FSAE Australia : On thin ice.

[Kirby]

For those who haven't received this yet. I'm sure its just a matter of time:


To All Potential Entrant Universities

Following on from the great success of Formula SAE-A 2008 we are pleased to advise that this year’s event is scheduled to run over the 4 day period Thursday December 10 thru to Sunday December 13 at the Victorian University Industrial Skill Centre Werribee, Victoria.

2009 will be the first year Formula SAE-A will be open to both conventional fuelled vehicles as well as units calibrated to run and operate on Ethanol based fuel. In addition, invitations are also extended to Universities wishing to display any electric powered vehicles developed throughout 2009. It is not intended to include an electric vehicle competition category for 2009 but dependant on the interest expressed consideration will definitely be given to the creation of this competition category in coming years.

Formula SAE-A 2008 attracted entrants from 17 Universities all around Australia as well as 7 very competitive entrants from overseas. The number and quality of last years entrants gives an indication of the excellent reputation this even has gathered amongst University campuses over the number of years Formula has been hosted and run by SAE-A and we intend to continue on building and expanding the program through the introduction of alternate fuel and / or energy categories going forward.

For those who have competed or attended past Formula events it will come as no surprise to be informed that the SAE-A budget required to run such a large quality event is quite substantial. Given that SAE-A is a not for profit organisation we have in the past relied heavily upon the fantastic financial support extended by a consortium of Australian Vehicle Manufacturers i.e. GM Holden, Ford, Toyota and Mitsubishi along with additional financial and services in kind support received from a number of other contributors. In this regard, 2009 is proving to be a particularly challenging year for SAE-A as our major past supporters, i.e. the Australian vehicle consortium, are all finding it exceedingly difficult to allocate sponsorship funding for this very worthwhile event in 2009. All agree on the absolute importance of the event in supporting the development of young engineers for the local industry in the longer term but are understandable facing extreme pressures from their own overseas parent companies to trim operational costs and to generally cut back sponsorships in areas considered non essential to the running of the local operations.

In recognition of the difficulties facing the industry over the coming year SAE-A has been working extremely hard since February 2009 to attract additional funding support from all possible sources, both government and non government. Unfortunately, the Global Financial Crisis is affecting all businesses and hence attracting new sponsorship for Formula SAE-A 2009 is proving to be an extremely difficult task.

SAE-A, with the support and encouragement of the local automotive industry is determined to ensure that Formula SAE-A 2009 proceeds and builds on its reputation as a quality event. For this reason we have spent quite a deal of time reviewing every cost associated with the running of past events in order to seek cost savings where possible but without wishing to in any way compromise the integrity of Formula SAE-A.

Although we are working towards a fully sponsored Event this year, we need to also consider the possibility of the Event being “self funded”. As a result we seek your comment & advice regarding the option that would see an increase in the Entry Fee paid by the participating Universities which in turn, would go toward the running of the Event accordingly. By our estimation, the revised Entrance Fee would need to be in the order of $7,250 per vehicle entry. We understand that this would represent quite a significant increase over past years but, given the well publicized current global financial crisis it may be that SAE-A has no alternative if the Event is to be staged this year & to ensure the ongoing value, integrity and viability of the Australian Formula SAE-A event.

To enable SAE-A to be in a position to consider all options, please advise your comments & ability to participate should it be necessary for SAE-A to introduce the above stated increased participation fee in order to see this event proceed in 2009. Your response to the undersigned would be appreciated by Wednesday May 13, 2009

I think that $7,250 could kill a lot of teams. Taking the competition with it. We are (I think?) the smallest F-SAE competition in the world, we've had trouble getting competitors previously.

Where does this leave us now?

[Kirby]

For those who haven't received this yet. I'm sure its just a matter of time:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">To All Potential Entrant Universities

Following on from the great success of Formula SAE-A 2008 we are pleased to advise that this year’s event is scheduled to run over the 4 day period Thursday December 10 thru to Sunday December 13 at the Victorian University Industrial Skill Centre Werribee, Victoria.

