Team recruitment and transition [Archive]

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Aaron Harnden

03-05-2004, 06:14 PM

In the past at Deakin Uni, the car has been designed, built and raced by final year engineering students who leave the subsequent year taking all they learnt with them. It's usually a few keen 3rd years that take over the show and run with it the following year. This is less than ideal as the guys making the major decisions have only at the very most the experience of one competition and I feel this is why Deakin has had a lack of design "evolution" showing up with vastly different designs year in year out. Unfortunatly, this year will be no exception. We are working to change it but I'd like to know how other uni's do it.

Do academic staff fully support the FSAE program and encourage 1st years to get involved or is it up to the team to recruit?
Do you have subjects available devoted to FSAE as part of your course?
Does the university supply most of your resources or are you left to your own devices to seek sponsorship?
Does your Faculty Advisor guide the team towards a particular design? Is that why some teams have similar cars year after year?
We (the students) like to think we make the decisions but do you have complete freedom or do you need to convince staff before you can head in a different design direction?
What process is in place for the transition from one years team to the next?
Are your teams made up of much more than just engineering students? ie jounalist, web designers, commerce, marketing, graphic artists, etc. Our team is all engineers with one exception.

Cheers,

Aaron Harnden
Phantom Engineering
Chief Design Engineer 2004

I may not always be right, but i'm never wrong...

Aaron Harnden

03-05-2004, 06:14 PM

Charlie

03-05-2004, 08:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Aaron Harnden:
Do academic staff fully support the FSAE program and encourage 1st years to get involved or is it up to the team to recruit?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Pretty much 100% up to the team
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Do you have subjects available devoted to FSAE as part of your course?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Does the university supply most of your resources or are you left to your own devices to seek sponsorship?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Depends on your definition of resources. Facilities and tools are definitely a huge resource. We've gotten university $$ the last 2 years, but to get the job done we raise quite a bit of money and supplies on our own.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Does your Faculty Advisor guide the team towards a particular design? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No, definitely not.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Is that why some teams have similar cars year after year? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I don't think so, I think when a car is good there is resistance to change. But experienced teamers know there is always room for improvement. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>We (the students) like to think we make the decisions but do you have complete freedom or do you need to convince staff before you can head in a different design direction?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Design is totally up to us, as it should be. This is not a faculty design competition and faculty should only offer advice. In some rare cases I think the faculty should intervene (a single student trying to dominate the design process for example).
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>What process is in place for the transition from one years team to the next?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Pretty much nothing. Though we try to document well, we haven't done a very good job.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Are your teams made up of much more than just engineering students?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Right now, almost 100% MEs, though the occasional 'other' major comes along http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Experience matters. Get undergrads involved in the design process!!

-Charlie Ping

I just need enough to tide me over until I need more.

Denny Trimble

03-05-2004, 11:10 PM

Yeah, Charlie's right about experience. Get some Sophomores and Juniors hooked, take them to competition, give them the big red key to the car during summer, and watch what happens next year. Good stuff!

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04)

Ashley Denmead

03-06-2004, 04:54 AM

Charlie,

From what you wrote in your reply it would seem that mainly postgrads do the design?

In our case it is the undergrads that do a lot of the design and usually as part of a final yr project.....i'm interested to know if thats the norm with other unis as well?

cheers

ash

The edge is not the limit it is mearly the beginning!

Deakin University Phantom Engineering Team Captain

Charlie

03-06-2004, 05:39 AM

No sorry, what I meant by undergrads is non-seniors. We have never had any graduate students directly involved in our design work. Though we have a couple team alumni grad students now that can offer some advice, they are really too busy with thier grad work.

-Charlie Ping

I just need enough to tide me over until I need more.

Michael Jones

03-06-2004, 11:57 AM

First, Cornell does run very much like you do already - qualified seniors are team leaders and we have a number of excellent one-year professional master's students, especially on electrical systems. They all leave, and we're forced to start from scratch again.

This is mitigated by the fact that we know this and plan for it in advance. So, at present, juniors (3rd year) are stepping up to take over various leadership responsibilities (e.g., crew chief while driving, competition preparation, assisting with design presentations, etc.) and ideally are ready to go by the beginning of their senior year.

That said, the adjustment is sometimes smooth, sometimes bumpy, and really difficult to predict from the year before. The team didn't do a very good job priming future leaders last year and I expected some serious adjustments this year as a result. Turns out they didn't need it really - they're started off solid and got better still. Probably one of the more cohesive leadership groups I've seen here.

