Some new construction pics from your favorite underdogs...

[Marc Jaxa-Rozen]

Apologies for the crappy image quality, but at least it's faster than ImageStation.

http://ca.photos.yahoo.com/enaf1

Marc
École Nationale d'Aérotechnique

[Denny Trimble]

Wow, that's a lot of progress if that car's being built for Detroit 2004. When do you expect to drive it?

Good job!

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03)

[gug]

im a bit curious about your pedals. if im looking at your picture correctly, they have no adjustment? do you move the seat back and foward, or are all your drivers close to the same height?

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.

[Brent Howard]

Hey Marc..looks great. Glad those tires and rims have worked out for you, at least someone will use them and they aren't cluttering up our team office anymore.

Brent

www.ucalgary.ca/fsae (http://www.ucalgary.ca/fsae)

[Marc Jaxa-Rozen]

Thanks for the comments guys- Denny, unfortunately I'd be lying if I said we just started on the car, and Detroit is pretty much out of our reach...we'd love to go as this is our final year before we leave for university, but time and budget constraints will probably keep us out. Still, things are going smoothly so far and we might be able to drive the car before snowfall (if not, well, a bit of parking lot drifting never hurt anyone http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Gug, the pedals are indeed fixed, so is the seat. It's not a particularly elegant solution but together with the adjustable steering wheel it suits us fine (we're all in the 5'10-6'2 range, so there's not too much variation) I guess we'll have to forfeit the entertainment value of using a circus midget driver, though. Can't have it all.

Brent, yeah, we can't wait to heat 'em up a little http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Thanks again.

Marc
ENAF1

[Brent Howard]

Are you serious that you won't be there in 2004?? Your car is nearly done, what are you waiting on now and what do you still need to buy? In 2003 our chassis hadn't even been painted until 1 month before the competition. We thought we were the slowest team in teh world...but then we saw one team wrapping their chassis in saran wrap to lay up bodywork. Budget might be quite difficult to overcome, but time...you have tons of that. Anyway, hope that you can make it to Detroit this year.

Brent

www.ucalgary.ca/fsae (http://www.ucalgary.ca/fsae)

[Marc Jaxa-Rozen]

Well, we'll see. Obviously, playing devil's advocate to justify why we would not go to the competition is absurd, but anyway...we still need to begin the bodywork (which, incidentally, my highly motivational composites teacher considers as a) a low-tech project unworthy of his attention and b) too big of a task for one or two people) and serious engine development (I have a decent intake design but know f***-all about electronics), and we need to tackle the host of little details which inevitably pop up as a nuisance later on- fuel, cooling and electric reliability, etc. I know these annoy even the best of teams, so I shudder when I think of the gremlins four newbies might have overlooked.

In short, we might be able to pull it off, but at some point it comes down to deciding whether hustling and penny-pinching just to make a token showing at Detroit is worth it (if this were a Disney movie we'd end up winning, but it's not http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif). As far as I'm concerned we might as well spend our cash tuning the car here, fully assessing our design and (most importantly!) having some fun with it.

Marc
ENAF1

[Brent Howard]

Well, whenever you get to Detroit I think you guys will do quite well Marc because you are really striving for a perfect car for Detroit. I hope you make it this year though as it will most definitly be my last year.

Brent

www.ucalgary.ca/fsae (http://www.ucalgary.ca/fsae)

[gug]

damn those disney movies, they have given me so much false hope! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif good luck with the car though, it will be fun no matter what you do.

just a thought, we are planning on making seats for each driver out of foam. put the foam in a garbage bag (or something stronger), sit on it and let it mold to your body and the car. havent tried it yet, it may be too difficult, but it might give you the few inches that you need to make your drivers comfortable.

we most definetly need the moveable pedals. our best driver is 6ft, our lightest driver is probably under 5ft (but she is only 50kg! errr, 110lbs).

- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.

[Denny Trimble]

You have so much time, and your car is so far along... We have ZERO parts built right now for the '04 car.

Teams of 4 or less have successfully brought cars to competition... you should really try to make it. You won't regret it, if for no other reason than to compare your car to 139 others.

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03)

[Didier Beaudoin]

Thanks to your positive comments, we will be entering the competition this year!! Look for #137 at Pontiac in May!

We're going for fun. If we do not finish last, we'll be happy... Our entire team (5 members) is below 21 years old and we don't have a big budget, so don't expect anything incredible...

But anyway, we'll be there, that's the important part. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Didier Beaudoin
Team Leader -
École Nationale d'Aérotechnique

[Brent Howard]

Sweet, Glad to hear it Didier. I look forward to seeing your car on the track.

Brent

www.ucalgary.ca/fsae (http://www.ucalgary.ca/fsae)

[Denny Trimble]

Great! Good luck.

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04)

[Marc Jaxa-Rozen]

We put the car down on its wheels on Friday...needless to say we were pretty much stoked http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.enaf1.com/full_car.jpg

http://www.enaf1.com/frontview.jpg

Rest of the pics (http://ca.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/enaf1/lst?&.dir=/ENAF1&.src=ph&.begin=33&.view=t&.order=&.done=http%3a//ca.f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/enaf1/lst%3f%26.dir=/ENAF1%26.src=ph%26.view=t)

Lots of work left to do but it's an encouraging step.

