View Full Version : Engine Discussion
Richard Lewis
10-03-2002, 11:06 AM
Since I am our engine development leader, and there has been very little said about engines so far on this board, I thought I'd start up a topic. I'm interested in what type of modifications other schools are doing to their engines, specifically those using 600cc sportbike engines. I'll happily share our list as it is right now:
-Custom 304SS exhaust manifold
-Aluminum/fiberglass intake manifold, restrictor
-EM TEC-II engine manangement system
-RC Injectors
-Adjustable cam sprockets
-Manual cam chain tensioner (we're using a GSX-R engine, and this is a weak point)
-Custom aluminum radiator
Its by no means a revolutionary engine design, but what we're going for is reliability, then performance. I'm not interested in big HP numbers at all, I just want a very driveable engine that won't let us down in detroit. (or after that)
What are you other guys up to as far as engines go?
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Marc Jaxa-Rozen
10-03-2002, 01:07 PM
Lots of drawings but very little built here, as we'll start out by keeping the engine mostly stock, except for the exhaust, for our first tests. We're using a CBR600F2 engine and the carbs will stay on until we have time to switch to an EFI system, probably after suspension testing is completed (being a three-and-a-half person team, we just don't have the resources for serious parallel development /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif)
Our restrictor will be CNC-machined aluminium with a sheet metal manifold, while the exhaust is made with 304 stainless- nothing too fancy. I mostly used some of my own codes as well as a general-purpose 2D flow solver for design purposes.
I briefly considered some head work but it's probably not worth the trouble; I know light port & polishing can have a significant effect on these engines but the restricted airflow would likely offset these gains.
FFgeoff
11-03-2002, 09:22 AM
dont port the heads. the gains to be had are more than likely going to be detrimental, usually the only gains on cbr 600 motors are from doing a clover leaf in the combustion chamber by welding in between the valves, and that is often attributed simply to higher compression ratios. If someone made power by basic porting (particularly one of the FSAE teams) id love to see their flowbench #s. They would have to use some bizarre cam to make power, especially considering the restrictor. Is anyone custom grinding cams?
we are the music makers and we are the dreamers of the dreams
--willy wonka
Charlie
11-03-2002, 07:06 PM
I'd agree that the ports are probably plenty big for the reduced velocity, and polishing would probably hurt atomization.
I built our past two headers from mild steel and had them coated. Any particular reason you went with Stainless vs. mild steel? I imagine it's be lighter but harder to properly weld and much more expensive.
-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE 1999-present
As stated by many of the judges your engine will not win the competition. Reliability should be of more consideration than power.
A couple things to keep in mind is to reduce weight (reciprocating is huge) and keep power available. A lot of this deals with power transfer from the engine to the ground.
Something learned is that Titanium headers, while expensive, are light. We saved 8lbs when switching from mild steel. As the part is not structural a perfectly inert atmosphere is not required to weld them.
Ian Dawkins
Ian Dawkins
Michigan Tech
Engine Group
Charlie
11-04-2002, 07:25 PM
I looked into it with a mild interest last year. I could not find 1-3/8" titanium mandrel bends. I didn't spend days looking, but do you have a source? We've determined that 1-1/2" is not optimal.
-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE 1999-present
Richard Lewis
11-05-2002, 12:03 AM
Try burns stainless, at www.burnsstainless.com (http://www.burnsstainless.com)
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UVIC Formula SAE Team
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U of S Engine
11-05-2002, 09:07 AM
Has anyone ever made significant gains by porting and polishing their head with the restrictor? We here at the U of S are seriously considering, but want to know if it's worth the time (2 or 3 weeks without a head), the money, or the effort. If anyone knows whether or not this is a feasible step to take, please give your $0.02, as it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks
Kevin Hall
Charlie
11-05-2002, 03:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard Lewis:
Try burns stainless, at http://www.burnsstainless.com
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They do not list 1 3/8, do you know that they carry it?
