Western Washington V8 Engine project

[JUSTIN]

What ever happened to this idea?

[Garbo]

It is bloody well hard to do! Awefully impressive but one hell of a lot of work!

[JUSTIN]

does indeed sound like lots of work. Are there any pics or reports of how washington got on with it?

[Bavarian Motorsport]

I believe the program has been stopped http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JUSTIN:
What ever happened to this idea?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not sure what you mean. They built the car, it eventually ran, so they accomplished a lot and that's what came of the 'idea'. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

It was an amazing car, and you can find pictures on thier website, and more info if you search this message board. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Lacy Lodmell]

Viking XXX (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/viking30.htm)

AND

Viking XXX pics (http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/v30/v30pics.html)

I got 'em both bookmarked; definitely the most fascinating FSAE story I've seen. I just drool about the idea that there are several unused 554 cc blocks laying around somewhere collecting dust...

I wish I could find the thread on the old formula boards; in it someone talked some smack about the WWU V-8, and one of the team members posted the real story behind the deal. It's worth looking for if you're really interested.

Lacy Lodmell
Vandals Racing
University of Idaho FSAE

[Matt Gignac]

Does anybody have any idea what kind of power the WWU V8 was putting out?

[fsae_alum]

Man, that car was AWESOME. It ABSOLUTELY stole the show at the competition, even though it wasn't running correctly!!! I have NEVER heard a FSAE car that loud. Everybody was drooling so much that year that it was as if it had just rained the ground was so wet. The great guys at WWU handled it soo well too. They took it all in stride and were very friendly and professional. As for what happened, I remember them saying that after the competition they all kind of went their own separate ways and the team was never quite as good as it was then. One of the team member is now (imagine that) working for GM helping out with tech at competition. To think that they did the whole thing with someting like only 5 hardcore guys!! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Seeing the car on the dyno at the competition was an awesome sight and somethign I will NEVER forget

In spite of...

[MikeWaggoner at UW]

I did my undergrad at WWU and wanted to be involved in the tail end of the V8 work but didn't know enough useful at the time. The year I was involved the car was built but no running, and the project was basically over.
The guys that worked on the car really killed themselves for two or three years. Honest 100+ hour weeks continually. The main leaders were graduated or about to graduate so the team didn't accomplish much the next year (when second year cars were still eligible).
Another thing about WWU cars is that they fabricate a lot more in difficult ways than average on any car. Brakes, hollow CNC uprights, steering rack, gears cut, exhausts bent and welded in house. Some of that is availability of equipment, but it mainly means extra time for everything (and usually better suited, lighter components).
The other main features of the V8 were also the composite transmission housing and custom gear setup (using gear components from Honda and either a Suzuki or Kawasaki shaft drive). Everything was stressed (I think the integration of the shock mounts to the transmission was particularly clever).
The car was meant to be perfect in every way and blow away everyone at comp. It weighed 420 pounds. Unfortunately, it just wasn't ready at comp to run and fundamental technical issues would have required much more work to fix. Since every part was designed with low SF's to be as light as possible some parts could break under heavy driving.
Power was never tested really. The Dyno we had couldn't take the RPM to low power ratio and we were too busy building other cars to make the simple reduction.
As far as future V8's, there are enough spare parts to build an improved version of the V8 up there (no you can't buy them). The department head loves the car (it's a vehicle development program, after all) and may put the work in himself after retirement on that engine and give it to the team for a future car.
We were also contacted by a school in Michigan about info on V8's recently and I've seen some cad drawings (look oddly similar to the WWU V8, but I guess it has to) from them.
BTW, WWU's next car is partway done and had better be at comp next year. There are some neat features (custom CV's, dry sump, carbon chassis, 4 identical uprights w/bottom mounted calipers) but no V8. dot.etec.wwu.edu/v35 still no real webpage, doesn't show the neat features of the car yet.
If you have the chance I highly recommend going to WWU, even if just to visit. They also have a 1 yr. postbac certificate and you get full shop access (3 caged VMC's, HAAS HL2 lathe, tube bender, all 100% student accessible) and competition eligibility (they also do other cool stuff, check website at vri.etec.wwu.edu). I'm grateful for the hands-on experience I got, it's making it easy to get TA/RA appointments in grad school.

