Doing well at competitoin

[vinHonda]

Curious to know people's opinions:

So many cars conk out of Endurance for stupid things and/or because they've never been driven before.

Perhaps this competition is more of a manufacturing and organizational challenge above all? Who can get their cars done really really early so they can be tested and driven A LOT.

So how far are teams with their 2004 pontiac cars at this time? And when do you anticipate to begin your testing programs?

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[vinHonda]

Curious to know people's opinions:

So many cars conk out of Endurance for stupid things and/or because they've never been driven before.

Perhaps this competition is more of a manufacturing and organizational challenge above all? Who can get their cars done really really early so they can be tested and driven A LOT.

So how far are teams with their 2004 pontiac cars at this time? And when do you anticipate to begin your testing programs?

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[Brent Howard]

I never really looked at it that way Vin, but I agree, if we had 2-3 months of test time before Detroit may of our issues would have been solved. Currently I'm advocating skipping Detroit and raising the money for Formula Student, because it's only 40 days later. Then we would have a car that could compete legally in Detroit for the 2005 season done in the 2004 season. We won't do it, but it might not be a terrible idea,.....having alot of testing time I'm sure helped wollongong last year.

Anyway, right now our car is a tacked chassis, an engine that is pretty much still crated, and a whole bunch of A-arm tubes and pushrods. However, this is much much better than any previous year where construction didn't even begin until after Christmas break http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Brent

www.ucalgary.ca/fsae (http://www.ucalgary.ca/fsae)

[vinHonda]

Sounds like us. But we're on target for a running car Feb1st.

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[Michael Jones]

Testing is everything of course...should be enough time if you get the car running by Feb 1, spend your time judiciously until May, and not smash into any $*()@%&)% curbs a week and a half before competition.

How does the first-year rule work with the three competitions, anyway? I suppose it's a calendar year since entry in the first competition? If so, the F-Student as first-entry thing is legal. Sneaky, but legal. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Would also be effective for us foul-weather teams - in Toronto, Calgary or Ithaca, finishing by late January/early February is almost moot, since it's too cold or snowy to do much testing.

As for us, still in design, but on schedule for Feb 1...our main manufacturing push is in January, when we have a rather insane amount of time off (classes don't start until January 26th this year...) A real hardcore gig - average team member spends about 50+ hours/wk in here during that time. Good for team morale too, since the energy is pretty contagious.

---
Michael Jones
Coordinator, Student Project Teams, College of Engineering

Cornell Racing
http://fsae.mae.cornell.edu

[PatClarke]

Hi Michael,
Your supposition is correct. A cars 'life' starts at the beginning of its first event, and can compete at all events in the series for the next year.
The only drawback is that if there is a change of rules on Jan 1, then the can may have to be modfied (UOW 2002/3 for example).
And if you foul weather teams are really bothered by time and the constraints of snow and ice, then remember there is a perfectly good FSAE event in Australia each December, with sun, surf, cold beer and Aussie 'sheilas' http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
PDR

Rudeness is a weak mans imitation of strength

[Lyn Labahn UW-Madison]

The secret really is testing time, and incrementally changing your designs. Making sure you carefully prepare the car the week before competition is always key. Fresh fuel filter, new battery, examine cables, check for cracks in suspension members, lubricate all moving parts....

As for our schedule this year, we set our goal to have the frame complete before Jan 1st, and hopefully have the car rolling/running beginning of Feb.

[Dick Golembiewski]

Oh my Irish rodent friend,

You are again making me wish I could judge in Oz this year.

Of course with all the snakes around, rodents must be worried....<grin>

- Dick

[Brent Howard]

Pat,

I'm pretty sure most of the foul weather teams would love to go to Australia...just a question of money. I agree with Micheal about finishing a car fairly early here doesn't have much point because you can't do much tuning on ice. Can't really complain this year though as it's still +15 in Calgary and we have only had snow once. Last year was an entirely different story though. We had a few nice days in april (car wasn't done though), but then May came and we got 4 feet of snow in 2 weekends and weren't able to get to the university to even assemble things let alone test. This year we are going to try and find an indoor test track...maybe an aircraft hanger or something. Any teams had much luck with indoor testing facilities??