2009 will be the first year Formula SAE-A will be open to both conventional fuelled vehicles as well as units calibrated to run and operate on Ethanol based fuel. In addition, invitations are also extended to Universities wishing to display any electric powered vehicles developed throughout 2009. It is not intended to include an electric vehicle competition category for 2009 but dependant on the interest expressed consideration will definitely be given to the creation of this competition category in coming years.

Formula SAE-A 2008 attracted entrants from 17 Universities all around Australia as well as 7 very competitive entrants from overseas. The number and quality of last years entrants gives an indication of the excellent reputation this even has gathered amongst University campuses over the number of years Formula has been hosted and run by SAE-A and we intend to continue on building and expanding the program through the introduction of alternate fuel and / or energy categories going forward.

For those who have competed or attended past Formula events it will come as no surprise to be informed that the SAE-A budget required to run such a large quality event is quite substantial. Given that SAE-A is a not for profit organisation we have in the past relied heavily upon the fantastic financial support extended by a consortium of Australian Vehicle Manufacturers i.e. GM Holden, Ford, Toyota and Mitsubishi along with additional financial and services in kind support received from a number of other contributors. In this regard, 2009 is proving to be a particularly challenging year for SAE-A as our major past supporters, i.e. the Australian vehicle consortium, are all finding it exceedingly difficult to allocate sponsorship funding for this very worthwhile event in 2009. All agree on the absolute importance of the event in supporting the development of young engineers for the local industry in the longer term but are understandable facing extreme pressures from their own overseas parent companies to trim operational costs and to generally cut back sponsorships in areas considered non essential to the running of the local operations.

In recognition of the difficulties facing the industry over the coming year SAE-A has been working extremely hard since February 2009 to attract additional funding support from all possible sources, both government and non government. Unfortunately, the Global Financial Crisis is affecting all businesses and hence attracting new sponsorship for Formula SAE-A 2009 is proving to be an extremely difficult task.

SAE-A, with the support and encouragement of the local automotive industry is determined to ensure that Formula SAE-A 2009 proceeds and builds on its reputation as a quality event. For this reason we have spent quite a deal of time reviewing every cost associated with the running of past events in order to seek cost savings where possible but without wishing to in any way compromise the integrity of Formula SAE-A.

Although we are working towards a fully sponsored Event this year, we need to also consider the possibility of the Event being “self funded”. As a result we seek your comment & advice regarding the option that would see an increase in the Entry Fee paid by the participating Universities which in turn, would go toward the running of the Event accordingly. By our estimation, the revised Entrance Fee would need to be in the order of $7,250 per vehicle entry. We understand that this would represent quite a significant increase over past years but, given the well publicized current global financial crisis it may be that SAE-A has no alternative if the Event is to be staged this year & to ensure the ongoing value, integrity and viability of the Australian Formula SAE-A event.

To enable SAE-A to be in a position to consider all options, please advise your comments & ability to participate should it be necessary for SAE-A to introduce the above stated increased participation fee in order to see this event proceed in 2009. Your response to the undersigned would be appreciated by Wednesday May 13, 2009 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that $7,250 could kill a lot of teams. Taking the competition with it. We are (I think?) the smallest F-SAE competition in the world, we've had trouble getting competitors previously.

Where does this leave us now?

[Thomas MuWe]

7250$ - that's 4000 Euro for the european Teams.
Last year we thought about participating in Australia but failed to decide on time to register.
But a short overview of costs for teams from Europe showed us that a trip to Detroit/US is less expansive (to say the least). I think in the last 3 years at least one team from Europe participated and there were very exicted about the event and the country.
I think such a high entrance fee would give all potential european participants a head shot for this trip.
I did not meet a Australian team at competition and I do not know anything about their financial background, so I can not say how much 7k is for them. For me it sounds pretty much.
Hopefully they will find cheaper way for the teams to launch the event.

I can not hear anymore the words global financial crisis....
Best regards from Graz,
Thomas

[FStotal.com]

Where's a will, there's a way!

[MalcolmG]

It will be very sad if it comes to the point where fees are that high, because I agree - it will cut the numbers down significantly. I suspect a lot of teams would have to operate on a 2 year cycle, which in my opinion is a bad way for teams to go. Some might even fold completely (I know at least one team for whom that is more than their annual budget). For us (and other international teams), who already have the expenses of freighting the car back and forth to Australia, that kind of increase would severely hurt our ability to produce a car and compete every year.

