Rolling an SAE vehicle

[All Wheeler]

Just wondered if anyone out there has seen, heard of, or witnessed first hand ,an SAE vehicle roll on cornering.

[All Wheeler]

Just wondered if anyone out there has seen, heard of, or witnessed first hand ,an SAE vehicle roll on cornering.

[PatClarke]

Yes indeed, as a Design Judge at Formula Student in 2001, we watched open mouthed as the Coventry University car toppled over on the first lap of Enduro. This was the narrow rear track 'trike' they built, and as there is no tilt table at the UK event, they would not accept council from the experienced judges that it would fall over. And fall over it did, fortunately with no injury to anything but their pride.
The outcome was the 'Coventry rule' that specifies the relationship of front and rear tracks.
PDR

Rudeness is a weak mans imitation of strength

[Denny Trimble]

I was sitting in the announcer's vehicle a few weeks ago at the SCCA Autocross National Championships, watching Jane Willis drive UTA's '03 car on course. This venue has a very high grip level (about 1.6g for non-aero cars). Add to that UTA's aero package, a narrow track, and a very strong wind, and we all got a little surprise.

Jane was heading downwind into a 180-degree corner. About 2/3 of the way through the corner, both inside wheels lifted 2 feet off the ground! Must have been the side wind or tail wind... but she recovered nicely and even finished her run in a very respectable time.

I saw the in-car footage afterwards, pretty dramatic. They might post it on their site.

Speaking of drama, check this out:
S2000 Crash (http://members.roadfly.org/stanley_blackwell/s2000crash.mpeg)

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03)

[ben]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Suddenlee:
Yes indeed, as a Design Judge at Formula Student in 2001, we watched open mouthed as the Coventry University car toppled over on the first lap of Enduro. This was the narrow rear track 'trike' they built, and as there is no tilt table at the UK event, they would not accept council from the experienced judges that it would fall over. And fall over it did, fortunately with no injury to anything but their pride.
The outcome was the 'Coventry rule' that specifies the relationship of front and rear tracks.
PDR

Rudeness is a weak mans imitation of strength<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right in front of me as well. Not a pretty site. I seem to rememeber some of Penn State's team getting incredibly irrate that the car wasn't thrown out of the comp for being unsafe.

Ben

University of Birmingham
www.ubracing.co.uk (http://www.ubracing.co.uk)

[gug]

and i agree with the penn state guys! at the moment, safety at these events is still pretty casual. but when cars like that start to come in you begin to get rules like "safety helmets must be worn when you are within 1km of the track".

errrr, let me explain what i mean by casual before someone blasts me and quotes every safety rule in the book. i consider it to be a compliment to us that we are allowed to look after much of our own safety, and it is not any sort of bad comment on safety at the events. i mean it is casual relative to a minesite and the university workshop. we are not allowed to use a hacksaw in the uni workshop, and at the minesite i was forced to where a helmet in the carpark. if something was going to hit me on the head in the carpark, it was coming from a bloody long way up, and i dont quite think a safety hat was going to help...

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.

[awhittle]

I can assure everyone that any crosswind in combination with any wing sideplate that we are willing to use will have no contribution to a car rolling over. Any rollover is purely a function of cg height, coefficient of friction, cornering force, bumps and roll stiffness. I have looked at years of g's data and have seen any no cornering difference in a slalom with any crosswind. Cornering power changes driving into and out of the wind can be huge.
Andy

[PatClarke]

Gug, safety is 'casual' at an FSAE event???
How many have you attended? The safety levels imposed are way beyond what is required for mainstream motorsport at a similar level, and is always under ongoing review.
If you have any specific concerns, you MUST bring them to the attention of the organisers so a review and any corrective action can be taken, rather than cast wild aspersions on here!
The organisers place safety at a premium. As an example, the refusal of the UK organisers to include a tilt table (resulting in the situation where a car rolled on the track) lead directly to the 'Coventry Rule' so that type of accident was less likely to happen.
Lack of attention to detail by organisers will lead to silly rules like you mention at the mine yard, because the insurers will direct so.
PDR

Rudeness is a weak mans imitation of strength

[gug]

noooo! i cant go back and delete that post! damn!
you are completly right Pat, i have not been to any events, and i should not think that i know what goes on because i have seen videos of them.

casual was the wrong word to use there. what i meant is that there are no stupid rules such as "all trackside viewers must wear full fire suits" or "vehicle's speeds must not exceed 100kph, and this must be enforced with laser guns, fines and demerit points on the driver's license".
its always a joy to see the absence of such rules as these (which serve no purpose, will not prevent any accidents and just annoy the hell out of everyone). i think the current rules do an excellent job of insuring everones safety, and i did not mean to cast any aspersions about safety at the event.