Brent

www.ucalgary.ca/fsae (http://www.ucalgary.ca/fsae)

[PatClarke]

Hi Dick,
Didn't you know, St. Patrick drove all the snakes out of Ireland!....And banished them to Australia, I'm sure =]
Snakes won't be a worry at Tailem Bend, there isn't a high enough SPF sunblock for them
http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifPat

Rudeness is a weak mans imitation of strength

[Steve Yao]

Our team has acknowledged that one of, if not the biggest, challenge is not in designing or manufacturing the vehicle, but in organizing and managing the team to get it done, and getting it done early.

-Steve Yao

[vinHonda]

Pat, we are looking to raise the funds to go to Australia w/ our 2004 car. The reason we couldn't go w/ 03 is because there was too much publicity/events (our Shootout had over 17 cars and 14 teams! http://fsae.utoronto.ca/2002/100203.html ) to cover between coming back from the UK and preparing for Australia. Funds was also an issue....but our Dean was happy with FStudent results...he woulda let us go.

Hopefully w/ good results in 2004, we'll make it down under! I wanna meet some Sheila's.

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[gus]

no doubt you can't be competitive at comp without finishing endurance, but you don't have to finish your car and get tons of testing in to do it. Every year, we finish our car no more than 1 week before comp. Last year, we finished 22nd over all. While LOTS of rethinking everything allowed a "fresh" car to finish endurance, we could have made TONS more points if we were faster (we finished 22nd with pretty lousy driving). Finishing your car early also wil allow you to get CRITICAL driver testing as well as durability. This is key, and why we wanna drive well before comp for once.

Gus Aramayo II
Iowa State Cyclone Racing
Engine Team Co-Captain

[Charlie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vinHonda:
Perhaps this competition is more of a manufacturing and organizational challenge above all? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Vin, you have a good point, but above all? I don't think so. Without organization, a team might never make it to competition. But once you get to the level that brings you to the competition, then what? If you have lots of testing time, what do you do with it? There, the expertise comes in.

It is a very careful balance between the two. We had a car with was IMO capable of a top 10 finish in 2002. We could have decided testing and refining would have brought us to that level for 2003. Instead, we built an almost entirely new design (only carryovers-engine, calipers, rear hubs, tires, lug nuts). We had only about 3 weeks to test (a lot less than in 2002), with plenty of time-consuming problems in that period. But our design was the reason we improved so much in 2003.

Organization is probably one of the most overlooked issues though, when engineers just want to engineer, and not worry about deadlines http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE (http://eng.auburn.edu/organizations/SAE/AUFSAE)
5th Overall Detroit 2003
? Overall Aussie 2003. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Denny Trimble]

While we're talking strategy, I'll tell the story of the 1999 UW team. We made major design changes (13" wheels instead of 10's, complete frame redesign, Honda F2 instead of Yamaha YZF, new shocks, etc), but we were still able to get the car done in time for about 5 weeks of testing if I recall correctly. (we abandoned our CAD system due to corrupt files, and completed the design on full scale graph paper. yeeha!)

We drove the previous car all year long, which paid off greatly in terms of driver skill and car prep lessons.

In our testing of the new car, we broke a few halfshafts, had a major suspension failure, and worked out endless bugs. The week of competition, the car was wonderful. The only thing we had to do to the car in Detroit was to change the oil.

We didn't do so well in design, 50th place or so. No preparation and very poor presentation, and a car that didn't jump up and speak for itself.

On the track, however, it was a different story. 3rd place in endurance, with the 2nd best time, gave us 5th overall.

The competition has stepped up dramatically since then, and design points are still critical. But in the end, 650 points go to the performance of the car/driver/prep team. And you'll only get that with lots and lots of testing.

Now if we can only figure out the whole don't-spin-into-cones-at-40MPH thing...

University of Washington Formula SAE ('98, '99, '03, '04)

[vinHonda]

We're a fairly young team. Only having built 5 cars. And I agree with you Charlie, when you say....what about once you have reached the organizational level? When your team has got the faculty support, facilities, dedicated sponsors, good faculty advisor, structure, alumni knowledge base, etc. etc.......

We're kinda sorta maybe starting to reach that level. But the fact is, we have to work pretty hard to stay organized. Like you said..... engineers like to engineer and build.....not think about deadlines and crackng the whip on others.

But Danny's comment about getting your drivers trained is a HUGE part too i think. His story of 1999 is a true example of the importance of having solid confident drivers.