It's a shame to see companies making short-sighted cost-cutting measures like this, I really hope SAE-A is able to secure some form of corporate backing.

[brettd]

If you ignore the accomodation and transport costs for team members themselves, a figure like that makes competitions in other countries become a lot more attractive.

[Kirby]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by brettd:
If you ignore the accomodation and transport costs for team members themselves, a figure like that makes competitions in other countries become a lot more attractive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My thoughts exactly.

[Bemo]

Perhabs the organizers forget the fact that they are not the only ones who have problems to find sponsors.

I can only say that we definitely wouldn't have taken part last year if the fee would have been that high.

[Garlic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bemo:
Perhabs the organizers forget the fact that they are not the only ones who have problems to find sponsors. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you suggest? They cannot pull money from the nearby stream. Saying they haven't considered the impact is slighting SAE-A. I'm sure this is a last resort. Either run the competition with the higher fees, or don't run it at all.

Considering this, I'd expect the Detroit 2010 competition to have a similar fee increase. After all, Ford and GM are the reason for SAE-A's increase and we all know Chrysler isn't in a position to fill in for them! The 2009 donations were likely already given...

[Yellow Ranger]

We were talking about this very thing for about 20 mins with Steve Daum at VIR. He said that finding sponsors is getting really tough, and may have to require teams to supply members to work corners (like a real autocross)... Apparently by this time last year, he had already had more than enough volunteers provided by companies to help with the events, however, this year, it's not looking good for MIS.

Same goes with funding for the event. He said the track rental for the California event is around $100,000 and then there's insurance (which we know must be a ton) and of course finding volunteers for the event is still a bit sketchy. They're trying like hell find ways to pay for these events, but he fully understands that all teams are financially hurting, as he's gotten a lot of calls from teams saying they just can't afford to come...

An increase in registration fees for next year is a given- how much is up to how well they can find new sponsors. They are even considering doing a competition every other year, just to save on costs, and to help get more teams out.

Of course this is the situation in the states, hopefully something reasonable can be figured out among all the international competitions.

[Mike Cook]

Where there is a will there is a way.....

sure,

But, there has to be ways to cut costs. Most teams have figured out ways to cut costs this year, sae needs to figure out some ways as well (not that they haven't).

Some thoughts:

Can the competition be held at a local university where the lot rental would be next to nothing and only insurance would need to be covered?

I know that lot rentals at Fed Ex field are way less than some of the numbers quoted in this thread. There has to be a way.

Can the first two days be held off site so big lot rentals would be kept to a minimum? Start the competition on tuesday and have tech on tue/wed, static events on wed, skidpad/accel on thursday (all at a local uni), then rent a big lot on friday and have autocross and endurance all in one day.

Just some thoughts. Oh, and go capitals!

[Yellow Ranger]

Good idea- I never thought about that... go back to the old style, have a university host it, that would save an unbelievable amount of money! I know its cool having the event at an actual facility, but compared to the silverdome and ford proving grounds, a campus wouldn't be that bad...

[rjwoods77]

Mike,

Most Mini Baja competitions run this way. Only problem is that part of the catch is you are not able to drive the vehicles until you are on competition grounds. Will suck for the unprepared but would sure cut down cost of rental and liability of tracks.

[Kirby]

FSAE-A is held at the Victoria University Vehicle Proving grounds.
Not exactly sure on the specifics, but i'm sure the price is reasonable.

[Moke]

I would think the major costs would be the tents used for the pits, hire of cones and barriers plus things like the generators and porta loos.

We have always made team members pay for the trip to the comp, which can be around $NZ1000, themselves. This will make it much harder to get to comp each year.

I don't want to sound like a dick from a team that preforms well but ...

I guess on the upside it could reduce the number sub par cars each year and teams could focus on producing a high quality car every second year. Done right a car with 6mth design, 6mth build and 12mth testing would be very competitive.

PS: Kinda sad it didn't happen last year, as without Stuttgart we all could have had a chance. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[stc]

What do students want? -&gt; knowledge, jobs, contacts, workshops, fun, racing, ...