On to questions asked:

***
Do academic staff fully support the FSAE program and encourage 1st years to get involved or is it up to the team to recruit?
***

We started a program this year that adopts freshmen (1st year) as volunteers, not full team members. This allows freshmen to commit to a lesser degree of involvement and adjust to the university and the team. We had problems burning people out in the past. A former team leader and I agreed that 2.5-3 years is about all you can expect - the rare 4-year folk tend to be burnt out by the end.

***
Do you have subjects available devoted to FSAE as part of your course?
***

FSAE is a course in its own right. Otherwise the curriculum tends to be more theoretical than applied, with a couple of exceptions that tend to be at advanced levels.

***
Does the university supply most of your resources or are you left to your own devices to seek sponsorship?
***

We receive (and have to fight for) space, which we share with others. Beyond that, our budget is all sponsorship. Our big-name sponsors are acquired in partnership with the alumni development people though, if for no other reason that if we didn't go this route, they'd be mighty pissed off - they're asking for considerably more than us, after all, and don't like the competition.

***
Does your Faculty Advisor guide the team towards a particular design? Is that why some teams have similar cars year after year?
***

Our faculty advisor, Al George, does precisely the opposite if anything. He structures a series of design reviews early in the year whereby iterations of research and design are presented and defended, and two reviews later in the year to cope with redesign, testing, and competition readiness. He does not guide design as much as ask tough questions about them. If you don't have the answers, well, you look like an idiot and he'll be fair but blunt in reminding you of that.

To the extent that we don't reinvent the wheel every year and have many systems that are evolutionary in nature, it's because the above system is somewhat conservative and we are encouraged to back up designs from both external sources and from our own research reports (written as part of the course requirements...)

We do of course have revolutionary or highly complex research going on, but we don't slam it on the car for the hell of it. Most such research is a multi-year process, and requires a number of different cohorts to pull off.

***
We (the students) like to think we make the decisions but do you have complete freedom or do you need to convince staff before you can head in a different design direction?
***

See above. Convincing your faculty advisor's not a bad idea. If you have no argument for your design, the design judges will know. Might as well see if your idea will survive friendly fire first.

***
What process is in place for the transition from one years team to the next?
***

See above. We recruit at the end of the spring semester to bring new team members to competition. They are not formally members of the team (legally here they cannot drive as a result) but help out, go to competition, get stoked, and start off the new year considerably more advanced than those recruited in the fall.

***
Are your teams made up of much more than just engineering students? ie jounalist, web designers, commerce, marketing, graphic artists, etc. Our team is all engineers with one exception.
***

Ph.D. student in Communication here, organizational communication and knowledge systems. We have had people from economics, industrial and labor relations, operations research, physics, business, even textiles and apparel. Most of the team of course are mechanical or electrical, as can be expected. But the others learn. Our chassis leader and designer of our shocks last year was an econ/physics major.

---
Michael Jones
Coordinator, Student Project Teams, College of Engineering

Cornell Racing
http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu

03-06-2004, 05:11 PM

Up until this year, our program worked exactly like yours, Aaron. However, alot of changes allow me to now say 'ditto' to much of Michael's remarks.

On this 2004 cycle, FSAE became an official undergrad capstone option with half a dozen returning members for the First time (we're all 5th year seniors, heh). Our cycle is also expanded from 2 semesters to 3 plus the summer, where the curriculum starts in the Spring semester. Meaning that right now, the 2005 team is starting up and is mandatorily helping and learning from the 2004 team. We also visit 1st, 2nd, and 3rd year design classes to invite new volunteers and team members.

These changes have allowed us to raise twice the funding of 2003 and invest into badly needed tools and equipment.

We hope this will result in a siginificantly better showing this year.

David Yao
Univ. of New Mexico (USA)
LOBOMotorsports '03 '04

RaID

03-07-2004, 12:06 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Do academic staff fully support the FSAE program and encourage 1st years to get involved or is it up to the team to recruit?
Do you have subjects available devoted to FSAE as part of your course?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At Adelaide Uni the FSAE team is run as one of the final year projects within the uni, so far only final yr students have been involved.
We are the first team to actually start our design process half way through 3rd year.
So we started Mid 03 for the 04 FSAE-A comp.
So far the teams were formed in late Jan/early Feb to compete in the Dec comp that year.