-Mike Waggoner

[James Waltman]

Viking 30 went to competition in 2001 and, like Mike, I came to the program in the fall of 2001. We spent that whole year doing development and refinement work on the car in hopes of taking it to competition in 2002. We put a lot of work in but in the end we decided that it should not go to competition again. In May of 2002 we began design of our next FSAE car: Viking 35. We had seen how much time and effort the engine consumed and we opted not to use it in the current car because of very limited manpower. Viking 30 was an amazing car and not just because of the engine. The transaxle, brakes, chassis, and suspension were all pretty sweet just to mention a few. The paint job and finish was amazing. I am still very impressed by it and proud that I worked on it a little bit.

What follows is some explanation about the car and the V8. This is from the technicalF1 forum and you can check it out here:
http://www.technicalf1.com/viewtopic.php?topic=678&forum=3

__________

BobDobbs
Engineering Trainee
Joined: Jul 14, 2002
Posts: 3
From:
Posted: 2002-07-14 20:16

What strikes me the most about the V8 project is how the about of rumor and unsubstantiated claims outweigh the fact and truth. As a member of Western Washington Universities Formula SAE team, I was one of less than 12 team members who constructed Viking 30. This is the actual story of how our 554cc V8 powered VRI-XXX FSAE car was created and what happened at the competition. First off, contrary to popular belief we did NOT have unlimited funds. We did however have material donations from Boeing and other local companies. These donations consisted mainly of aluminum, steel and carbon fiber. Our total monetary donations totaled less than $3000 and our university gave us nothing. The engine and car were heavily financed through sweat, blood and caffeine. A core group of 5 members worked a majority of the 16,000 hours it took to create this car.
In 1999 when we began brainstorming about what to build, we had two choices. Build a convention steel tube frame chassis with an F3 motor, get lots of practice in and probably place well or do what we ended up doing. Take a chance and build a car unlike anything ever seen at the FSAE competition. We knew there was a slim chance that we could get an engine running well in such a short time but we all agreed it would be a great educational experience and probably be remembered through future competitions.

This project would not have been possible without the support of Dr. Deal, director of WWU's Vehicle Research Institute. He gave us the freedom to work 24/7 as well as trusted us to use the CNC equipment without restriction. Without the access to this equipment we would never been able to do anything like this.

Now fast-forward a couple of years to the 2001 FSAE competition. We arrived and setup. At tech they only noted one problem with the car, the restrictor was slightly over sized. The restrictor we showed up with was a temporary testing unit. We had not completed our carbon fiber intake by the time we had to leave so the dyno plenum and intake were still being used. This problem was fixed by a little epoxy and things seemed to be fine. Then the endurance martial made an appearance. He told us that we would be disqualified when we executed the driver change in the endurance event. This is where the starter issue comes in. When we designed and built the engine we built everything to the letter of the rules. In September 2001, 6 months after our engine was machined, they added a rule stating "there is to be external assistance during the driver change, except tools required for the job."� We were told by the person who wrote this rule that it was added as a safety precaution because a student was injured in 2000 while push starting a car with a dead battery. We considered the starter a tool and there was no safety issue about it but they wouldn't budge. Their compromise was to give us a 300-point penalty if we wanted to continue in the competition. In the end it didn't matter because we spent most of the time there chasing down an electrical daemon that turned out to be the ground wire for our fuel pump.

It was disappointing that we didn't make a good showing in the dynamic events but we all had fun getting there.

_________

There were also questions about it last fall right after FSAE.com came into existence. Follow the link to see that topic.
http://fsae.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=763607348&f=125607348&m=5376033511&r=3626054511#3626054511


Lacy posted the links to the Viking 30 stuff on our website. Check it out and post any questions you have and we might be able to answer them.


Like Mike said, if you get the chance to come check out our shop don't pass it up we are always happy to have visitors.

James Waltman
waltmaj@cc.wwu.edu
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/
Formula SAE
Vehicle Research Institute at
Western Washington University

[JUSTIN]

I have had a look at all the posts etc to do with the V8 design. What I wonder were the reasons behind the choice of a v8 format and are there any adfvantage, e.g. would a flat ( boxer style) configuration have been useful?

[Travis Garrison]

Justin, the goal of the v8 was an engine that provided smoother flow through the restrictor. By using a flat crank and a 90 v8 the pulses are evenly spaced (remember the engine used 4 cylinder motorcycle heads), a flat 8 would either screw up the pulse spacing or require new cams, more complicated crank, etc...

Travis Garrison
WWU

[Sam Zimmerman]

I am hoping to be at Boeing within the next few weeks for a meeting and hope to take a trip to WWU to check out the WWU FSAE program.

Whether the vehicle in question did well or not at the dynamic events, the team took a chance and came with a car that is still being talked about. Your team is in a class by itself. Who else has built a car that has caused so many aspiring engineers to be this fascinated with it over two years after its debut?

