Who would buy these cars?

[Jim Thwaite]

Greetings!

I have seen the topic here many times (I have spent the week reading the full archives) of wether or not an SCCA racer would actually be interested in these cars if made available for purchase.

Well, Im your regular SCCA racer and the answer is a resounding YES!

Im actually getting ready to purchase an older (94 season) car to play with in SCCA autocross.

I just wanted to say on behalf of the regular guy racers I love to see what you come up with and truely admire the skills and ingenuity you display.

I understand the legal issues of selling off your old cars, as well as the finacial considerations, but I wish more of them were available.

While they may not be competitive on a national level in AMod many of us stick to a local level and just want a truely fun car with lots of potential for further tweeks and tuning.

Mostly I just wanted to introduce myself and say what a value and help these forums are, people like me, outside the FSAE realm are watching and we are very impressed http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And if Courtney Waters is reading HEY THERE! I recognized you from Mirafiori, I used to be very active there with my 128 SL, and Lancia Zagato

Hope you all dont mind an outsider poking in and once I take posession of this car I hope you will bear with some seemingly simplistic questions from a grassroots racer who doesnt have the phenominal engineering prowess you all seem to posess.

Jim

[Jim Thwaite]

Greetings!

I have seen the topic here many times (I have spent the week reading the full archives) of wether or not an SCCA racer would actually be interested in these cars if made available for purchase.

Well, Im your regular SCCA racer and the answer is a resounding YES!

Im actually getting ready to purchase an older (94 season) car to play with in SCCA autocross.

I just wanted to say on behalf of the regular guy racers I love to see what you come up with and truely admire the skills and ingenuity you display.

I understand the legal issues of selling off your old cars, as well as the finacial considerations, but I wish more of them were available.

While they may not be competitive on a national level in AMod many of us stick to a local level and just want a truely fun car with lots of potential for further tweeks and tuning.

Mostly I just wanted to introduce myself and say what a value and help these forums are, people like me, outside the FSAE realm are watching and we are very impressed http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And if Courtney Waters is reading HEY THERE! I recognized you from Mirafiori, I used to be very active there with my 128 SL, and Lancia Zagato

Hope you all dont mind an outsider poking in and once I take posession of this car I hope you will bear with some seemingly simplistic questions from a grassroots racer who doesnt have the phenominal engineering prowess you all seem to posess.

Jim

[mtg]

You can actually be competitive in SCCA autocrosses now with an FSAE car. FSAE had its own class at Nationals this year, and there was more competition in FSAE than A-Mod.

I know for 2004, the St. Louis Region SCCA is recognizing FSAE as a class. I'm sure other local regions will use an FSAE class this year or in the near future.

www.umr.edu/~formula (http://www.umr.edu/~formula)

[Joseph]

That's great to see outside interest in a FSAE car. I have thought of building my own FSAE car when I graduate. It sure would be nice to have a lot of good competition.

Joseph
University of Oklahoma
http://students.ou.edu/K/Joseph.D.Kliewer-1/rallyRace.gif

[Jim Thwaite]

I was aware of the FSAE class in SCCA now but I thought it was only open to the schools and student organizations in the FSAE competition, not folks like me who happened to build or come across a student built car.

Does anyone know the story?

It could be that these so seldom find their way into private hands that it hasnt been considered.

[Ben Beacock]

We've ran 1 local autocross with our old car and found out that the Canadian rules have a minimum wheelbase larger than our old car. (I think ~72") We were toying with the idea of selling the old car after this year, but it would need to be modified to extend the frame. How much would an overweight but bulletproof car go for? http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ben Beacock
Co-Manager
2004 Gryphon Racing - University of Guelph (http://www.soe.uoguelph.ca/uogracing)

[J. Cheng]

The current SCCA Solo2 rules make it difficult for someone other than a student owning a FSAE car. As it stands, most FSAE cars don't meet the min. wheelbase or min. weight rule for AMod. If the car is used in the FSAE class, the driver has to be one of the students if you go straightly by the book.

I have thought about this for the last few years. SCCA should really consider 2 options:

1) Drop min. weight and size for AMod, as well as restriction on traction control (I know some FSAE cars have them). This would allow old FSAE cars to run. Also, these FSAE cars can run without the restrictor and thus make them more competitive. The problem is a lot of the current competitors in AMod are dead against removing the min. weight requirement as well as allowing traction control system, arguing that it will raise the costs.

