Motec - Crank Index Position degreeing (trigger wheel pickup, etc)

[A Reinke]

for you guys using a Motec ECU, and a stock trigger wheel/gear. what is your degree setting for (criP) Crank Index Position?

we run a 2001 Suzuki with the stock trigger wheel and i have the criP set to 470 degrees. i'm curious what other engines run, and if any other Suzuki guys are using.

thanks,

~Adam

PS: if you forgot where this is at, under the motec adjust, general setup, main setup.

[MoTeC]

Hi Guys,
As i said in another post if you want to get the animation software for setting CRIP values just down load the MoTeC Interpreter software from our web site, www.motec.com.au (http://www.motec.com.au) (it's free). Look in Start/Programs/Motec.

Mark McCoy/Donna Arbuckle

[Frank]

setting the crip is analougous to "setting the timing" on a car with a distributer

Frank

[A Reinke]

well we see it as if you have the criP advanced or retarded the whole ignition and injection will be advanced or retarded.

Motec, do you have a number from any Suzuki GSXR 600's that you can share with us? like i said, we estimated, and used 470 degrees, but we're definitly not sure of that.

~Adam

[A Reinke]

Motec, please explain what i'm supposed to do with the Interpreter software. I've installed it, and i'm sitting here staring at it...

i'm still lookign for others running a Motec and what you are using for a criP value.

~Adam

[Dan Deussen @ Weber Motor]

Try the following:
1) Take a timing light and hook it up to cylinder 1 and unplug the injectors and coils.
2) Set the spark advance in the Motec to 0 degrees.
3) Take out the spark plugs so when you crank the engine it spins at a constant speed.
4) Take the small and large plugs out of the starter clutch cover on the right side of the engine.
5) Use a 14mm socket and ratchet and turn the engine over clockwise until you see the timing mark line up with the notch in the small inspection hole. This is the mark that you will be looking for with the timing light.
6) Hold the timing light onto the small inspection hole and crank the engine over. If your criP value is right, the timing mark will line up with the notch in the cover when the timing light flashes.
7) If it does not line up, keep changing the criP value untill the marks line up.

I hope this helps.

Daniel Deussen
www.walbro-italy.com (http://www.walbro-italy.com)

[A Reinke]

interesting, and hopefully effective idea, Dan.

~Adam

[Eric Wort]

Are you running a batch fire system or a sequential system?

The MoTec has a special mode that holds the timing advance constant for setting the CrIP. Of course, I don't remember where thats at off-hand. Also, the crip doesn't have to be accurate to the degree, but just accurate to the nearest tooth.

Eric Wort
UIUC Formula SAE (http://dilbert.cen.uiuc.edu/soc/sae/formula/)

[This message was edited by Eric Wort on December 17, 2003 at 10:50 PM.]

[madhay]

The crip does need to be accurate to the degree! It is very easy to set by following Dan Deussen instuctions. Go into Ignition/Crank Index Position. You may set the test advance to zero or to the degree of any other convenient timing mark that you may have. Then change the number until your reference tooth lines up with the mark using a timing light. Piece of Cake! It only took me about 6 months to figure that out!!

Cheers

[A Reinke]

so the test advance will move the 'fire' for the criP until you get it dialed in perfectly?

if we are off by a few at 470 degrees (for example) and we use the timing light method and use the test advance to get it set right, will that be permanent?

or do we add/subtract the test advance to the original criP value we were using?

~Adam

[madhay]

set the test advance to one of your timing marks, say 10 degrees. You don't want to change this, keep it exactly the value from BTDC of your timing mark. While you are in the Crank Index Position screen the timing is locked to the value of the test advance regardless of your ignition map. Now using the timing light adjust the crip until your marks line up. There a few precautions to follow under the help menu. Good Luck.

[A Reinke]

okay, i found the crank index position thing you are talking about...my question is about what Dan said:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>1) Take a timing light and hook it up to cylinder 1 and unplug the injectors and coils.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

how is it gonna spark if i unplug the coil?

so if i follow this correctly,

1. set crank index position timing to 0 (locked)
2. timing light on #1
3. rotate engine over and watch for timing mark to line up with notch in case.
4. light should flash when lined up, if the criP value is correct.

5. if i adjust the crank index position timing value + or - it will help me fine tune how far off the criP is, right?

~Adam

[MoTeC]

Thanks Madhay,
you are correct. The Crip value is used as the reference point for the ECU to do all it's calculations for timing (ignition, injector timing etc). If the crip is out 10 degrees yout timing will be out 10 degrees.

Go to Ignition, Crank index position and set a test advance like 0 (firing at TDC) or 10 if you have a maker. With the engine cranking you can use your timing light (obviously the ECU needs to be "synced") to see if the actual timing is what the "locked" test advance is.

If you test advance says 10 BTDC and the timing light shows 5 BTDC your crip is 5 degrees too BIG, if the timing light shows 15 BTDC your crip is 5 degrees too small.

Mark McCoy/Donna Arbuckle

[Eric Wort]

The only reason you need it to be accurate to the degree is if you care about your timing values being spot on with that you're typing in. These engines are all a one-off intake-exhaust design, and each one should have its own dyno tuned fuel/igntion maps. If you took your ignition map from something else, then yes the CRIP matters to the degree, but if you're rolling your own, it doesn't have to be 100% accurate.

Although, I will admit that I was thinking of our own ECU when I said that, as it just uses the cam sensor to tell the ECU which tooth is #1 on a two rotation cycle. Timing is then calculated off of the tooth positions directly. I guess the MoTec must use the CRIP to also calculate the tooth offset from TDC to make up for designs that don't align teeth on cylinder firings.

Eric Wort
UIUC Formula SAE (http://dilbert.cen.uiuc.edu/soc/sae/formula/)

[Eric Wort]

Also, we've never bothered to set the timing to the degree because we never had a timing light that would work with coil-over ignition. We ended up making one that fires off of the TTL signal from the ECU to the ignition coil drivers.

Eric Wort
UIUC Formula SAE (http://dilbert.cen.uiuc.edu/soc/sae/formula/)

[MoTeC]

Also,
I am sorry but I don't have a stack Crip value for stock GSXR. Follow this set of insturction to work it out. VERY IMPORTANT: Follow these instruction step by step, jumping ahead WILL confuse things. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

1: Start with the engine at TDC compression number one cylinder.
2: Wind the engine forward until you get the cam tooth to line up with the cam sensor.
3: At this point the ECU will be armed to look for the next CRANK tooth.
4: Continue to wind the engine forward till the next CRANK tooth lines up with its sensor. be careful it may only be a few degrees, this tooth is now the "index" tooth. For a crank trigger disc with a missing or additional tooth you will be winding the engine forward to the next time you get this missing/additional tooth.
5: At this point the CRIP value represents how far the engine still has to go, still forward, to get back to TDC compression number one.

If you know how far you have turned the engine to get from TDC compression number one to the index tooth (step 4) you can simple minus this number of degrees from 720 to get the same value.

If you have installed MoTeC Interpreter software you should have the MoTec ECU trigger modes animation available.

Mark McCoy/Donna Arbuckle

[A Reinke]

we used that method originally to set the criP value...which seemed to work to some extent. i feel that the engine is too advanced, as we're getting some backfires through the intake on cold starts.

i think setting the Crank Index Position timing to 0, and seeing where the timing mark is should help dial in the criP timing.

~Adam