Some ideas from a short brainstorming:

Do researches for cheaper racing tracks. But do not go back to university for competitions!

Staff:
- There are a lot of great FSAE alumni s who got`s great knowledge they can work as judge.
- Best preparation for new FSAE teammembers is working as volunteers at the competition. They know the event, teams, cars, organisers, location, sponsors, ... . Better preparations for their first FSAE year they can not get.

Sponsors
- No logos at some competition websites? Would you pay so much for something what is in past after 4 days?
- Don`t only wait for the big company's, there are a lot small companies looking for students.
- Give the sponsors a place to present themselves. Company fair, speeches, ...
- Ask the sponsors if they want offer jobs, job application trainings, assessment centre, ....
- Offer a live stream you can place some sponsors.

press:
- Invite all relevant press(tv, radio, magazines, web). Maybe you can also win one of the big tv-team for a 1h documentation from the event.
- Please have a look at the last competitions at VIR, Australasia, Japan! How much and when did you see first press articles, pictures, videos, statements, results, ...?
- 500$ award for the team which do the best reports during the event at their team website. It´s all advertisement for the competition! Fast and stable web is required!
- Celebrities! Ross Brawn (Brawn GP F1)at FS or Mario Theissen (BMW F1) at FSG that was great. I will never forget the laps with tufast and Esslingens car at FSG 2008 from Bernd Schneider and Mike Rockenfeller (both popular German DTM driver).

merchandise/entertainment:
- 3$ for a programme magazine with all teams and some competitions news would pay almost every visitor.
- Sell a competition Shirt. I think every teammember will buy at least one! Place for Sponsors!
- Trust me students want to increase their knowledge. 5$ per person for a useful speech is not as much when their next car is running much more better. Presentations could be make during competitions by judges, sponsors, alumni´s, and team members.
- Offer a team challenge! E.g. built a car wich can only be driven when 4 people work as a team. One is responsible for steering, one for acceleration, one for braking another for shifting. Much fun while driving a narrow parcour + 5$ more for the event who will test it. Advertising opportunities on the car!
- With more advertising(press) + entertainment they come more visitors and the competition gets more money.
- Use the track for some spectacular things between the races.
- Every teammember and visitor wants to take a ride at the track. Offer 2 racing simulators for some fast laps(identical with real track + car!). 2$ more per drive for the event.
- Make a aftershowparty and sell some drinks and food for a student friendly price.

Surely not all ideas are the best, but they show approaches.

Watch the teams, they never give up and looking every day for solutions to solve problems!

[woodsy96]

- A twilight autocross. We did some testing at Silhouette Karts on the Wednesday(?) night before comp, along with Monash and I think Swinbourne. The cars were so much more awesome to watch, and the glamour factor is badass.

I don't know how well the comp was advertised to the general public, but a night event would make it way more attractive and the cars would look infinitely better (faster, more glamourous with reflecting light, more exhileratingas you can see sparks and backfire flames better)

[elecia_douglas]

Perhaps it might be a viable option for teams who are on tight budgets to run their 2008 two years in a row at the 2009 competition. Thus - not spending their small budgets on a compeltely new vehicle - then allowing to cover competition costs.

Although running second year cars has incured a 150 point penalty in the past - and obviously 2008 vehicles won't comply with new chassis rules etc - maybe long term, it will ensure the competition's sustainability and still allow for teams with zero $$ to enter.

A suggestion for FSAE - maybe they could relax the rules and negate the 150 point penalty for second year cars?

Just a thought...

[Brian_Mcavaney]

That's a good idea on merit, but I would have to think that a rule like wouldnt help like it should. Teams (like mine) who are on a tight budget often re-use a majority of parts from previous cars. Those already halfway through building lose out.

[Isn't it Obvious?!]

For those of you who regularly compete at the FSAE-A event, I'm truly sorry to hear the news regarding the current competition's situation.

For a competitor in the states like myself, I've become increasingly frustrated with the choice of venue for the competitions. Before any further comment, I would like to say the VIR is an exception to both MIS and the Fontana competition! Its superior course layout, availability of camping, 24 hour paddock area, and the addition of professional race series on the full course makes it fantastic!