-Charlie Ping
Auburn University FSAE 1999-present
Richard Lewis
11-05-2002, 07:02 PM
Ooops no, I just thought you were looking for titanium mandrel bends in general.
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UVIC Formula SAE Team
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Bam Bam
11-07-2002, 09:23 PM
I don't have any flow bench data yet but think of it this way. Additional air flow losses ANYWHERE on a restricted engine are massive because air is the limiting factor in performance. Otherwise we'd all be pumping out over 100 hp.
So you port your valves, get slightly better flow, that flow will translate DIRECTLY into engine power as opposed to an unrestricted bike engine that doesn't really care because it's got plenty of air to begin with so losses are less significant.
I figure it would be worth it if you've got a local shop to do it.
That's my $.02
Bam Bam
11-07-2002, 09:31 PM
Anybody calculated the engleman port inductance for the CBR F4i?.... wanna help a brother out.....
FFgeoff
11-10-2002, 12:06 PM
man just gonna get a "local shop" to port a head? You are in for a big surprise, if youre logic is that "well porting must be good becuase we already have a restrictor!" you are in for a big surprise
For what its worth, on a 1.8L honda gsr engine, we made 943 HP at the wheels with a STOCK STOCK STOCK port size and valve size. yeah there was no restrictor, yeah there was a turbo, but that head is intended to flow 140 hp at the wheels.
we are the music makers and we are the dreamers of the dreams
--willy wonka
ericwort
11-11-2002, 02:25 AM
Yeah, the last thing these bike heads need is port work. IMO, the only possible gain to be had in the head is cleaning up any flashing and possibly a little work around the valves.
The biggest gains in FSAE come from fine tuning your engine management system to make the car easier to drive.
Kevin Hall
11-12-2002, 10:55 AM
We have decided against porting. We may investigate a three angle valve grind, as we have a spare head, and could get a set ground, and flow bench to see the difference. Dyno testing has been under way for a while now, and is proving to be the most useful tool anyone can use. Our idle has drastically improved, and the engine comes closer to being "drivable" every week. Thanks for all your help. Good luck.
http://www.engr.usask.ca/~sae/
Schumi_Jr
11-12-2002, 11:09 AM
quoting Ian Dawkins:
"your engine will not win the competition. Reliability should be of more consideration than power."
I'm sure you'll be saying that when Cornell laps you at the endurance with their 85+ horsepower engine.
Bam Bam
11-12-2002, 11:11 PM
FFGeoff...
Imagine how much power you would've got if you ported properly instead of wasting your time increasing turbo boost trying to force air through ports that were CLEARLY too small
Let her breathe baby............
let her breathe....
Jeff Curtis
11-13-2002, 02:12 PM
Look at skidpad G's that's where the speed is on a track. I do have to say Cornell has a good engine package but not because the peak power. Peak power that was generated on the chassis dyno was boosted hard and running rich, both bad for reliability and fuel economy (therefor not used in the endurance run).
The thing that is good about Cornell's engine package is a very wide drivable power curve. We are not professional drivers and we do make mistakes. Good bottom end torque allows for a lot less gear shifts (count up the number of shifts then multiply it by "shift times" and then factor in percentage of missed shifts and it will equal a ton of time over an endurance race) and will result into a more forgiving engine package.
Jeff
Displayname
11-14-2002, 02:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FFgeoff:
For what its worth, on a 1.8L honda gsr engine, we made 943 HP at the wheels with a STOCK STOCK STOCK port size and valve size. yeah there was no restrictor, yeah there was a turbo, but that head is intended to flow 140 hp at the wheels.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wanna see some dyno run results. And that doesn't mean engine dyno, i want to see h.p. "at the wheels". What kind of chain could take that power, and how did you not shred your tires, let alone dyno a 900+hp bike in the first place? Again, none of these poser calculations to prove the power, I want dyno graphs!