2) Allow non-students to compete in the FSAE class. In this case, I would sell my AMod car and join you guys. If this is allowed, AMod might eventually die off in my opinion. Another possibility is that with more owners running/developing FSAE cars over a longer term, an older car could be faster than current models (I believe Carroll Smith called it developement triumph over engineering). This might upset some of the student teams.

I prefer option (1). I think in the longer term, FSAE at SCCA's Nationals will grow by itself. And I think it should remain a students only class. By removing technical restrictions on current AMod, thus allowing modified FSAE cars to compete, I think that class would grow too. For those of you who are SCCA members on this list, it's time to write letters to SCCA's Mod Committee. I will be in full support of the new proposal. Contact me off list if interested.

Joe

[This message was edited by J. Cheng on February 14, 2004 at 01:19 PM.]

[Chris Boyden]

I say that if anybody that has a car that meets the FSAE SCCA regulations, then they should be able to drive. That way, old FSAE students that want to build their own car would have a cool class to race in. The power to weight ratios in A mod make it difficult to compete with the top times with an FSAE car. Therefore, there should be an FSAE class open to the public, alumni and students.

Chris

[cdorneman]

What is the min. weight in Amod, by the way?
--Casey

"Life is tough. Life is tougher if you're stupid." John Wayne

[J. Cheng]

700 lbs. without driver.

Joe

[UTA racer rikki]

Joe,

It is interesting to hear you say that you would trade your A-mod car, one of the fastest, to drive a Formula SAE car. We at UTA have been trying to catch you guys with our FSAE cars with all of our restrictions (with exception to the Aerodynamic rules).

I intend to buy the F03 or F04 car and race it in SCCA once I can get the funds for it. I however disagree with the idea of an individual (currently against SCCA rules) designing and building and FSAE car. Reasons being,

1. An individual with a small fortune is going to be capable of creating an unbelievable Formula SAE car that doesn't have to withstand the rigors and trials of a Formula SAE event. The endurance tends to smite a few cars in its wake, but if you were to design for a very limited autocrossing use, the cars would be very light etc... With no expense spared, a really light, really Aero'd FSAE car would dominate the class. My main point here is, without holding a FSAE class racecar to competition standards, then the limits placed on a true FSAE car will leave it behind.

2. Those cars never have to go through the Formula SAE "Tech" Inspection. Something required currently to ensure safety among other things in FSAE racecars.

3. The class was made, by my understanding, to promote University involvement in SCCA both locally and nationally. If you allowed individuals to begin competing with FSAE class cars that had not attended a FSAE competition, then in my humble opinion, you might again lose some of the university involvement.

So Joseph, if you were going to take the time to build an FSAE class vehicle, I would spend the extra time, and some extra budget, to build a true A-mod. I would love to catch a practice session in one of those.

Does the Aero click on? Just a joke.

I think I have said more than my share here, sorry for the lengthy post.

- Erick

FSAE ('99 '00 '01 '02 '03 '04 '??)

[James Waltman]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by UTA racer rikki:
1. An individual with a small fortune is going to be capable of creating an unbelievable Formula SAE car that doesn't have to withstand the rigors and trials of a Formula SAE event. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erick,
To me a small fortune for a FSAE car is US$30,000 to US$50,000. There are schools out there with budgets like this and free student labor. I am willing to put our car against any of them and it took us way less cash to build it. We have CNC machines and autoclaves. Does the weekend racer have those to compete with us? Do you really think that anyone will build a $250,000 FSAE car? How does A-mod deal with these concerns? I think that any car that is thoroughly sorted out would have no trouble with "rigors and trials of a Formula SAE event"�.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 2. Those cars never have to go through the Formula SAE "Tech" Inspection. Something required currently to ensure safety among other things in FSAE racecars. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the SCCA judges can judge a home built A-mod they should be qualified to judge the safety of a FSAE car. Or are you concerned with people bending the rules? Do you have to pass tech inspection in Detroit to compete at SCCA nationals?