After hearing Yellow Ranger quote that SAE pays $100,000 for California Speedway I can only hope your wrong! It seems like the need to have the event at a "real" race track outweighs the need to have a great and accessible event. California in particular is frustrating because the course organizers are forced to make a track from small service roads in the infield, while acres of unimpeded parking lots wait just outside the gates. In addition, the spectator area is poor as well. Sure, it’s nice to use the NASCAR garages for tech, and design, but I think everybody would have a better time if we put more of an emphasis on the course layouts, and the opportunity for the other 99% of teams’ members and parents who don't get to enter the dynamic areas to get closer to the action.

My personal suggestion is for the Formula SAE events to be held at some of the top karting facilities across the country. Here you'll find more than ample paddock space, a fantastic track that would require minimal modification for FSAE, fantastic spectator viewing, most likely a 24hr paddock, and maybe even a concession stand! I think the accessibility of the facilities would prove to be a competitor and observer favorite, as well as being SIGNIFIGANTLY cheaper than one of those "real" race tracks to rent.

In an attempt to refrain from sounding too negative, I would like to say that the events the SAE puts on are first class, and are the highlights of my college career! It also looks as though some of the competitions held in Europe, such as England and Germany are held at a similar facility but with much more satisfying results. Perhaps some of you who have attended both those in Europe and in the States could chime in….

In a nutshell…..let’s put more emphasis on the event itself rather than its location, and enjoy some of the resulting money saving in the process!

[rjwoods77]

That sounds like a great idea. The more well to do tracks have really nice surfaces to race on as well.

[FSAE Competitor]

Has anyone thought of maybe the teams organising their own event down under? Maybe take back control of the whole thing?

[RacingManiac]

Personally I love the Romeo proving ground deal before. Aside from the really long(and uphill returning) push the car to the dynamic area, the place is big and can really make interesting courses, as well as a prestine running surface. The problem I guess was spectator access since they aren't allowed in the pad. But the proving ground rental has to be pretty darn expensive considering now I am working in the area and the cost of bringing a test vehicle there to use cost quite a bit of money. Occupying for half a week must have been costly. I think back in the day when the OEMs sees it as an investment for their future engineer it was probably easier to justify, and seeing how all 3 have testing facility for the event I thought it would've made sense to rotate between their facilities. But these days that seems increasingly less likely due to all the penny pinching going on. The racing track venues have the draw of the location, but most facilities are not really suited for this kind of event.

[exFSAE]

That's roughly $5400 USD entry fee. Good lord.

Bake sale?

[Stocky Fast 1]

Just this past week at Michigan our team was talking about this as well as the VIR event cancellation. A few of the older team members mentioned how nice it was back at the Silverdome in Detroit for that comp. with 24hr paddock and close hotels. I don't know much about FSAE Australia but at least in the US the Silverdome is just sitting there and the parking lot is unused. It would almost be cheaper for SAE to buy the lot and put up a few building for design and tech and just run from there every year.

[Chris Lane]

Some thoughts I've had while reading this thread:
- Cut insurance costs by asking CAMS to subsidise everything.
- Allowing second-year cars without points penalty. This allows car development to occur within teams (valuable engineering skills) and cost cutting for teams and universities with a two-year high/low expenditure cycle.
- Like others have been saying, run the event in a vacant parking lot. Put up marquees for everything.

Another possible avenue to explore if the FSAE-A event becomes prohibitively expensive, is for the SAE-A to subsidise the freight and travel costs for teams to overseas competitions. It'll cost the same to them, and the Aussie industries still get their graduates.

[Hudson]

There has been some progres made on this issue over the past month.

Several of the Victorian based team have met and discussed the situation and provided a range of alternatives and potential solutions to the SAE-A.

I will post up more info when it is confirmed.

I would like to thank the Monash team for coordinating the discussions with SAE.

[Kirby]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hudson:
There has been some progres made on this issue over the past month.

Several of the Victorian based team have met and discussed the situation and provided a range of alternatives and potential solutions to the SAE-A.

I will post up more info when it is confirmed.