Marc
www.enaf1.com (http://www.enaf1.com)

[Didier Beaudoin]

Seeing these pics gives me chills... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm so happy! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Didier Beaudoin
Team Leader -
École Nationale d'Aérotechnique

[RiNaZ]

hey marc,
are you guys using go-kart seat? does it fit all the drivers for the car? and how much did you buy it for?

RiNaZ

[Didier Beaudoin]

Yup, it's a go-kart seat. It fits everyone as we are about all the same shape - slim.

As for the price, I would have to look through the bills... It wasn't bought by the actual team members.

Didier Beaudoin
Team Leader -
École Nationale d'Aérotechnique

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Didier Beaudoin:
Seeing these pics gives me chills... http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm so happy! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Didier Beaudoin
Team Leader -
École Nationale d'Aérotechnique<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just wait until you see it drive! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Denny Trimble]

Yeah, or watching something you built beat every production car available, modified or not, at the national autocross championships http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04)

[Frank]

guys,

i hate to say this but..

be VERY wary of those (seeming, from the photo) small rod ends in bending on the upright pickups

this is meant as constructive criticism

regards

Frank

[Marc Jaxa-Rozen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>i hate to say this but..

be VERY wary of those (seeming, from the photo) small rod ends in bending on the upright pickups

this is meant as constructive criticism<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the comment (don't worry, this is our first car so we're not really in a position to take offense at any valid criticism)

Yeah, I guess those rod ends in bending are reprehensible, and the judges will have a field day with it (wait till they see the suspension pickups!), but they're 3/8" and will have a much shorter moment arm once the suspension is decently aligned- in theory they should hold up fine. We went with this setup because AFAIK it offers easier packaging and fabrication than sphericals, and that was a priority for us.

Marc
www.enaf1.com (http://www.enaf1.com)

[Frank]

high quality 3/8" RE's should last a while

just keep an eye on them hey, or you might lose a front corner

my reccomendation is to check they are not bent as much as possible, also pull em out and fluoro magnetic test 'em every 5 hrs of driving until you're confident.

regards

Frank

[D Mack - CMT]

I have to go with Frank on this one. Make sure you did your maths correctly on this one fellas, rod ends in bending are not the best idea.
Originaly we thought they would last but then had 4 guys re-do the sums on such a topic to discover that they would go buy-buy in the first hard braking corner.

Good luck, the car looks good!

Dusko
Curtin Motorsport

[Lacy Lodmell]

Just wanted to add my $.02 regarding the rod ends in bending issue. We designed for 1/4" rod ends everywhere last year, and I managed to bend the outboard fronts after doing some braking tests. We replaced 'em and kept on testing until I broke a corner off the car. BAAAAAD. Anyway, we switched to heavy duty 5/16" shank ends on the outboards (which thankfully didn't require an upright redesign)and went back on our merry way. These held up, although the rears would bend after a lot of driving because they were (gasp inserted here) screwed out so far for static camber gain. Never broke anymore of 'em though, even after we lost a rear wheel and added massive crankcase ventilation to the F3 via a large hole in the oil pan. Moral of the story: 3/8" rod ends should live, but you will join me in suspension design Hell in the eyes of the judges! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lacy Lodmell
Vandals Racing 2003
University of Idaho FSAE

[Didier Beaudoin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lacy Lodmell:
Just wanted to add my $.02 regarding the rod ends in bending issue. We designed for 1/4" rod ends everywhere last year, and I managed to bend the outboard fronts after doing some braking tests. We replaced 'em and kept on testing until I broke a corner off the car. BAAAAAD. Anyway, we switched to heavy duty 5/16" shank ends on the outboards (which thankfully didn't require an upright redesign)and went back on our merry way. These held up, although the rears would bend after a lot of driving because they were (gasp inserted here) screwed out so far for static camber gain. Never broke anymore of 'em though, even after we lost a rear wheel and added massive crankcase ventilation to the F3 via a large hole in the oil pan. Moral of the story: 3/8" rod ends should live, but you will join me in suspension design Hell in the eyes of the judges! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lacy Lodmell
Vandals Racing 2003
University of Idaho FSAE
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's what we wanted to hear.. :P

Seriously, we know that it shouldn't be made this way, but at the time we built this, we were only 17 y-o, hence severely missing experience. Unfortunately, we don't expect to have time to change the tabs design, but if we do, be sure we'll do so.

Thanks for the comments guys! http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Didier Beaudoin
Team Leader -
École Nationale d'Aérotechnique

[Brent Howard]

We have run rod ends before, 3/8" on the top and 7/16" on the bottom of a pushrod suspension system. We have never seen one break or bend at all and have driven the car quite a bit. Personally I think that they do work, however you could make it lighter by using the spherical bearings. Again, I am fully aware of the problem with them, however if it truly was a safety issue I would think that the rules would be changed accordingly to ban their use.

