawings/m43.pdf (http://www.motec.com.au/drawings/m43.pdf)

probably not super helpful if your not running a motec ecu though...

we're still trying to source out some CDI coil igniters but no luck so far

-john mason
chief engineer engine team
Cal State University Northridge
www.ecs.csun.edu/fsae (http://www.ecs.csun.edu/fsae)