I would like to thank the Monash team for coordinating the discussions with SAE. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think most teams have now seen the newsletter from Marissa.

What are the thoughts on this all?

I personally think there needs to be a higher level of team communication from all Australian teams.

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[Jon Oneill]

As most of the australian teams know, we have struggled with budget and results in the past. A 2 year build is ideal but if the price change is introduced during the final stages of purchasing, where does the money come from to cover the increase?
The event price increase would equate to the majority of our teams budget. A budget that was dispersed according to the old competition costs. We will most definetly struggle to raise the funds to enter this year as a result, which is disapointing for everyone involved.
A price increase such as this also places many FSAE teams into risk of being disolved by there universities.

Considerable cost reductions for teams could be achieved by creating a no-frills event where teams bring there own tents to work within.
Providing camping areas would also considerable reduce costs for interstate teams and I'm sure everyone agree's there is plenty of space available for this within victoria universities grounds.

[MalcolmG]

So, now that the fees have been semi-confirmed at $5,000 AUS, how is everyone feeling?

They stated that is based on 20 teams attending, which is what, 3 down on 2008? I'm sure the organisers are trying hard, but unfortunately I don't see anywhere near 20 teams making it at that cost, and what kind of competition would it be with 10-15 cars? I'm really disappointed that the consortium has pulled its funding, it seems short sighted as it really does look like it could spell the end of the competition in the next year or two

[Hudson]

It is a large increase and it is going to be difficult to absorb. We looked at our budgets today and some major items will not be purchased in order to fund the increased entry fee.

At a recent Victorian FSAE teams night there was some promising disucssion on efforts to share resources better between FSAE teams. I do see this as a valid option to reduce the costs at our end.


Cameron Hudson
The University of Melbourne

[plohl]

so, entry is up... who's going? $5000 is better then the earlier number, but still steep. I wonder how much this will effect entry from overseas competitors.

[woodsy96]

We will be attending again this year.

It seems that increasing costs are affecting other competitions as well. I feel that this could see a drop in teams attending other competitions other than their main one for the bigger budget teams, and smaller budget teams struggling to build a car at all after raising the funds for entry fee or possibly changing to a 2 year scheme.

[benny41]

Deakin is not entering a team this year mainly due to a lack of team members . Plans are in place for 2010 and we hope to be back bigger and stronger than ever

[MalcolmG]

That's disappointing, I was always fond of the cars you've brought in the past, and you were good dudes in 2007, putting up with us fixing our broken car in/outside your workshop while you prepared for comp http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Brett Neale]

Damn that's sad to hear Deakin, your sidewinders have always brought a flavour of originality to FSAE-A! Hopefully a two-year project can work out for your team and you can come back bigger and better in 2010.

[meets]

ADFA have confirmed we'll be going. Just need to get a car together now...

As an aside, I (jokingly) mentioned to Marissa about the possibility of the team bringing a bunch of khaki tents with us. Unfortunately that won't be happening, but we will have an abundance of sandbags in case it rains http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[bmw.williams1]

UOW will be there. And I'm sorry to here about that Deakin, good luck for next year. Are there any other uni's that will not be attending?

Marissa said that 26 teams have showed interest, which is two down on the amount that competed last year (27 registered I believe). So it could end up with 15 teams competing. I think it will still be a competitive competition, it's just disappointing that there will be less international teams than usual.

[Bemo]

We won't come back this year. We had a great time in Australia last year, but it was incredible expensive for us.
If we'll go to an overseas competition (what isn't sure at the moment) with our 09-car we'll go to Michigan. It is much bigger and going to the US is much cheaper than Australia from Europe.
So good luck for your new cars. Hope to see some of you at a competition somewhere in the world next year.

[Jon Oneill]

We'll be there this year for sure. We've found the money to enter due to the generosity of some of our major sponsors.

Now that thats settled, lets finish this car and get it on the track. See you all in melbourne.

[Mark_W]

i just had an email from optimum g advertising for a vehicle dynamics seminar in melbourne...

"Vehicle Dynamics and Race Car Engineering Seminar

in Melbourne, Australia December 14th-16th after the FSAE Australia Competition

by Claude Rouelle, president of OptimumG"

expected to see Claude judging!