ethanol anyone?

[gus]

Looks like our team has decided that we want ethanol on next years car for various purposes other than simply engine topics. Surely someone out here is on a team that already runs E85, and I"m praying they wont' mind giving me some pointers to get me on my way with the lovely corn-syrup of the gods. Here are some topics I'd love to have some light shed on.

Compatability-what on the engine system needs to be changed to be ethanol friendly? Mainly, i'm wondering if i'd have to go with different fuel lines or injectors so nothing will be eaten away at during operation

Compression-from what i've found, higher than stock motorcycle compression is desired with E85. Is such compression attainable by merely decking the head, or are modified pistons needed also?

Ignition Remix-I had to make the r-kelly reference. Seriously though, would it be kosher to run E85 and upped compression with a stock ignition map, or would a radically new map be needed. Also, would "hotter" spark plugs be needed?


Thanks for anyone who actually read this whole long thing, and even bigger thanks to anyone who can gimme some insight.

Gus Aramayo
Iowa State Cyclone Racing
Engine Team Co-Captain

[gus]

Looks like our team has decided that we want ethanol on next years car for various purposes other than simply engine topics. Surely someone out here is on a team that already runs E85, and I"m praying they wont' mind giving me some pointers to get me on my way with the lovely corn-syrup of the gods. Here are some topics I'd love to have some light shed on.

Compatability-what on the engine system needs to be changed to be ethanol friendly? Mainly, i'm wondering if i'd have to go with different fuel lines or injectors so nothing will be eaten away at during operation

Compression-from what i've found, higher than stock motorcycle compression is desired with E85. Is such compression attainable by merely decking the head, or are modified pistons needed also?

Ignition Remix-I had to make the r-kelly reference. Seriously though, would it be kosher to run E85 and upped compression with a stock ignition map, or would a radically new map be needed. Also, would "hotter" spark plugs be needed?


Thanks for anyone who actually read this whole long thing, and even bigger thanks to anyone who can gimme some insight.

Gus Aramayo
Iowa State Cyclone Racing
Engine Team Co-Captain

[woollymoof]

Compression can be increased, but given most bike engines run 12:1 and higher you have to be very careful about how far you go, not for detonation reasons but for valve hitting piston reasons. You should measure the piston to valve clearance in your engine before you make any decsions. Remember that when the engine is turning over at 12-13000 RPM the clearance does reduce.
If you deck the head too much you might have to cut some out of your pistons. This could make an already crap combustion chamber (because it's pent roof) even crapper and then you've lost some or all of your gains. If I were you I'd got high comp pistons first. It's a lot cheaper to go back to your old pistons then undeck your head.

A new map would be needed, don't know if it would be radical though. It's not like it would matter. If we make the assumption that you're going with a new plenum design, then you'd need a new map anyway.

Possibly hotter plugs, depends on how far you go with compression. Suck it and see.

[karter]

we run methanol in my buddy' sprint car, it is a very forgiving fuel, too rich dosen't hurt performance much although too lean puts a hole in a piston real quick. The big thing to using it is cleaning out the fuel system after you use the stuff, Indy car mechanics call it pickilng, Alcahol attracts water and will form a white corosive crud in the fuel system so you have to get as much out as you can, then put in some gas and run it till it starts to run bad (you use about twice as much alacahol as gas so the thing is way too rich on gas). Gasoline is also the best way to clean your fuel system. We don't let the car sit with fuel in it for more than two weeks, but then the fuel system on a 410 chevorlet is quite a bit larger so it dosen't plug up as quick .... good luck

Stephen

[Fresno State]

Look for a Chemical resistance for pumps chart. This should list and grade almost every material you will use in you fuel system. There is one in back of a Grainger Supply book, along with many other industrial fluid transfer books. As for flushing your system, we found that if you leave the Ethanol in the car for about six months it forms a green film that likes to plug filters. This also depends on if you spend the time to Hard Anodize everything aluminum, and find a ethanol safe fuel pump/ regulator. I know the Micro Sprints running 600cc motors with Methanol flush there systems every time they race.
As for the ignition curve, thats where a dyno comes into play.

Hey I think I borrowed a kill switch from you in Detroit.
Thanks again...