As a side note, I have firsthand knowledge of Lacy's fascination with this engine. I don't know how many times I have seen him ogling the pictures, showing them to someone else, or just talking about the achievement. (We were just talking about this last night over beers even.)

Sam Zimmerman
Vandals Racing
2002-2003 Team Leader

[Travis Garrison]

Definetly stop by if you're in the area...we'll give you the full tour, plus I'd like to hear what you guys are up to, I'm currently looking for northwest schools with masters programs...and fsae teams.

[Mick_P]

Hats off to the WWU guys - that Viking 30 is a magnificent car! Pitty about the time problems and lack of results ont he dyno and in the dynamic events. Hope we can get a car that is engineered somewhere near the level!

Mick Partridge
Swinburne University of Technology

[gug]

have you WWU guys seen the work of ian drysdale? have a look at ian's homepage (http://home.mira.net/~iwd/) for a v8 motorbike (19000 rpm), or have a look at www.22000rpm.com (http://www.22000rpm.com/) for some more work of his. well worth a look.

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.

[woollymoof]

I heard that he helped them, can you WWU guys confirm?

Cheers,

Kirk Veitch
Swinburne University of Technology

[Travis Garrison]

Keep in mind that everyone from WWU who has been posting on this forum so far was never really very involved with Viking 30, but as far as I know there was no real outside help to speak of. I'm almost positive that Drysdale didn't have any involvment in the project.

Travis Garrison
WWU FSAE

[Chris Boyden]

I must say that the V8 engine/transaxle is a beautiful work of art. I can only imagine the level of dedication it took to complete.
And I thought that I spent way too much time in the shop! But living in the shop has its own appeal.......

[Charlie]

If I recall, during the Viking XXX building there was a sound clip on the website of a drysdale engine, and they ended up having to take it down. They provided an apology and a link to the drysdale website later on.

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[gug]

mmmm, ive heard that sound clip. sounds wonderful, but he only takes it to 12,000rpm, not to its' 19,000rpm redline (in race trim).

why is there no smilie for drooling?!?!?

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.

[Chris Boyden]

Yes, doesn't it sound Awesome....
Not to be a pain the arss...but uh..we are engineers here http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif...
I think the redline is 16000.

The redline on the 250cc engines they grabbed the heads from is 19000.

[gug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Engine:
750cc watercooled 8 cylinder, 90 degree vee configuration, bore and stroke 56 x 38mm, 'Flat' (180) crankshaft design, 6 speed close ratio cassette-style gearbox, 4 valves per cylinder, 17,000 rpm redline (race motors 19,000rpm), 120 kW power output projected. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

taken from the 750cc racebike (http://home.mira.net/~iwd/750specs.html), not the 1000cc cruiser (http://home.mira.net/~iwd/cruiser/index.html).

hehe, no need to be a pain in the arss, dreams do come true! if only i had the $80k (US$37k) for one of those cruisers...

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.

[Chris Boyden]

GUG , sorry about that....
I thought we were talking about the WWU v8.

I'll have to check out the Drysdale....
sounds like a pretty awesome package.

[Travis Garrison]

Charlie, here is Rob's reply to the soundclip question (found at http://www.technicalf1.com/viewtopic.php?topic=678&forum=3 )


"Charlie,

The sound clip you are refering to is one of the Drysdale V8 that we had put on the site as an example of what a flat crank V8 sounds like. Once our engine fired we quickliy replaced it with sound clips of our own engine. For the last six months the fomulasae.com site was up we had multiple sound clips and one video of the VXXX engine and car running. I hope that clears it up for you. "



This I would believe, since he was one of the very core members of V30...

We did not have any substantial help on the v8 from any company other than cash and material donations...

Also...the 19,000rpm redline...dunno where that came from...Boyden, your on the right track...probably talked to a more reliable team member, our electronics are limited to ~16,000 from what I gather, and our injectors are at full duty cycle well before that...

Travis Garrison
WWU FSAE

[Charlie]

Yes, I remember they had actual sound clips up later. This was before the 01 competition (damn I am old. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[gug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Charlie:
...there was a sound clip on the website of a drysdale engine...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

sorry people, the change of page has probably caught you all out. the drysdale engine has the 19,000rpm redline, and that was the engine i was talking about.

16000rpm is still a pretty mean feat though!

apparently they want to enter in the moto-gp, and that bike now has a redline of 22,000rpm. they have just updated www.22000rpm.com (http://www.22000rpm.com) with some info about the engine if you are interested.

http://www.22000rpm.com/images/mgp_eng1_t.jpg

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.