Dominic Venieri
11-14-2002, 03:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Displayname:
I wanna see some dyno run results. And that doesn't mean engine dyno, i want to see h.p. "at the wheels". What kind of chain could take that power, and how did you not shred your tires, let alone dyno a 900+hp bike in the first place? Again, none of these poser calculations to prove the power, I want dyno graphs!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
He's not talking about a bike engine, he's talking about the 1.8L Honda engine in the Integra GSR, the B18c. This is the popular engine of choice for many front engine/fwd dragsters, and the HP #s are semi-believable. So no chain involved, and they make plenty of tires that can handle those HP levels.
www.formularpi.com (http://www.formularpi.com)
FFgeoff
11-17-2002, 11:33 PM
please dont get a 3 angle valve job, the stock head already comes with a 5 angle job.
please dont tell me how much more power we would have gotten with a properly ported head blah blah blah. We have had everyone go over heads from Portflow, DPR, Alaniz, everyone. M2 went over a head (they make billet heads for custom apps) and said to basically leave the ports alone. Minimal gains would be had. We have a more exotic head on the car now and not muchof a change. Dont tell me the ports are clearly too small when you havent got a clue what you are talking about. The internet has enough misinformation on it, we dont need more.
port size and r/s ratios are another discussion for another post. If you want to get into that, start the thread up.
our power WAS "at the wheels" and no chain. The dyno plots are not my property to display and i couldnt care less if you believed me or not. The power calculations are out the window, the engine dyno was never used (honda motors spin backwards) and the car goes 8s. if you would like to discuss this more email me.
... yeah what dominic said
STFUPTY
we are the music makers and we are the dreamers of the dreams
--willy wonka
Dominic Venieri
11-22-2002, 08:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard Lewis:
I'm interested in what type of modifications other schools are doing to their engines, specifically those using 600cc sportbike engines. I'll happily share our list as it is right now:
.....
What are you other guys up to as far as engines go?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I was reading back to the start of this thread, and found it kinda funny that no one has shared any of those details /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
www.formularpi.com (http://www.formularpi.com)
Richard Lewis
11-22-2002, 11:50 AM
Yeah I think people are believing that they have to be secret about their engines, ala formula 1. Personally I have my own ideas of what is required to make a good engine for this competition (as outlined in my first post) and I was just wondering what others were doing. My opinions haven't changed...
Anyway, does anyone actually want to respond to the question asked?
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U of S Engine
11-24-2002, 01:25 PM
Well, for that matter, yeah, i want to respond. We are currently making NO internal mods to our engine just to keep it simple and reliable. We are Planning on tuning more than anything. There is much drivability to be had in simple tuning. Lack of funding makes it hard to really do anything special, so our concentration is on intake and exhaust configuration. Currently, our exhaust has adjustable primary and secondary lengths, and our hope is to implement continuously variable intake. If it doesn't work, we'll lock it in one spot, and hope for the best. Reagrdless, whatever we use will be tested. That has been our downfall thus far. I hope someone will let us in on their "secret" as to their actual internal mods. We can't afford to lose $2000 CDN to an engine meltdown.
Kevin Hall
U of S Huskies Racing
Formulastudent
12-18-2002, 11:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Richard Lewis:
Anyway, does anyone actually want to respond to the question asked?
I will. In the past we have run some natural motors and some blown motors. No differnce in peak HP, only torque, but at the cost of weight. One year we drag raced one of old N/A cars ('96 to be exact) against our 3rd place supercharged '00 car. and it was a close finish. The '96 car was much lighter because it lacked the 100+ lbs of electronics needed to push the blower. It sounds like you are on the right track. I have some experience with a TEC II (no programming though) and I dont like it. The rev limiter is too low, and it is not reliable. That may be due to our sensors, but it seems that it never works the same way twice. Now, that's just my experience as a driver/mechanic with a CBR F2. This year we are running a '01 GSX-R with the stock ECU with a Yoshimura EMS unit.