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 3. The class was made, by my understanding, to promote University involvement in SCCA both locally and nationally. If you allowed individuals to begin competing with FSAE class cars that had not attended a FSAE competition, then in my humble opinion, you might again lose some of the university involvement. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who is going to back out of SCCA because some privateers have entered a car? I hope that we get to go to Nationals this year and I wouldn't care if we had to compete against F1 teams who fielded a car.


Jim,
Buy the car and have fun at the local autocrosses. We still take Viking 24 to the local autocrosses and have a blast. Right now it has an unrestricted 900cc engine in it. The organizers usually have us run Time Only and don't care that it doesn't fit in a class.

Joe,
I vote for option #2.

James Waltman
http://dot.etec.wwu.edu/fsae/
Vehicle Research Institute at
Western Washington University

[This message was edited by James Waltman on February 17, 2004 at 01:47 AM.]

[Jim Thwaite]

Great input by all. I have no problem with the FSAE class being restricted to students, and I do agree that if it was opened up the technical inspections and saftety issues should be paramount in the mind of SCCA to make sure some dodgy cars dont get through. As far as budgets taking over the event if that happened, I gotta say, you give the average SCCA racer way to much credit for having money http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The whole thing that interested me in the car in the first place was the affordability. You would all probably be sickened by the asking price on the car, but the Keisers and and torsen diff alone are probably worth more than the asking price.

However that being said, it is an older car and nowhere near the level of engineering and capablilites of your current cars. Most of us though dont have alot of money to spend, we have wives and families and do this for fun.

I can run the car in my local region without issue, they will put me in AMod and as there are rarely other AMod cars out there noone would complain. Its a fun club, we try not to split hairs too often.

Its come down to this car and an FMod Vee...I have to go see them both and decide from there. Being a VW guy at heart I lean toward the Vees, because I know how to fix them. But the FSAE cars definitely look like some of the most fun on wheels Ive seen in a long time.

[The guru of guru's]

So if one was to have an old sae car lying around in australia how could it be sold best?
Ne takers... do i hear 15?

You can have any colour car as long as its black. Henery Ford

[Dr. Bob Woods]

I am pleased to see all this interest in FSAE at SCCA. It is really great that FSAE has its own class and that it is attracting admiration by the likes of Joe Cheng.

The SCCA rules were designed with a couple of things in mind. First, FSAE at SCCA is open to any car that has entered the FSAE national competition since 1985 (and passed tech for that year), and must meet the current restrictor and aero rules. It is NOT limited to current student drivers of that school. The intention is that we want to encourge schools to sell their cars to former team members or at least make them available for SCCA competition. In fact I drive in SCCA and I am not a student. What is intended to be prevented is allowing an outsider to build a FSAE car to FSAE specs that has not been built by a university for the competition. Even though this was the intent when we wrote the SCCA rules for FSAE, I doubt that a professional could build a FSAE car much better than what some of these student team do!

I would encourage everyone to plead with their universities to sell the old cars and allow them to be used for what they were designed to do... race in SCCA. UTA has an ideal policy for this, I will be happy to help you encourage your univiersity to develop similar policies. Lets get more FSAE cars running in SCCA.

-Dr. Bob Woods
Faculty Adviser, UTA

[Joseph]

I haven't read the new rules pertaining to FSAE cars, but I do remember hearing that they had to have been to the FSAE competition. My only concern is how someone could maintain one of these cars without good shop access. The designs keep getting more custom with fewer off the shelf parts. Can local machine shops produce our parts at a reasonable cost like a cnc milled upright or an A-arm?

Joseph
University of Oklahoma
http://students.ou.edu/K/Joseph.D.Kliewer-1/rallyRace.gif

[Big Daddy]

If you design/build it right then it should not need replacing http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"A woman is a lot like a beer, they look good, smell good, and you would run over your own mother to get one." Homer Simpson

[MikeWaggoner at UW]

"Can local machine shops produce our parts at a reasonable cost like a cnc milled upright or an A-arm?"
-Joseph U of Ok

Individual components don't need to be replaced with exact replicas. CNC uprights can be replaced with welded (or carbon) ones.

[J. Cheng]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Woods:
...It is NOT limited to current student drivers....

...I doubt that a professional could build a FSAE car much better than what some of these student team do!....