Its support by a limited amount of faculty members quite a few especially from other engineering dep arent supportive at all
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Does the university supply most of your resources or are you left to your own devices to seek sponsorship?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We get a garage, small amount of financial support, pretty were left to our own devices to gather the rest of the money we need to complete, the coordinator of the projetc tries to get more uni support but its not a very liked project within the Engineering dep

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Does your Faculty Advisor guide the team towards a particular design? Is that why some teams have similar cars year after year?
We (the students) like to think we make the decisions but do you have complete freedom or do you need to convince staff before you can head in a different design direction?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
He sometimes gives us ideas and what he wouldnt mind seeing on the car, but in the end we have to end say. He just checks the final design that its reasonable ie is gonna work.

If we want to do something very drastic ie run a CVT hence leading to cutting off the transmission of the current engine, then he'll have a say of and most likely stuff like that wont be done unless were the designed has been tested and it works

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
What process is in place for the transition from one years team to the next?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
At the moment NONE
Were the first team that is going to try to get younger year levels involved in some way, so at least they learn the basics and get a feel for what its about.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Are your teams made up of much more than just engineering students? ie jounalist, web designers, commerce, marketing, graphic artists, etc. Our team is all engineers with one exception.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Mechanical/ Mechatronic Engineers only
were not even allowed to have engineers from other departments let alone from totally different faculties

Hopefully the way our team is restructuring how the program is run will lead to better designs for our future teams

"Pain is an illusion"
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RagingGrandpa

03-07-2004, 12:26 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RaID:
Mechanical/ Mechatronic Engineers only
were not even allowed to have engineers from other departments let alone from totally different faculties<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif Just hurt a EE's feelings! oh and Mechatronic is a cool word.

Our team is alittle less structured as far as administration, we take anyone from any year, and if after a year they're still showing up and have demonstrated skill and dependability, they'll be up for a team leader position.

I love the idea of recruiting quasi-members with the purpose of taking them to competition asap, because you would expose the newbies to the most exciting parts of the project right off the bat, instead of doing what we do and recruiting people in September and having 75% of them leave long before the interesting parts start. But the problem is we really don't have time to be doing anything but working on the car in the few months before competition.

"...with powershifts and tiresmoke for all"

RaID

03-07-2004, 04:02 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by RagingGrandpa:
http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif Just hurt a EE's feelings! oh and Mechatronic is a cool word.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having at least one EE involved would be definately be very useful for us, but unfortunately the uni politcs are up shitscreek

04 Adelaide Uni FSAE Team

"Pain is an illusion"
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ChrisB

03-11-2004, 08:56 PM

I seem to be an exception to the norm, or rather my whole team is the exception. Right now there are about 8 or 10 core members on our team, core as in we do all the work and half are first year engineering students. We have a religious studies major and a physics major as well.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Aaron Harnden:
Do academic staff fully support the FSAE program and encourage 1st years to get involved or is it up to the team to recruit? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We get support from the staff in terms of recruiting in the way of letting us come in during class and recruit.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Do you have subjects available devoted to FSAE as part of your course? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Does the university supply most of your resources or are you left to your own devices to seek sponsorship? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The university gives us pretty much full access to the student machine shop, a room for the car, and tech services machine shop time/credit.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Does your Faculty Advisor guide the team towards a particular design? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, not really
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Is that why some teams have similar cars year after year? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I dont know about that but its probably most likely similar because most cars are evolutions of last years and not totally rethought
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>We (the students) like to think we make the decisions but do you have complete freedom or do you need to convince staff before you can head in a different design direction? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We have pretty much total freedom, if this is for the best is yet to be determined.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>What process is in place for the transition from one years team to the next? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is no "process" as it were but we have some idea of how to make it easier for the new team to take over.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Are your teams made up of much more than just engineering students?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As I said before we are about 70 - 80 % engineers but next year we hope to get even more non engineers on the team - it makes it easier to convince everyone that we are a university team and not an engineering team when the team isnt just engineers.