To throw in my $.02 plus change about the other topics (port and polish, cams). I agree that porting and polishing these motors is a bad idea, we need to keep air velocity up, and get good atomization of fuel to get better efficiency. Since our flow rate is limited by the restrictor, area plays a big role in how fast air is getting shoved into the chamber. Keep the valves small, and leave cam lift alone. If you have to mess with cams, only play with duration. The higher the lift, the greater the pulse that the restrictor experiences and that will choke the engine at higher revs. Longer duration makes the flow through the restrictor more laminar, thus higher velocity at high revs = more power.
I do have a question about the GSX-R. You said that you are messing with the timing chain tensioner because it is a weak link. Please explain more about this, I don't have much experience with the gixxer and I'd like to know as much as I can about possible problems. Also, what kind of (radiator) volume are you Suzuki teams running and have you messed with the thermostat at all?
Thanks
Dave
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_UVIC Formula SAE Team_
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Spike
12-19-2002, 07:37 PM
The '99 GSX-R's had a problem with the cam chain tensioner. I had mine fail on my race bike in the middle of a qualifying session. Luckily I noticed it as soon as it happened and rode off the track. There was a recall in 99 but unfortunately the new part was also know to fail.
Formulastudent
12-23-2002, 12:28 AM
Is the '99 GSXR the "same" motor as the '01 (chain tensioner wise).
Sorry, but after 3 years with Honda, this is my first Suzuki.
Alfonso Ochoa
12-27-2002, 07:32 PM
Hi, I'm the engine leader of the Universidad Simon Bolivar in Venezuela.
We are now in a National strike since December the 2nd and we have been unable to work since then.
We are using a CBR 600 F4i for the 2nd year in a row.
We are going to use a custom made throttle, fiber glass restrictor, aluminium cilindrical plenum (not yet determined the final volume), fiber glass pipe ends, aluminium pipes.
We are building the injectors's body to reduce weight.
In the exhaust, we are using a custom header (stainless steel hopefully) with one muffler.
We are going to use the stock ECM and not going to make any modification to the engine parts.
We are getting the 4-stroke virtual engine, it's supposed to be here on january the 6th.
IMO, I think all the engine works should be towards optimizing the intake and exhaust configurations and trying to reduce as much as you can the weigth of them, unfortunately we do not have acces to the ideal materials here in Venezuela such as carbon fiber or titanium, and there are expensive. You all should be aware that we are using very optimized engines (yamaha, susuki, honda, etc), running with a restrictor and you are not going to get much more power using the common street tunning tricks. But as I said, that's my opinion.
Sorry for the lenght. I'll be glad to here others team works and opinions, take care,
Alfonso Ochoa
Engine Division Leader
F-SAE USB, Venezuela.
Spike
12-27-2002, 09:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Formulastudent:
Is the '99 GSXR the "same" motor as the '01 (chain tensioner wise).
Sorry, but after 3 years with Honda, this is my first Suzuki.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No the '01 is a total new engine. But some of them still have a tensioner problem. I think for 45USD people are silly not to get the manual one. GSX-R Zone (http://www.gsxrzone.com)
David Martins
01-05-2003, 11:24 AM
Hi, i´m from venezuela, as you know in this moment here in our country we are pasing trought great problems because there is national strike against our president chavez..(i support the strike), well my point here is any body of you knows why the cbr 600 f4i engine can´t get an stable operation even with it´s original throttle body.. yesterday we turn on the new engine with it´s throttle and it turned on easily but worked little unesteady, then we turned of and few minutes later we try to start it and can´t turn it on.. we think that the engine could be a lot of time without use that could make difficult worked with it, but i think that the cause can be other,electronic stuff, any body knows anything about this, we will appreciate your opinion
Bam Bam
01-05-2003, 03:46 PM
Dude there could be a million reasons why your engine isn't started but I'll help you through them.