It's interesting to hear about how formula sae programs work at the different schools work. I've heard and seen quite the variety.........from Guelph who has 4 guys, their own tools from home and a closet at the university.....to well.....UTA.

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[Ben Beacock]

Hey.. our shop was never a closet http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rtsp://uogracing.homeip.net:522/encoder/shop.rm
Shop webcam - you'll need realplayer to see it

but it was only a handful of us and mostly my tools from home. We did a pretty good number on a mitre saw that we used as a chop saw.

Ben Beacock
Co-Manager
2004 Gryphon Racing - University of Guelph

[vinHonda]

Whops! Ya. that's McMaster that lives outta the closet. But my point was.......a valiant effort from Guelph to build a VERY quick car in their first year w/ limited resources.

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[Alfonso Ochoa]

Ok....I tottally agree in the matter of the practice time being the key, or a huge key to succes here. But I don't agree in that of this being a Manufaturing and organizational challenge.
First of all, why if I think everybody knows about it....just like 10 universities (i don't really know the number am just throwing something to make clear that very few make it) finish their car on schedule and 3 or at least two months from Detroit. I declare guilty of this too...
But knowing this, there are at least 10 to 15 universities that have the car done in time and with plenty of practice time before May, those 15 univs are those over the average (if you think of the gauss bell, spanish tranlation)...within that 10 % over the average is not a manufacturing challenge, is all a mixture of experience, logistics, quality of the car (so many things in here) and of course, the always present luck....
Keep it going guys...lets make it at least 30 univs for this year. Cheers,
Alfonso Ochoa.

Alfonso Ochoa Vega
cabezota311@hotmail.com
F-SAE USB Team, Venezuela

[Mad Ruska]

I think you should be prepared in both. The first two years we finished our car a few hours before competition. And we failed both times. Because we managet to go to Australia 2001 we started to prepare a car very early before competition. The same car how failed in UK finished 7th in Australia. Reason: Testing.
One year later we finiehed the car 2 month before comp. We had over 1000 km´s of testing and figuered out a lot of different setups for the car. We found out every problem. And it is a nice feeling when the team in the pit bext to you try to start the engine the 100th time and just push the button and the engine runs.
Very importend is that you orenize the time for testing very well. You don´t have any advantages when your car stands 4 weeks in the workshop because nothing is prepared. The 2003 car which will come to US next year was finished again 2 month before. We tested nearly everything and had again lots of testing km. And whats happend, a part we use since 3 years in the car and on the dyno with no problems ever failed. Price 0,10$. Otherwise a small University form the north of Germany would be compare to toronto in uk this year. But ones more FSAE its not all about racing, its about learning and friendship. So the knowledge that our car coul be win FS2003 in Uk was the fantastic.

My tipp for all teams, try to use your recources. Why buikd your own brakecalipers when you can buy them for less money. And try to finish early and use the time for TESTING, and last but most importand, bring german beer to the event after party and you will find a lots of friend.

Cheers Vinh

Frank "Ruska" Roeske
Student Racing team 99-03

[vinHonda]

WHUTZ up Frank!! My team and I are looking forward to more of that German beer in Detroit this year!!! I hope it passes customs!

Straslund is one hell of a good team. We kept our eye on them. Up until before enduro, we led them by a mere 17 points....which ironically was what GT beat us by overall in 2002!....... but me and my other driver drove a mean enduro.....

Looking forward to seeing you in Detroit in 2004!.... we'll have a new car tho!

Vinh

University of Toronto Formula SAE Racing Team
www.fsae.utoronto.ca (http://www.fsae.utoronto.ca)

[leclercjs]

Hello all,

our model chassis is finished and construction of 2004 frame and other parts will debut during Christmas 2003 (as many teams) and we have set the date of the first rollout for the first week of march (the suppose reading week :-), and yeah, it is late, but in Montreal, the temperature doesnt raise to 5C before the beginning of March) This year car has been designed to endure 2 major races, FSAE and FS. So, we have a lot of prep and lot of management to do. As other said, a mix of the two is probably the best way to go. So if the car does not perform as well as it supposed to, but managed to finish all dynamic events, you have the chance to impress in the static events.

C ya

JS

Jean Sébastien Leclerc
Dir. Formule SAE Poly 2004
http://www.fsae.polymtl.ca