Dominic Venieri

03-13-2004, 01:27 AM

Our team embraces students from all levels - freshmen (1st year) thru graduate students. Most years we have a spectrum of members that spans all class years, helping to ensure at least some transition from year to year. We are able to successfully evolve designs over time and always have members with experience at the competition and in designing and building a car.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Do academic staff fully support the FSAE program and encourage 1st years to get involved or is it up to the team to recruit? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We have one Faculty Advisor who helps us deal with school administration when needed, provides us with his many years of experience as a professor, engineer, and advisor to our team, and helps to keep us focused. We have the cooperation of some lab technicians for certain equipment that we must be supervised to use. We also have the support of the Mechanical Engineering's purchasing, financial and secretarial staff for related activities.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Do you have subjects available devoted to FSAE as part of your course? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We have had some Master's students do thesis work with our faculty advisor related to the FSAE program. We have also had undergraduate students do independent-study coursework with our advisor. Other than those few instances, no coursework is available related to the FSAE program.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Does the university supply most of your resources or are you left to your own devices to seek sponsorship? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The school provides us with our own shop space. The school also provides us with financial support, which we must submit proposals for each year to receive. Outside sponsorship is the result of our own efforts. The school's corporate relations department focuses on Fortune 200 companies and as a result has no interest in any of our sponsors, save for one or two.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Does your Faculty Advisor guide the team towards a particular design? Is that why some teams have similar cars year after year? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Our faculty advisor has no influence over our design choices. He will provide any guidance we ask him for, but all design decisions are fully within our control.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>We (the students) like to think we make the decisions but do you have complete freedom or do you need to convince staff before you can head in a different design direction? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
We as students, have complete control over all aspects of our team, its practices, relationships, and design decisions. The university plays a role only when it comes to things like legal, safety, or financial policy.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>What process is in place for the transition from one years team to the next? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Most years, when the size and makeup of the team permits, graduating seniors act as mentors to their underclass counterparts to prepare them to take over the team. We often put 2nd and 3rd year team members into leadership positions, so that they might hold them for 2 or so years. This helps smooth transitions between graduating classes. These students can turn to their senior counterpart for advice when needed, and when that person graduates, they have a year or more experience in the position to function on their own, and then act as mentor to another younger member.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Are your teams made up of much more than just engineering students? ie jounalist, web designers, commerce, marketing, graphic artists, etc. Our team is all engineers with one exception. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Our team is primarily engineers of varying disciplines. We typically have members from a variety of the sciences, and the occasional business/management major. Our school does not offer much in the way of degrees outside of engineering, sciences or management so those students are few and far between.

SeanZasada

03-13-2004, 03:04 AM

At the University of Manitoba, we are working towards a multi-disciplanary team. We currently have 30 members on Formula this year, with a couple Commerce students involved as well as Engineering Techologist students from a local College program. Our society as a whole ( we also have Mini-Baja and Air Cargo) has 62 members, with about 10% coming from U of M's Business school - which really helps for orgnanization, fundraising, and our Formula Sales presentation. The University's staff here doesnt really support our team. We receive no school credit, but some graduating members do their thesis based on the car. Some of us spend WAY more time on the car then we do on our classes - its like a fulltime job while trying to graduate! We do all the recruitment and fundraising ourselves, although our Engineering Endowment Fund chips in with about $9,000.00 CDN each year. The school supplies a shop for us, but its upto us to find tools and equipment (fundraising, again). As for design, its upto the team each year. Our Advisor does not dictate what to do at all. As long as we have a car built, and there is improvement each year, he is happy. With that said, when searching for new designs, the weight rests 100% on our members' shoulders. Regarding succession planning, our team is broken down into sections, and each Section Head is responsible for picking out a potential successor from his sub-team. It's tough each year as our membership levels really fluctuate. For example in 2002, myself and 2 others took our car to competition, while this year we should have 25 people going. A huge problem in the past for us has been student turnover each year, and the subsequent "reinventing the wheel" routine, which usually results in getting the car put together in the final week prior to competition! The transition from this year to next year should go smoothly as we have a relatively large team that can carry on - we lose about 8 members to graduation this year.

I like hearing about other team's organizational structure. There is no recipe for this project until you become a top 10 team I would think - then it hopefully becomes routine as a successful program brings in many interested students, which would help reduce the turnover effects each year. Correct me if I am wrong.

Sean Zasada - University of Manitoba Formula Team Leader

Michael Jones

03-13-2004, 08:44 PM

On reinventing the wheel - it's pretty important to maintain some communal history. We partially do this through technical reports we write, but that only works if you can find the right ones and you bother to read them - both challenges. It's partially done through planning for team overhead as described above. It's also partially done through keeping alumni in the loop, especially recent ones who are usually quite eager to see how things are going with later teams. A consistent advisor helps - Al George is a veritable oracle, since he's done this since 1986 and is all around one of the wisest people I know anyway.

Sean makes a good point about getting business or commerce program people involved. They can take a lot of things off the team's plate that engineers generally are loath to do. The trick is to find those that actually understand something about the car and/or are quick and eager to learn. Not only does this reduce intrateam battles between business and engineering folk, the business folk will be better at their job when they not only sound like they know what they're talking about but do.

Speaking as a Ph.D. student in communication here, with FSAE being the only engineering course I've ever taken. :-)