[Sam Zimmerman]

Just as a curious question Pat, how are the organizers at enforcing the safety rules? It seems that the safety record is outstanding but I have only been to one event.

How often are injuries reported at these events?

Sam Zimmerman
Vandals Racing (http://www.uidaho.edu/~racing)

[PatClarke]

Hi Sam,
FSAE and FSAE-A have this neat 'Attila the Hun' management system. You either comply with the rules and expected behaviour or you, and possibly (nah, probably) your whole team, will be shown the door.
By its nature, FSAE comp is pretty safe and the entire management team work hard to keep it that way without having rules for rules sake.
However, safety rules don't work without the co-operation of all involved, and thats where Atilla comes in.
Even using power tools without eye protection can see your team on its way home!
As a result, the worst injuries I know of are cuts and bruises and burns usually caused by rushed pit work to do something that should have been completed months before.
At Formula Student, apart from Coventry going 'T over A', a few years ago there was a marshall run down by an errant car. I think he suffered a broken leg.
Injuries sustained at after event parties are unrecorded.
PDR
PS. If you want to see how the system works, light up a cigarette in the pits http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Rudeness is a weak mans imitation of strength

[Frank]

PDR
"PS. If you want to see how the system works, light up a cigarette in the pits"

tried that Pat.... got sprayed with foam by the fire marshall

http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Frank

[Dick Golembiewski]

My last year advising an SAE design group, I encountered something similar:

I brought along a friend, who I had worked with at Harley-Davidson to our first test. He had a bit more experience tuning engines than I did (I'm really a chassis guy - although I do engines too.) and thought he could be a resource. As they were about to fire the engine the first time, and were fueling the car, I reminded the students of a rule that I had established wherein we would always have someone standing by with a fire extinguisher the first time we fired an engine, or after it had been changed. (Too many unknowns and work performed by students who may have been up all night.)

I said, "What do we do whenever we fire up the engine?"

My friend blurted out, "Light up a cigarette!"

We all had a good laugh.

In Detroit, the team decided to fire the engine in the paddock. I yelled out, "What do we do whenever we fire up the engine?"

The entire team yelled back, "Light up a cigarette!"



On another note, I was a student who competed in FSAE's one-off predecessor, Mini-Indy. The cars were really karts. Most of the endurance track consisted of long runs down aisles of a parking lot, with a 180 degree turn at each end. (All you had to do was round the concrete bumper.) That made for some tight hairpin turns. Fortunately, my car handled very well, and could turn VERY tightly.

The University of Missouri - Rolla's entry had a narrow track. It rounded one of the LH hairpins just in front of our car - at a point where I happened to be standing. It rolled up (but not over) and my driver put his right side wheels underneath the raised left side wheels of Rolla's car to pass him. It's something neither of us (he's still a good friend.) has forgotten!

- Dick

[mtg]

Dick,
What year did that incident happen? I've heard of some interesting things happening in my team's history, but I've never heard that story before. Maybe nobody ever talks about it because it involves us being passed http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

www.umr.edu/~formula (http://www.umr.edu/~formula)

[Dick Golembiewski]

The year was 1979 - the only year Mini-Indy ran. It was held at the University of Houston.

- Dick

[UTA racer rikki]

Hello All,

In reference to the UTA '03 car which I am proud to drive yet still unbiased (ok, maybe a little) Jane's bicycling the car was caused by a number of factors.

Yes, the g's sustained at SCCA National's were incredible. We have g-analyst data that we have confirmed to be over 2 g's!

Yes, our track's are narrower than most other competitors, and our cg slightly compromised for the undertray package. Even still, once we got home, we tested a few cars (static tilt tests) to find the rollover angles etc.) and found that the car wouldn't roll over until pulling more than 2.3 g's (final results from this test are still being analyzed).

Two other factors came into play. Mother Nature with her not so gentle breeze and the most unreliable part in the racecar, the Driver.

My opinion of what happened is as follows.

Entering the corner, we had full aero effects, driving into the wind. The 180 degree corner, also off camber, left the car vulnerable to lift created by a wind gust. In addition, reviewing the in car video shows Jane applying a slight jerk to the wheel. This leads to the bicycle which she just simply drove the car out of.

We have photos of the '01 car also up on two wheels at nationals in a different corner, but still heading downwind (without effective aero) and in a corner that goes off camber.

Okay, that's my two cents.