My email is tooleboy@hotmail.com if you wanna do this a little quicker. Everyone will have a million different ideas and may send you scrambling to do a million differnt things.
I don't know what your using (injectors coils custom trigger wheels ECU etc) So I can't nail down your problem but I guarantee with more info we can get er started.
I'll start with the obvious if you haven't checked these yet go for it
#1 check to make sure your battery is still good easiest way is to try a new battery or one from your car that you know has some juice.
#2 make sure the engine has got oil that's not sludge. The F4i was a 2000 or 2001 engine so provided there is oil in it should be good enough to move.
#3 You say you're using the stock TB does this include the air box and is the map sensor (One of 2 sensor that came with the airbox connected
#4 what ECU are you using to run the engine.
#5.You say you go the stock TB but make sure you have a MAP sensor into your ECU or you won't get very far.
If this get's you on your feet great. But I'm guessing you've already got this far.
Let me know.
ANDONI
01-06-2003, 11:09 AM
Hello everyone.
I hope your progres for Detroit is going alright. We got our Virtual Engine software package a few days ago. We haven´t found some data required to run the software with our configuration. We are running a HONDA CBR 600 F4i and need the following:
* connecting rod length
* piston height and compression height
* squish clearance
* clearance volume
* valves diameter and lift
We would appreciate very much if anyone could give us that data. Sadly, we can only work on computer right now, since all supliers and and stores are close because of the strike.
Thanks a lot..
ANDONI MAZEIKA
F-SAE USB
www.formulasaeusb.com (http://www.formulasaeusb.com)
Andoni Mazeika
2002-2003 Team Leader
Equipo F-SAE USB
Universidad Simon Bolivar
VENEZULA
David Money
01-07-2003, 08:38 AM
As to why your F4i isn't working.... well, we went out and bought an F4i BRAND NEW from the showroom in April 2001 to use in the May 2001 competition. We discovered that if you're using the F4i ECU/ECM and if you don't have the following, the engine will not run very easily:
Bank Angle Sensor
Key Switch Assy (very big and bulky)
Factory ECU/ECM
2 relays that are used on bike
Transistor Pack
Inlet Air Temperature Sensor
Factory gauge cluster
If you don not have the above the engine will probably not run at all. I would suggest trying to use everything factory. We have been using it all for 2 years now and have had no problems. By using everything factory, you can use the diagnostic mode of the ECU/ECM and gauge cluster to diagnose and determine Fuel Injection problems. When we stripped the bike after putting 500 miles on it it only took us 2 days to have the engine in the car and running with no problems. Haven't had a problem since!!
Wizard
01-08-2003, 03:15 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by David Money:
Bank Angle Sensor
Key Switch Assy (very big and bulky)
Factory ECU/ECM
2 relays that are used on bike
Transistor Pack
Inlet Air Temperature Sensor
Factory gauge cluster
QUOTE]
Since it is January I can give you a hint. YOU NEED A KEY SWITCH ASSY.
"It's not a place you can get to by a boat or a train. It's far, far away. Behind the moon, beyond the rain..."
David Money
01-09-2003, 06:35 AM
That's one of the MANY things that I listed that David Martins from Venezuela needs to get his engine running properly if he wants to do it plug and play style.
Wizard
01-09-2003, 08:57 AM
I apologize, when I first read the post I had thought they had problems starting the motor. You need the key switch assembly to start the motor using the stock ecu (I am talking to you pink wire).
[This message was edited by Wizard on January 09, 2003 at 11:07 AM.]
David Martins
01-09-2003, 04:36 PM
well i really apreciate the help that David Money is giving to us. I think that David Money is right when we are going to start our new engine for the first time we should keep the original factory stuff and then work in order to run the engine to see that it doesn´t have any problems. But after this we believe in the filosofy of removing everething from the engine and the car that isn´t necesary for them operation. we removed a lot wire and replace switches carefully, back angle sensor by example and others, in order to keep the car light and without innecesary stuff. I think our engine problem is related to electronic stuff with MAP sensor or with the hoses that it use.
well people take care and get relax and enjoy
Alfonso Ochoa
01-09-2003, 07:38 PM
Hi, first of all thank you very much for all the help with our engine troubles.