[HB]

E-85 is very interesting fuel. We ran it last year but due to time constraints and a very clean gasoline fuel map, chose not to in Detroit this year. First off, in our experiences, E-85 is much more corrosive than M-85, having wasted several so-called alcohol compatible pumps including our Superflow dyno pump. Also, we experiend a high amout of pitting in the cylinder walls and rapid deteriation of any exposed aluminum. It is essencial that everything aluminum be anodized or at least that you flush the entire system out after everytime you are done running. Also be very careful when tuning because the exhaust temperatures can rise extremly fast. A true lambda sensor is nessacary to tune correctly; without it, it'll be very difficult. Also, start now. It'll take some time to get a clean map. We were able to find a vendor to donate a 55 gallon drum of the stuff but
I think it is avaliable in certain cities at the pump. I know that we were able to obtain some at a Marathon station very close to Cobo Hall in Detroit. About the only thing that we don't like about it is the smell. The exhaust smells like olives. Good luck.

[MikeWaggoner at UW]

Another option instead of raising your compression through decking etc. would be to turbo. You can apply insane boost pressures (our experience was with Methanol a few years back...) and get a very good, flat torque curve.

Western Washington University FSAE
dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae

[Waleed Wasim]

Guys could you please help me with some books that can help in converting to ethanol?

[Rex Chan]

For a FSAE level E85 "conversion", the forums are enough. And there's quite some info on the internet about converting cars to E85. ALso, government agencies will usually have booklets/info about ethanol. And read SAE papers.

Also, please take this the right way when I say that your engine needs a LOT more dyno tuning (regardless of E85 or petrol).

[Gruntguru]

Does anyone have information about the composition of the E85 supplied at FSAE Australia? Caltex states that the proportion of Ethanol can vary from 70% to 85% depending on season. If a team tunes their car using fuel at one end of this range and the fuel supplied at comp is at the other end, mixtures will be significantly different. I assume that 85% would represent a "summer" blend but can teams be sure that the fuel supplied at comp will be 85% ethanol?

[Rex Chan]

I am almost certain that for the 2009, 2010, and 2011 comps (i.e. all the E85 comps thus far), the event has used Race Fuels as the E85 supplier. Race Fuels E85 is 85% ethanol, and 15% 98RON. They blend it themselves.

We use Race Fuels for engine dyno tuning, and Caltex Bio E-Flex for track days. There was talk of getting an ethanol sensor in 2011, but it hasn't happened yet. This should allow you to compensate your fuel table (shouldn't affect Ign table)

[Leibi]

Hi,

we run E85 now the 4th year. We had no problems with failing parts in the engine like a failing coating of the liners.
Look for resistance tables and replace the fuel hoses and all the sealings in the fuel system. We run for example the same fuel filter as before an had no problems in the last years. You should also replace the injectors by E85-resistant ones.
We raised CR up to 15.6:1 and had no problems with knocking also we tried it on the dyno ;-)
Ignition timing is a very important point when running E85!

Regards,
Leibi

[Rex Chan]

Leibi: when you say we "should" use E85 compatible injectors, are you saying bad things will happen if we don't? I know it would be ideal to run E85 rated injectors (Delphi were supposed to release some heated ones soon), but we just use the stock CBR600RR lower injectors and have had no failures/problems, so far (we have used the same 2 sets over 3 years, cleaned in 09 and 2010).

The 09 engine ran very advanced on E85 with no (known) problems (low MAP though).

I would anodize any aluminium parts (because you should, and it's easy). Try to get E85 rated pumps, injectors, etc; but if you can't, just make sure you have spares and check them regularly. We don't run any special fuel pump or filter.

[Leibi]

Hi,

the "should" was meant in a way, that i seriously advice it to you. We had no problems with the sealings by using the stock injectors for a while but the more important point is to higher the flow rating. Otherwise your injection time gets too long...
Regards,
Leibi

[Michael Royce]

Although this question was raised about E-85 at FSAE-A, it is important to realize that the fuels used at the USA competitions are likely to be different.

Firstly, just about ALL pump gasoline sold in the USA now contains 10% ethanol. The oil companies have started using ethanol as an octane improver as they can no longer use tetra ethyl lead or MTBE.

Secondly, typically, the E-85 is 85% pump gasoline and 15% ethanol by volume. This makes the ethanol content of "E-85" actually 80-82%.

E-85 can be found at many gas stations in Michigan. However, I understand that it is very difficult to find in California. And I don't know about Lincoln.

[rallygabe]

Our school has been running E85 for years thanks to sponsorship.
For compression- you can run it on a stock bike engine without many worries, as mentioned elsewhere. One of our non-formula school projects runs around 13-1 in a fancy pants engine and it makes approximately as much power as the gasoline version.
spark tuning- this should be done regardless of fuel as 99.9% of OE's are tuning for emissions and fuel economy.
compatibility- what compatibility problems? Do your research. There are excellent documents from places such as Oak Ridge National Lab and a few others about ethanol-gasoline blend fuels and material compatibilities. There is a short list of materials that should be avoided and thats about it.
message me if you have any particular questions.