Brent

www.ucalgary.ca/fsae (http://www.ucalgary.ca/fsae)

[Wizard]

Looking at your pics and we noticed that the plumbing for you brake system looks a bit odd. First, the aluminum fittings typically are not used due to the fact they can burst(look into steel). The fittings may survive however you are asking more of them then they are designed for. Also, we were wondering if the hard line you are using is aluminum due to its high luster in the pics(this would also be a no, no).

Finally, the fact that you are using rubber flex line, may cause you to lose some pedal. Smaller diameter hard line (of the ferrous variety) would also decrease your loss of pedal.

Just trying to prevent an accident.

The 40oz Killer!

[ben]

1/4" sphericals all round are perfectly adequate (rod ends are fine inboard). We have had no problems in three years.

You just have to design the load paths correctly. Are wishbones are 16mm od 0.9mm wall thickness mild steel BTW.

Ben

University of Birmingham
www.ubracing.co.uk (http://www.ubracing.co.uk)

[Didier Beaudoin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Wizard:
Looking at your pics and we noticed that the plumbing for you brake system looks a bit odd. First, the aluminum fittings typically are not used due to the fact they can burst(look into steel). The fittings may survive however you are asking more of them then they are designed for. Also, we were wondering if the hard line you are using is aluminum due to its high luster in the pics(this would also be a no, no).

Finally, the fact that you are using rubber flex line, may cause you to lose some pedal. Smaller diameter hard line (of the ferrous variety) would also decrease your loss of pedal.

Just trying to prevent an accident.

The 40oz Killer!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I beleive our aluminium tubing is sutable for this application. It is in fact aluminium lines taken directly from aeronautics. It is used on hydraulics systems on aircrafts and it can stand up to 1000 psi easily. The only trouble we have with them is packaging. Anyone using lines like ours?

As for the front lines, they aren't rubber; they're actually Aeroquip steel braided hoses that can resit to a 1500 psi pressure, so I'm not expecting them to break anytime.. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thanks for your concern.

Didier Beaudoin
Team Leader -
École Nationale d'Aérotechnique

[Denny Trimble]

Didier,
Our brake system pressures run about 1300psi under "normal operation", and all of our brake system components are rated for 3000 as far as I know.

Also, Carroll Smith advised against using the aluminum hard line. Apparently he'd seen it fatigue and fail at an inopportune time, and the weight savings aren't very much considering the added risk.

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04)

[Didier Beaudoin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Denny Trimble:
Didier,
Our brake system pressures run about 1300psi under "normal operation", and all of our brake system components are rated for 3000 as far as I know.

Also, Carroll Smith advised against using the aluminum hard line. Apparently he'd seen it fatigue and fail at an inopportune time, and the weight savings aren't very much considering the added risk.

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm.. You got me concerned now... AFAIK, our break lines can be heat treated to stand up to 3000 psi, and the number I told about the flex hose was on the top of my head. I think it can support more than 1500 psi..

But if Caroll Smith told it wasn't recommended to use hard lines, we'd better get them off... I'll talk about it to my teammates.

Didier Beaudoin
Team Leader -
École Nationale d'Aérotechnique

[Marc Jaxa-Rozen]

Denny,

Our normal operating pressure is 750-800 psi, at least in theory (100-120 pound braking force on the pedal, which is about what Bob Woods recommended as a guideline on the old Escribe list, I believe). The aluminium lines we're using are rated up to around 1200-1500 psi in untreated form and like Didier says, heat treating might be a good idea- a panic stop would probably bring the pedal force up to 200 pounds or so and that's not a very good time to have your lines bust up.

I wouldn't be too concerned about the flex hose though, IIRC they will hold nearly 2000 psi, which is enough for a panic stop.

Thanks for the info guys-

Marc
ÉNA

[Denny Trimble]

I looked through the Smith books, and he actually does recommend aluminum or stainless hard lines in Nuts, Bolts, Fasteners, and Plumbing. "If it's good enough for the FAA, it's good enough for me", p.208.

I remember now what he remarked on our '99 car, that the brake light switch was heavy and only supported by the aluminum hard line, which could lead to vibration and fatigue. So that's an installation problem, not a general ruling out of aluminum hard lines.

Your system pressure will vary with tire size, rotor size, load transfer, piston sizes, etc, so those numbers look reasonable.

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04)

[Marc Jaxa-Rozen]

Yep, we have largish front rotors and some serious overkill on the rear brakes, so we might not need that big of a hydraulic pressure.

Been a while since I've done the calcs but I believe that was corresponding to a 1.2G deceleration. Then again there's a massive amount of guesstimates involved, so I'm eager to see if the math holds up in real life (that won't be anytime soon though, considering the two feet of snow that just crapped down on the city)

While we're on the subject, has anyone come up with approximate μ data for common FSAE brake pads? We're using the Wilwood Polymatrix D compound and I wonder how it compares to the values mentioned in Tune to Win.

Marc