Second, you don't need a key swtch assembly, you just need a 3,9 volts zener diode and 600 ohms (not sure about that, maybe it's 3 Kohms) to simulate the key switch.
I think our engine's problems is a matter o the fuel circuit. Today we saw that the injectors were not spraying fuel. We check the fuel pump and it was ok. Then I did the Honda Manual test for the injectors and they look ok, they have the 12V when you turn the switch to on, and you can see the pulses that the ECY where sending to them. We finally believed that maybe the injectors are stuck. We'll check that tomorrow. If you think of something else, please let us know.
Thank all of you again, we really appreciate this, bye, Alfonso Ochoa
Scott Wordley
01-10-2003, 07:44 AM
I thought I'd try and get this topic back on the thread which it started. In terms of Monash engine development, we have focused more on engine tuning rather than engine developments. Here is a quick rundown on our 2002 engine:
Engine: Honda CBR 600 F3
Engine Management: Autronic SM2 ( One of the best value engine management computers available, just ask R.I.T). Probably the best feature of this ECU is the Auto tune option for fuel ( requires O2 sensor).
Intake System: Carbon fibre intake manifold. Billet aluminium barrell throttle body incorporating restrictor.
Exhaust system: 4 into 1 stainless steel extractors, custom straight through muffler.
Cooling system: Twin dual pass radiators with ducted thermo fans. Electric water pump with electronic controller.
With this setup we have achieved 80 hp @ 12,000 rpm and 58 Nm @ 8,500 rpm, with 50 Nm available from 5,000 - 11,000 rpm.
Like I said, we've found most of our gains have come from time spent on the dyno ( especially tuning the fuel curve properly), rather than any internal engine development.
We'd love to hear what power and torque figures other teams are getting.
Regards,
Scott "Maverick" Wordley &
Roan "Goose" Lyddy-Meaney
MOnash FSAE Wingmen
David Money
01-10-2003, 09:10 AM
67 at the wheels at 02 competition on a stock F4i with a $250 piggyback system. We did a crude intake and a very tuned exhaust that allowed us to lower the engine by 3". By the way we only spent 1 full day of dyno testing to get the AF ratio steady accross the power band. http://fsae.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
Alfonso Ochoa
01-10-2003, 05:14 PM
Hi, this is Alfonso from Venezuela. Just to tell you guys that the engine started today and it's responding really good. Today we dismount the fuel injection body, clean it, check its contacts and it work ok. Plus, we had a failure in the fuel pump relay and it was killing it sometimes, don't know why.
About the faulty response, we don't know what it was but today the engine behaved really well about response, we surely has a misscontact in one of the control sensors (TPS or MAP).
Again, thank you very much for all your help (bam bam, david money and wizard), it was really helpful, let's keep in touch, bye,
Alfonso Ochoa V.
Bam Bam
01-10-2003, 07:03 PM
Nice work guys I'll see you at the competion. Hope I was able to help
It appears luck has gone my way too our dyno is now up and running so I'll be out makin some mad horspower soon. (be afraid be very afraid)
any issues let me know but it sounds like you guys have it undercontrol.
Good luck
Wizard
01-16-2003, 03:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alfonso Ochoa:
you don't need a key swtch assembly, you just need a 3,9 volts zener diode and 600 ohms (not sure about that, maybe it's 3 Kohms)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Does anyone have more info on this? Has anyone successfully simulated the key switch signal or is this just theory?
Alfonso Ochoa
01-16-2003, 04:00 PM
Yes wizard, we did it and it worked perfect. Email me and I'll give more information. Bye
cabezota311@hotmail.com
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