...Lets get more FSAE cars running in SCCA....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry about the incorrect information regarding driver qualification in my first post. I didn't know the class is open for non-FSAE team members. This allowance certainly would open up opportunity for SCCA members to purchase and compete with these cars.

In terms of design and built quality, I can't comment on all the FSAE cars that have been built to date. However, of all the ones I have seen at SCCA's Nationals, certainly the UTA models (especially the last few years) can match or better any of the top pro-built race cars. If that is an indication of what other top teams are building, then there is certainly no lack of high quality cars out there.

Inorder to expand the marketability of these cars, one should look at the possibility of allowing the new owners to run without the restrictor. Revising the current A-Mod rules would open up another class for these cars. Besides, I don't believe there will be a growth problem for FSAE in SCCA. I suspect within the next few years, the class size could surpass most of the other mod classes at Nationals. It's A-Mod that's having a growth problem. A few well-designed FSAE cars on steroid can really help there.

Joe

[J. Cheng]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joseph:
The designs keep getting more custom with fewer off the shelf parts. Can local machine shops produce our parts at a reasonable cost like a cnc milled upright or an A-arm?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Machined parts are easy. It's the "custom" electronis that might pose a problem.

Joe

[Denny Trimble]

Our team only recently (two years ago) stopped producing cars with chronic drivetrain problems, so that's one thing to watch out for in shopping for FSAE cars. Diff housings take quite a bit of time in the shop to make.

These cars are lots of fun with 70RWHP, I can't imagine 90 or 100... but for higher speed SCCA courses, you could definitely use it.

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04)

[Dr. Bob Woods]

I bought the 88 car from UTA and have been driving in all SCCA events for several years. My car is 570 pounds and I do run without the restrictor for local events to help balance my 570 pounds to the 450 range of other FSAE cars.

I run turbo and methanol (M85). I am putting about 105 HP to the ground, and yes, it is hard to imagine! I get about 1 g at launch, and 0.6 g's at 70 mph. But even with that, I am no match for the real A-mods. I am not even a match for the UTA aero cars. I do run the restrictor at divisionals and nationals, or any time another A-mod shows up that is not from UTA.

-Dr. Bob Woods
Faculty Adviser, UTA

[RyanC]

Where would one go to find a FSAE car for sale or who would one talk? I am interested in what kind of prices these cars would sell for.

Ryan

[Denny Trimble]

Ryan,
Each university has a unique combination of:
-the state of their old cars
-their willingness to part with them
-their ability to legally part with them
etc.

So, you'd have to talk to the faculty advisor of a team in order to explore the possibility. There is a short list of school web sites at http://www.sae.org/students/fsaeteams.htm

(By the way, to other teams: you should let the SAE webmaster know to add your link again).

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04)

[J. Cheng]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dr. Bob Woods:
...no match for the real A-mods. I am not even a match for the UTA aero cars....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Time to get some big wings.http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

One question. You mentioned earlier that UTA has an existing policy in place relating to the sale of their cars, will UTA actually sell one of their cars to an "outsider"? Outsider meaning someone not related to the university or the team.

Joe

[clancy]

At the University of Kansas we have participated in the SCCA Solo II Nationals for the past few years. We have entered cars that were built and raced in Detroit both with student drivers and with others. We also race our cars with SCCA during the summer as often as we can. This participation not only garners fans and supporters for our FSAE Program but allows us to fully brake anything that is weak. It therefore helps us learn how to build better cars.

We have entered local events and have run 9 drivers each making four passes. Talk about an endurance challenge.

My opinion would be to limit FSAE Natiional Solo II participation to those cars that have competed in Detroit. But to completely leave open the class to anyone who wants to drive them.

That way Alumni, team supporters, sponsors or others can participate and the cars and the program can be showcased.

See ya all in Detroit....

And of course we're no way near ready. 85 days!

Clancy

[The guru of guru's]

We have a car that we would like to part with only because it is in our way. It was a compeditive car in its day, and dosent need much to get it running. If anyone knows who would like to buy it please email me. It is a 2001 car.
Cheers

You can have any colour car as long as its black. Henry Ford

[Dr. Bob Woods]

Joe,

We do have a policy in place; however, right now we are limiting the sale of a car to a team captain or former team member. That way we avoid some liability problems. We might open it up some day to interested SCCA members, but that is probably a few years off.

-Dr. Bob Woods