View Full Version : Cannondale Thumper anyone?
fsae_alum
10-03-2003, 07:14 AM
Well, since due to funding issues, it appears as though my former team is NOT going to go this route, I thought I'd bring this idea up. Has anybody looked at using a Cannondale 440 Thumper for an engine? The reason I ask is because you might want to. Yeah Yeah...it's a thumper...but wait, here's what it has that most other thumpers don't: user programmable Fuel Injection, available on the fly selection between different fuel maps (acceleration event vs endurance event), dry sump system, TORQUE, low weight (car can be lighter too), intake is on the FRONT of the head and exhaust is on the BACK of the engine (straight shot in and out). From a design standpoint an ATV thumper looks appealing in that it is already geared to to about the top speed of a typical FSAE car. A thumper only has ONE intake runner and ONE exhaust runner to worry about too. Lastly, if you're worried about the power, there are shops out there that can punch the engine out and get more power out of it. Just thought I'd pass it along for everybody!!!
In spite of...
fsae_alum
10-03-2003, 07:14 AM
Well, since due to funding issues, it appears as though my former team is NOT going to go this route, I thought I'd bring this idea up. Has anybody looked at using a Cannondale 440 Thumper for an engine? The reason I ask is because you might want to. Yeah Yeah...it's a thumper...but wait, here's what it has that most other thumpers don't: user programmable Fuel Injection, available on the fly selection between different fuel maps (acceleration event vs endurance event), dry sump system, TORQUE, low weight (car can be lighter too), intake is on the FRONT of the head and exhaust is on the BACK of the engine (straight shot in and out). From a design standpoint an ATV thumper looks appealing in that it is already geared to to about the top speed of a typical FSAE car. A thumper only has ONE intake runner and ONE exhaust runner to worry about too. Lastly, if you're worried about the power, there are shops out there that can punch the engine out and get more power out of it. Just thought I'd pass it along for everybody!!!
In spite of...
But remember you will need something like a super- or turbocharger to get a reasonable amount of air through your restrictor. Having only one big pulse of air instead of four small ones is a bit hard on airflow.
You also get rather interesting torque peaks for the rest of your driveline. (about four times what you would get out of your 4 cylinder)
Igor
Delft University
fsae_alum
10-03-2003, 08:50 AM
Ahhhh....but being that it is a smaller engine it SHOULD require less air. Don't know how much of an effect the restrictor will have on it when compared to say and F4i. I say this because the intake runner size for the Cannondale is MUCH smaller than an F4i. Suppose an engine simulation could be run in Ricardo or Virtual 4 stroke to see all of this. Mind you, the Cannondale also only rev's to around 10k, so the restrictor shouldn't hurt it as much as an engine that revs to 14.5k
In spite of...
awhittle
10-04-2003, 06:55 AM
Could you have the restrictor, then a large air chamber then a throttle body then the tuned intake runner. I bet the air chamber at would even out the airflow thru the restrictor. You may even get the thing to resonate at just the right time. search for aem and v2 intakes or goto http://www.aempower.com/product_intake.asp The rice guys do this all the time.
Banshee 2 cycle twins are cute...
Just thinking outloud.
PatClarke
10-04-2003, 07:11 AM
But the rules don't allow this. You have the throttle body first, then the restrictor etc.
PDR
Rudeness is a weak mans imitation of strength
fsae_alum
10-04-2003, 09:12 AM
A bike nut actually told me yesterday that the pulses that a thumper generates (as mentioned by Igor) actually HELP in providing better traction. I'm neutral on this one because I haven't really seen any scientific data, but it is a possability!!
In spite of...
I would agree with that. It has to do with the # of degrees of crankshaft rotation between power pulses. With a single you get @270 degrees of rotation with most 4 cyl's it's every 90 degrees. If your tire breaks loose on a 4 cyl there is another power pulse right there to keep it spinning. With a single, there is a long time for the tire to regain traction before the cylinder fires again.
Mechanicaldan
10-07-2003, 07:30 PM
Yes, been over this one personally. There is actually a post I started about the possiblity of a single being competitive.
To be competitive with the lack of power of a single, the car needs to weight 300 lbs. I thought it was almost impossible.
Well, who was the team at Formula Student team that had almost a complete carbon fiber car with a supercharged KTM single? It is possible, just not easy.
So, if you have the time and resourses and are willing to do 3 times the work of 75% of the other FSAE teams to build a competitive single cylinder formula car, go ahead.
We will be taking the traditional route of a 4 cylinder, because it is easier and cheaper while remaining competitive. How do I know? 22nd last year with 1 day of driving time before FSAE competiton.
Cyclone Racing
www.cyclone-racing.com/fhome.htm (http://www.cyclone-racing.com/fhome.htm)
Iowa State University
Project Director
Didier Beaudoin
10-08-2003, 05:15 PM
It's Delft.
Didier Beaudoin
Team Leader -
École Nationale d'Aérotechnique
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Didier Beaudoin:
It's Delft.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
l&l&lol. i dont know if he is trying to be funny or not, but if he isnt that just makes it even more funny. maybe the french dont have rhetorical questions?
- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.
fsae_alum
10-09-2003, 11:21 AM
That's what I was thinking!!!! I remember a particular Japanese team having a thumper and the judges were quite impressed with it...until they went to sit in it at which point they coudn't fit. Judges liked the overall design from what I heard.
In spite of...
Didier Beaudoin
10-09-2003, 01:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gug:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Didier Beaudoin:
It's Delft.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
l&l&lol. i dont know if he is trying to be funny or not, but if he isnt that just makes it even more funny. maybe the french dont have rhetorical questions?
- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
???
I was replying to Daninowa's question asking which was the Formula student team that had a carbon fiber car and a KTM engine...
Didier Beaudoin
Team Leader -
École Nationale d'Aérotechnique
sorry about that, im sure i wouldnt get it if you asked me a rhetorical question in french.
- if it isnt coming, you need a bigger tool.
PatClarke
10-10-2003, 01:46 AM
Alum, The car you mention is the car Tokyo Denki debuted in Australia last November and then took to the US in May.
It was beautifully designed, tiny light and went quite fast in Australia considering it's lack of testing. By Pontiac, the team had done over 2000km of testing, and it was very well worn, and so suffered reliability problems.
Several pundits suggested this was the new direction of FSAE, and they might be right!
In the Australian event pix on the pictures page there are a couple of shots of the car. It was also highlighted in the latest RaceTech magazine.
The car was tight, but legal for cockpit dimensions, and several 'normal' sized people tried it for size.
For a debut team it was an excellent effort, and I look forward to seeing what they bring to Australia this year.
PDR
Rudeness is a weak mans imitation of strength
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.